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G A B C D E F E D C B A G#
Originally Posted by Sam b
C D E F G A Bb A G F E D C#
You could just put the straight scale on, but these are more diatonic to the prevailing key. People do both actually.
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12-14-2022 12:23 PM
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im treating the E7 and A7 like minor ii vs
Bm7b5 E7
Bm7b5 relates to G7
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and so for this - it refers back to your video? the Bm7b5 being the arpeggio based on the third of G7?
and then with the A7, you're thinking Em7b5 A7 so again the arpeggio based on the third of C7?
Some day I hope to be able to think that quickly harmonically when I'm looking at a tune, but it seems so beyond me now. Especially altering the chords so they relate to other chords ie: adding b5 to the minor ii in a ii v to suggest a whole other dom7.
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Yep basically. Originally Posted by Sam b
Takes a while to get that relationship dialled in its true. Think - backdoor dominant is my advice. dominant a whole step down, then raise the root by a half step. Think about where you are going, not so much what chord you are on.
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing you. (Imagine that, and on this forum!) In fact, that sounds crazy cool. I just wanted to make sure I understood. Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
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So when you are playing with sisters to imply the resolution to a minor, or secondary dominant, or whatever, what did BH want you to practice if you only had one bar? Would he have you only play DOWN to the b9 rather than UP? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Ok so why would one go to backdoor dominants in this scenario? Like what is it about seeing the E7 in that progression that makes you go there? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Yeah you'd play down to the third of the dominant (from the seventh) Originally Posted by rlrhett
So G7 into E7 for instance, "G7 down to the third of E7"
F E D C B A G#
BTW Barry never said 'b9' - I'm using his exact words BTW. You can interpret those notes as b9 , A harmonic minor etc; but that is EXACTLY what he said in workshops to the best of my memory.
NB: really it's a #1, right? Enharmonically, and it's a leading tone, it want to move up to A, TI DO. G#-->ALast edited by Christian Miller; 12-14-2022 at 05:02 PM. Reason: Corrected typo (d harmonic minor instead of a harmonic minor)
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If you have to look for a theoretical reason, it's one of the brothers and sisters, or a sub for the iim7b5 Originally Posted by Sam b
Barry was big into not treating each chord as an island, but part of an overall tonality. He always used to say Cm7 in Ab is not the same as Cm7 in Bb, for example.
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No worries. It was fun to chart it out like that. Originally Posted by rlrhett
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Thanks so much, Christian. You've been very helpful, and I'm always amazed how much you give to this site.
So, because E7 would be going to Am diatonically in the the key of C, then the ii for that V would have a flat 5? Because it's a minor ii-5.
And then because that minor flat 5 is a "sister" (which is a term I'll have to look up) to the backdoor dominant with the root raised up a half step, you can play that. Or it's also a sister to G7?
I will need a nap shortly.
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After doing a quick search on the term I think I'm using "sister" here incorrectly. I guess I just meant "substitution."
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Well think of Am the minor of C (same key signature ie none) so what do you do to construct a dominant on the 5th degree? You need alter one note to get that major third of the E7, raise the G to a G# (A harmonic minor) Originally Posted by Sam b
It’s the same thing but coming from a different angle.
We also use G7 because it’s related to the Bm7b5 chord -
B D F A = Bm7b5
G B D F A = G9
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Brothers and sisters afaik are the set of four dominant chords related by minor thirds found in for example the diminished scale. (There’s a whole Barry Harris spiel about this) Originally Posted by Sam b
So G7, E7, Db7 and Bb7 for example (G half whole scale)
these chords can all sub in for each other although in the context of C major E7 is the least used, although it is used to get intoLast edited by Christian Miller; 12-14-2022 at 05:35 PM.
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Heres’ a couple great videos on families of triads built from the diminished chord as chord subs (instead of using the full 4 note dominant 7th built from the dim chord, just use the triad name after lowering a note of the dim chord by a half step OR the min 6 triad that is the “6 on the 5” of the same dominant triad built from raising the note of the dim by a half step). GOOD STUFF! Really basic Barry 101 materials using the triads built from the family of 4:
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The "Things I've learned from Chris and Thomas" have been delightful.
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Another one for Barrynistas:
Scale outline for Take the A Train? Specifically, what do you outline over the D7b5 (or D9#11, or whatever you want to call it)?
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I would play the D 7b5 diminished scale up and down which puts the chord notes of the D7b5 on the strong beats ("rhythmically correct" as Barry would put it): Originally Posted by rlrhett
So on 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 play D E F# G Ab Bb C Bb Ab F# E D.
