Official Barry Harris Thread

**Tal_175** · 08-01-2018, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by don_oz

Here's some basic stuff, i tried to put together, probably not the best explanations but hope you guys find it useful!

Update your browser to use Google Drive - Google Drive Help

Thanks. Looks good. One thing I noticed is that in the beginning of the blues handout, in the section where scale outline is shown.
Bar 11 is |G E7|. The scale shown is GMaj up. But that doesn't highlight the G# in E7. I think BH rule in this situation is running from F# down to G#. See 33th bar of Indiana.
I played through the fist 4 bar "running the changes" examples. I like them.

**don_oz** · 08-01-2018, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by Tal_175

Thanks. Looks good. One thing I noticed is that in the beginning of the blues handout, in the section where scale outline is shown.
Bar 11 is |G E7|. The scale shown is GMaj up. But that doesn't highlight the G# in E7. I think BH rule in this situation is running from F# down to G#. See 33th bar of Indiana.
I played through the fist 4 bar "running the changes" examples. I like them.

skip to around 4.35, Barry says the scale outline for the blues, that's where I got it from.

Thanks for the feedback! I'm glad you're getting some use out of it.

Cheers,
Oz

**Tal_175** · 08-01-2018, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by don_oz

skip to around 4.35, Barry says the scale outline for the blues, that's where I got it from.

Thanks for the feedback! I'm glad you're getting some use out of it.

Cheers,
Oz

Yes that's how the book shows the 11'th bar of blues too. But the chord shown for the 11th bar in this case is IMaj7 or |IMaj7 VIMin7|. In the video, I believe these are the implied chords. But in the hand out chords shown for bar 11 are |IMaj7 VI7| which calls for a slightly different scale outline that showcases the 3rd of VI7.

**Tal_175** · 08-01-2018, 07:47 AM

Just like the chords 7 and 8 in the handout (G E7). Scale outline is G major played in the the 3rd of E7. Bar 11 has the same chord changes in the handout but the chords played in one bar instead of 2.

**don_oz** · 08-01-2018, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by Tal_175

Just like the chords 7 and 8 in the handout (G E7). Scale outline is G major played in the the 3rd of E7. Bar 11 has the same chord changes in the handout but the chords played in one bar instead of 2.

ahh okay i understand what you mean, I guess I wanted it to be how Barrry says it in the video. Thanks for the insight!

**christianm77** · 08-01-2018, 08:01 AM

I tend to run G7 down to G# from the F

Gives Bm7b5 E7

More than one ways to do it

Barry also uses Bbo7 - A7 to A#

**ragman1** · 08-01-2018, 01:53 PM

Just musing...

I think I've yet to hear a guitarist of note really employ some Barry Harris ideas in any way that people listening exclaim 'Wow, that was good/interesting/new etc etc! How did he do that?'

Open to correction.

**christianm77** · 08-01-2018, 01:57 PM

What do you tend to think when you hear Roni Ben Hur, the Grassos etc?

**christianm77** · 08-01-2018, 01:58 PM

Or James Jamerson on bass for that matter

**Tal_175** · 08-01-2018, 02:13 PM

I think a lot of what BH teaches is bebop in a way that's closer to how the original bebop gang thought about this music and played it.
Also many things he teaches are not meant to be played literally, they are rather starting points in ones own exploration of the bebop language and meant to be personalized. Examples of such things are half step rules, chromatics, 5-4-3-2 type phrases, borrowing.
Emphasis on the 6th chords and passing diminished chords were common place during swing and early bebop.
My point is people who learn and practice BH stuff do not necessary need to have distinct Barry Harris'ness in the way they play. Of course you can personally study Barry Harris's music and apply these concepts in the way he individualized them. But that's not a goal for everyone who studies his teachings.

**don_oz** · 08-01-2018, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Just musing...

I think I've yet to hear a guitarist of note really employ some Barry Harris ideas in any way that people listening exclaim 'Wow, that was good/interesting/new etc etc! How did he do that?'

Open to correction.

Warming up barry harris chops for the workshop in london next week..
I haven't heard any guitarist in london play stuff like this. There's one guitarist named Ofer Landsberg who was one of barry's students here in London, who's hot on this stuff but other than that, no one i've heard plays that stuff.

**tamirgal** · 08-01-2018, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by don_oz

Nice!
Enjoy the workshop.

**Vladan** · 08-01-2018, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

What do you tend to think when you hear Roni Ben Hur, the Grassos etc?

Don't know if I've ever listened to Ben Hur.
For (Pasquale) Grasso I tend to think what many people on this forum (claimed to) think about Ben Eunson.