The D dominant flat five / diminished scale consists of D7b5 (D F# Ab C) and Eo7 (E G Bb C#).
It is also a whole tone scale plus the tritone from the secondary dominant of D (A7: C# G).
Alternatively you could also play the whole tone scale (D E F# Ab Bb C D), which is used in the original Strayhorn arrangement.
(Now Christian can chime in and correct my enharmonic errors LOL
)
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Why not add the 'passing' 7th degree taken from the related diminished as well to fill out the two bars? It then leads back perfectly to the root of the D-7 that occurs in bar 5: Originally Posted by Bop Head
I would play the D 7b5 diminished scale up and down which puts the chord notes of the D7b5 on the strong beats ("rhythmically correct" as Barry would put it):
So on 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 play D E F# G Ab Bb C Bb Ab F# E D.
The D dominant flat five / diminished scale consists of D7b5 (D F# Ab C) and Eo7 (E G Bb C#).
It is also a whole tone scale plus the tritone from the secondary dominant of D (A7: C# G).
Alternatively you could also play the whole tone scale (D E F# Ab Bb C D), which is used in the original Strayhorn arrangement.
(Now Christian can chime in and correct my enharmonic errors LOL)
D E F# G Ab Bb C C# | D Db C Bb Ab G F# E |.
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Originally Posted by PMB
Because the scale outlines à la Barry Harris go either (one bar)
1 & 2 & 3 & 4
or
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 (two bars).
I think the pauses help to internalize the overall structure of a tune.
This is lesson #1 from Chris Parks:
EDIT: Munich based Stephan Kramer who studied with Barry Harris as well mentions in the very beginning of the following video that the aim is to feel two bar phrases. In this exercise he even only goes up to the fifth (instead of up to the seventh) and back, ending already on the 1 of the second bar (outling only the basic triad instead of the seventh chord).
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Nope, yet spelling’s fine. Originally Posted by Bop Head
I would play the D 7b5 diminished scale up and down which puts the chord notes of the D7b5 on the strong beats ("rhythmically correct" as Barry would put it):
So on 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 play D E F# G Ab Bb C Bb Ab F# E D.
The D dominant flat five / diminished scale consists of D7b5 (D F# Ab C) and Eo7 (E G Bb C#).
It is also a whole tone scale plus the tritone from the secondary dominant of D (A7: C# G).
Alternatively you could also play the whole tone scale (D E F# Ab Bb C D), which is used in the original Strayhorn arrangement.
(Now Christian can chime in and correct my enharmonic errors LOL)
Barry said once he hadn’t used the 7b5-Dim that much. He often talked about the whole tone scale and this is the choice that Ellington made on the tune. Monk also really liked whole tone. Barry had quite a wide range of whole tone patterns he taught and which I should know but I don’t.
7b5-dim is a cool sound. At the moment I like to arpeggiate it in drop 2s. It’s also the same scale as Messiaen mode 3, which Allan Holdsworth used a lot, incidentally. Though he probably got it from Slonimsky.
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You can use regular dominant here (although you lose the #11 sound). I remember Barry saying you don’t worry about extensions when soloing - those are up to you. Originally Posted by rlrhett
The most obvious choice for me is minor’s dominant - Am6-dim on D7.
Tbh I think it’s always worth applying what you know first. You should first work towards learning a repertoire of hip bop things derived from the various triads, chords, interval patterns and added note rules* that you can do on dominant and m6 and should be practicing applying them everywhere you can. That’s the strength of Barry’s changes approach - you are using the same stuff in different contexts. That’s how you develop fluency.
Then the whole tone patterns and stuff come in as a bit of seasoning.
*found in DVD i or Roni Ben Hur’s ‘talk jazz’ for exampleLast edited by Christian Miller; 04-10-2023 at 03:04 AM.
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To me the original melody dictates here. The Ab is very prominent: The first phrase ends on it! Originally Posted by Christian Miller
There is this chromatic line from the fifth of C to the flat five of D7 to the fifth of Dm7.
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It is a unique feature of the song. Musically I think you are absolutely right. Pedagogically I would not choose these scales to start with…. I’ll try and give my reasons … Originally Posted by Bop Head
(Btw the strayhorn chord for me is the C+ voicing on a D7. A lot of stuff comes from that voicing in the history of jazz… )
However, that said, I would recommend practicing it first using the dominant scale. The reason for that being I remember him advising us not to worry about the melody on Cherokee when soloing and play a Ab7 scale in the A section (Parker does this in fact). That said I never worked on A train with him. Maybe someone else has better info and I’ve certainly been wrong before!
The other reason is I think this is that Barry was keen to bring things back to the Dom scale, because for those following his system that’s what we will have done the most work on building lines and so on. That’s the whole rationale as I understand it behind ‘minors five’ running the C7 down to the third of A7 stuff for instance. It’s to maximise the utility of the dominant scale which is what we have the most stuff to say on. Other scales are more like spice - at least at first.
(I’m talking about the improv stuff here btw not the harmony stuff)
in performance, I can’t really imagine Barry overlooking the exotic quality of that chord. I’m sure he would have played the G# in his lines. I expect he would have enjoyed your scale choices on this section.
but is that what he would say have taught as a basic scale outline on A train?
In practice I II7 V7 a sections are very common, it’s worth getting used to the move with basic scale choices anyway.
a lot of the chat on this thread is regarding Barry’s harmonic approach while at least 75% of what I learned from him was the construction and application of language, and this is what taught me to play bop fluently. Fwiw. So that’s were I’m coming from.
Again it’s worth reiterating Barry’s improv classes were completely separate from the harmony class - I know I’ve said that several times but I think that’s really important and may not be clear from third party sources. In this class the focus was on the dominant scale much of the time, as this is the most important chord in Barry’s estimation ‘let the dominant dominate’. The Howard Rees DVD’s lay everything out in a very clear and helpful way. You can learn to play bop well just by applying the stuff in DVD set I in my opinion if you apply this stuff thoroughly (iirc the minor scale isn’t even discussed that much). I would take that as a syllabus and master everything in it before even thinking about the second set.
To (probably badly) quote Bruce Lee, ‘I fear not the man who has practiced a thousand punches but the man who has practiced one punch a thousand times’
I find a lot of chat here about BH is very technical here tbh and represents, at least for me, many years of practice.
the natural tendency of the internet is toward information overload. There’s so much on Chris’s channel etc and on this forum. As we can no longer study with Barry himself and the internet has exploded with (often very good) content about his teaching this is somewhat inevitable.
So with all that in mind and bearing in mind my limitations and experience, I’d say to a learner - get shit hot at playing bop lines using dominant scales and we’ll worry about #11s later.Last edited by Christian Miller; 04-10-2023 at 05:24 AM. Reason: For pompousness
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Btw playing around with it I really enjoy Am6-dim on the D7. It’s nice going between G# dim and Am6 in various ways. (The Do7 also makes an interesting harmony for that melody note.)
I think this and the whole tone scale would be good shouts once the dominant scale has been mastered on this type of chord progLast edited by Christian Miller; 04-10-2023 at 05:27 AM.
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Guitarist Rick Stone another BH student (who died from brain cancer six years ago) had a lesson on Vimeo on a whole tone patterns originating from Dizzy. (Unfortunately all his lessons -- those on BH stuff as well -- are deleted over there, I think I downloaded then once and might re-upload them on YT if I find them). I think I saw the same thing on a PDF by a Japanese pianist who had studied with Barry as well: Originally Posted by Christian Miller
You can think of the whole tone scale as consisting of parallel major thirds, e.g. C whole tone: C-E, D-F#, E-G#, Gb-Bb, Ab-C, Bb-D.
Now play those thirds up-down resp. down-up and insert chromatic passing tones (play as eights):
C-E-C-B-Bb-D-Bb-A-Ab-C-Ab-G-Gb
or
E-C-E-Eb-D-Bb-D-Db-C-Ab-C-B-Bb
or
C-E-C-C#-D-F#-D-D#-E-G#-E-F-F#
or
E-C-E-F-F#-D-F#-G-G#-E-G#-A-Bb
And here a video I just discovered on Rick Stone's YT channel from a tribute concert which IIRC served to raise money for Rick's medical treatment:
Barry Harris teaching "These are the Things I Love" to Harvey S on the bandstand.
EDIT: I just remembered that I recently bought Roni Ben-Hur's "Talk Jazz Guitar" and there are different examples of exercises regarding the whole tone scale but the one I mentioned above is not in there. I haven't looked much into the book yet as I am very much dissapointed by the look of it typographically. Someone please send him a copy of Elaine Gould's "Behind Bars"! Also there is not much in it that is not covered by Chris Parks (who came to Barry's workshops via lessons from Roni), Shan Verma and Isaak Raz. But 20 bucks is an acceptable loss ...Last edited by Bop Head; 04-10-2023 at 02:12 PM.
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