**ragman1** · 08-01-2018, 06:18 PM

I saw Ben Hur. More than once. As for Pasquale Grasso, he's Italian. Probably everything he does sounds like Barry Harris, whether he means to or not

**wzpgsr** · 08-01-2018, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

I saw Ben Hur. More than once. As for Pasquale Grasso, he's Italian. Probably everything he does sounds like Barry Harris, whether he means to or not

What does that even mean?

**ragman1** · 08-01-2018, 07:10 PM

Well, Ben Hur is also the title of a movie, you see. It's a pun on the name Ben Hur. With Pasquale, I find how he plays a bit lyrical for my taste, a bit, shall we say, extravagant, which rather reminds me of the Italian character, all that arm-waving and issimo, and so on.

That's basically the drift of it. Naturally it's a rather subjective view so I wouldn't expect everyone to share it. Especially if they've never heard of Ben Hur, the movie.

(That would be the original, incidentally, not the remake which really shouldn't have been made at all. Dreadful).

**ragman1** · 08-01-2018, 10:23 PM

Ah, you've seen it too!

(I meant the Charlton Heston one, of course. I forgot the 1925 silent version which was also excellent)

Xhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX90wV6iUPIX

**wzpgsr** · 08-01-2018, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by rlrhett

Personally, I would like to hear his take on the discussion just a few posts above. In his opinion does BH think of the dim/6 scale as a harmonic device separate from single line improvisation? As noted above, in the DVD BH says he has a "special" scale for playing over "minor". That turns out to be the dim/min6 scale. However, nowhere else (at least in the first set of DVD's) does he seem to use his dim/6/min6 scales for single note lines. Does BH suggest working out changes of a song by playing the dim/min6 scale over the dominant chords (from the important minor) or the dim/maj6 scale over major cords, or even the dim/dom and dim/minb7 scales? Or was that an exception for emphasizing a minor tonal center?

This guys videos are great. In the latest he does in fact explain that Barry uses the minor 6 diminished scale in lines. First part of the video, featuring What Is This Thing Called Love, works diminished lines over the G-7b5 - C7b9 before moving to F-6dim melodic ideas over the Fm.

**christianm77** · 08-02-2018, 03:57 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Well, Ben Hur is also the title of a movie, you see. It's a pun on the name Ben Hur. With Pasquale, I find how he plays a bit lyrical for my taste, a bit, shall we say, extravagant, which rather reminds me of the Italian character, all that arm-waving and issimo, and so on.

That's basically the drift of it. Naturally it's a rather subjective view so I wouldn't expect everyone to share it. Especially if they've never heard of Ben Hur, the movie.

(That would be the original, incidentally, not the remake which really shouldn't have been made at all. Dreadful).

Eh? Ok.

No I would say you are never hearing something new per se with these players, but that’s not the point. They are world class at a certain thing.

It not the point so much for me. It’s more like studying baroque counterpoint. It doesn’t mean a composer will end up writing pastiche Bach for a living. Brad Mehldau went to Barry’s workshops back in the 90s iirc and he’s not playing bop (although he certainly can.)

I’m at a weird crossroads with my playing. I feel I’ve got to a point where I play bebop competently and that’s largely thanks to Barry’s materials which I also teach to others.

In terms of what I do now, it’s not so clear. A lot of London straight ahead players do the tribute band thing because it’s easier to sell. But I literally just want to play jazz in my own voice, whatever that is.

I suppose it’s daft to expect people to pay money to hear that lol.

**don_oz** · 08-02-2018, 04:21 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Eh? Ok.

No I would say you are never hearing something new per se with these players, but that’s not the point. They are world class at a certain thing.

It not the point so much for me. It’s more like studying baroque counterpoint. It doesn’t mean a composer will end up writing pastiche Bach for a living. Brad Mehldau went to Barry’s workshops back in the 90s iirc and he’s not playing bop (although he certainly can.)

I’m at a weird crossroads with my playing. I feel I’ve got to a point where I play bebop competently and that’s largely thanks to Barry’s materials which I also teach to others.

In terms of what I do now, it’s not so clear. A lot of London straight ahead players do the tribute band thing because it’s easier to sell. But I literally just want to play jazz in my own voice, whatever that is.

I suppose it’s daft to expect people to pay money to hear that lol.

About the London thing, I get you. Unless you're backed by giles Peterson or you play afro beat/dance/groove stuff it's hard to get jazz gigs. I have a band that takes Turkish and Greek, and some balkaln traditional tunes and we put some modern harmony over it, play modal and it's really hard to get gigs, it's been almost two years. London scene is dominated by the same people, they're great don't get me wrong but the scene for straight ahead isn't as prolific as it was even 3 years ago. Just my opinion, sorry for going off topic.

**christianm77** · 08-02-2018, 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by don_oz

About the London thing, I get you. Unless you're backed by giles Peterson or you play afro beat/dance/groove stuff it's hard to get jazz gigs. I have a band that takes Turkish and Greek, and some balkaln traditional tunes and we put some modern harmony over it, play modal and it's really hard to get gigs, it's been almost two years. London scene is dominated by the same people, they're great don't get me wrong but the scene for straight ahead isn't as prolific as it was even 3 years ago. Just my opinion, sorry for going off topic.

That’s hilarious, that’s what I was playing last night, a few Longas, a bit of Balkan stuff, and a fair amount of modern jazz wankery. Do you know Shirley Smart by any chance?

Re: modern jazz. I think it’s a bit of a clique, but I know most of the scene and they’re mostly really cool people. The trick with the 606 and places like that AFAIK is getting on the radar. There’s a lot of hanging out and networking for getting these gigs.... personally I think it’s on having a good strong project and pushing the hell out of it. You need to be really persistent as well as having a strong project.

**christianm77** · 08-02-2018, 04:49 AM

The other thing is there are a LOT of really good jazz guitarists in London right now. Some of whom are relatively obscure but always working because they are great sidemen, some of whom are great and also very good at self promoting and band leading, and some of whom who but also appear to be getting a strong PR push that may last a limited time till the next ‘rising star’ comes along.

And quite a few who are great but end up teaching.

Every pro has to find their niche in their ecosystem.... my professional niche is/was playing 30s/40s swing guitar for a long time - beats the usual top 40 covers, but now I want to get into something a bit more interesting...

There are people out there earning decent money playing interesting gigs. The secret is in the admin and the office work. That’s the boring truth.....

**christianm77** · 08-02-2018, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by don_oz

Warming up barry harris chops for the workshop in london next week..
I haven't heard any guitarist in london play stuff like this. There's one guitarist named Ofer Landsberg who was one of barry's students here in London, who's hot on this stuff but other than that, no one i've heard plays that stuff.

I’ll see you in class.

**ragman1** · 08-02-2018, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Eh? Ok.

No I would say you are never hearing something new per se with these players, but that’s not the point. They are world class at a certain thing.

It not the point so much for me. It’s more like studying baroque counterpoint. It doesn’t mean a composer will end up writing pastiche Bach for a living. Brad Mehldau went to Barry’s workshops back in the 90s iirc and he’s not playing bop (although he certainly can.)

I’m at a weird crossroads with my playing. I feel I’ve got to a point where I play bebop competently and that’s largely thanks to Barry’s materials which I also teach to others.

In terms of what I do now, it’s not so clear. A lot of London straight ahead players do the tribute band thing because it’s easier to sell. But I literally just want to play jazz in my own voice, whatever that is.

I suppose it’s daft to expect people to pay money to hear that lol.

Thanks.

I can hear what they're doing, of course, but I don't always warm to it. It's a personal thing (or at least that's the get-out clause; I'm not always sure that it is an entirely subjective thing) but I prefer the rather 'flat' sound of jazz guitar a la Wes, Pass, Eddie Diehl, and so on. To me, that's authentic. I find a lot of new stuff too fiddly. Nicely played but probably over-technical, I don't know.

Fact is, I think some players are just naturally better than others. They communicate better, they impact more. They draw the listener along with them more. I don't find Grasso that interesting, to be honest. I also don't quite know how much he's done and I think his sources are too various. I find myself watching him rather objectively rather than simply enjoying his playing. I find myself feeling distanced from it, if you see what I mean.

Re. finding your own voice, I think that's a two-edged sword. Play nice bop and people will rally. Play what you find attractive to you, in a style natural to you, and they may not. To be somewhat philosophical about it, it has a lot to do with how well one knows oneself first. Any voice has to start with oneself, at the centre. If one hasn't got that then how can they find themselves musically?

Also, the one thing that stops people thinking originally is that they've accepted so many ideas from others for so long. One ought to find a way of utilising ideas from 'outside' without becoming a mere copyist. I always shrink a bit when I hear people saying 'I want to play like so-and-so'. I understand it but one doesn't want to end up being a mere imitator. Imitation and originality don't go together.

I'm not sure one can deliberately construct one's own voice anyway, it's one of those things that finds you. It evolves, it comes, and one day it's there.

**don_oz** · 08-02-2018, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

That’s hilarious, that’s what I was playing last night, a few Longas, a bit of Balkan stuff, and a fair amount of modern jazz wankery. Do you know Shirley Smart by any chance?

Re: modern jazz. I think it’s a bit of a clique, but I know most of the scene and they’re mostly really cool people. The trick with the 606 and places like that AFAIK is getting on the radar. There’s a lot of hanging out and networking for getting these gigs.... personally I think it’s on having a good strong project and pushing the hell out of it. You need to be really persistent as well as having a strong project.

I hear what you're saying man, my project that I co-lead got a gig at Lancaster jazz Fest in September, probably the biggest gig I will play to date, super excited for that. Just gotta keep pushing it!