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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
While I am at interviews, here are a few with people that have to do with BH somehow:
Charles McPherson was one of his earliest students:
Pianist Howard Rees is the producer of the BH Workshop DVDs and publisher of Alan Kingstone’s BH guitar book
Brian De Lima wrote his dissertation on BH:
Pianist Isaak Raz has a YT channel on Barry Harris as well and went to the NYC workshops whenever possible.
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10-08-2022 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
and indeed wes who made an early career copying mister min6 chord himself.
i a bit tired of hearing guys play a G13 as the last chord on alone together, and feeling so clever and smug about it. meh.
am i turning into reg??
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Originally Posted by djg
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
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Originally Posted by djg
I am a fan of the smug IV13 end chord and I’m not ashamed about it haha. Anyway, blame the bass player, I was just playing a Dm6/9 bro ;-)
No what you say is generally what I’ve found in my own listening. I do think there’s a slight confusion regarding minor that is a product of the history, but that’s another topic really.
Actually it was PB who flagged it when I did it and it’s a common theme in his teaching I think… I think his aim is to sensitise the students to the specifics of the harmony rather than law down the law. A lot of these things are sensitive to the song in question. It’s easy to generalise too much.
Many bop and post-bop players simply mix minors in lines - melodic, harmonic, blues, natural. Wes is a case in point. Other players can be more specific. Thinking about blue Mitchell on Nica’s dream here, always melodic minor, as opposed to the Junior Cook who mixes it up freely and includes blues and natural minor ideas and on a tune which explicitly states the min(maj7) sound in the comping chords. Wes does the same when he plays the tune.
It’s almost like the mixer uppers like Wes and Junior are more interested in playing good melodic lines than harmonically correct patterns and that not every note in a melody has to have harmonic implications or agree with the underlying chords exactly. But of course this is mad ;-)
But even in unexpected places you can still find exceptions to the m6 tonic chord rule in linear harmony. IIRC Django plays a prominent b7 on Douce Ambience for instance.
As with all trite rules about music history, actual music stubbornly refuses to conform to stereotype. Which is not to say these guidelines can’t be useful sometimes.
However this is probably much more a stylistic factor in comping chords. It takes me right out of the style to hear a m7 tonic chord in a swing or old school bop gig. Otoh m6 sounds wrong for a Coltrane style modal tune imo.
I’ll look it up but someone mentioned a story about Bird preferring plain minor chords in comping because it allowed him more melodic freedom. Maybe you know this one?Last edited by Christian Miller; 10-08-2022 at 08:24 AM.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
blue mitchell was another "ear" player, maybe that's the reason he stuck to the obvious MMness of nica's dream.
i too think the liberal mix and match approach in minor is a thing of the generation after BH. barry was heavy into classical voice-leading which is why he didnt really dig the parallel movments that wes employed. to BH it probably sounded like moving power chords. sonny stitt from the same generation as barry used the min6/dim movements on so what with miles, it sounds totally out of place and miles hated it. so it goes both ways.
dunno about bird preferring plain minor chords.
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Originally Posted by djg
Look, I don’t get out much ok?
i actually feel I’ve gone this way too, in the past, which might be why I enjoy dwelling on the differences and stylistic aspects of different eras.
blue mitchell was another "ear" player, maybe that's the reason he stuck to the obvious MMness of nica's dream.
Sorry, *ahem* - that’s jolly interesting
i too think the liberal mix and match approach in minor is a thing of the generation after BH. barry was heavy into classical voice-leading which is why he didnt really dig the parallel movments that wes employed. to BH it probably sounded like moving power chords. sonny stitt from the same generation as barry used the min6/dim movements on so what with miles, it sounds totally out of place and miles hated it. so it goes both ways.
Yeah, interesting about Barry, I don’t feel I know enough to comment, but it’s perhaps worth bearing in mind Barry does not equate with all of bebop, rather a dialect of it.
dunno about bird preferring plain minor chords.
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Originally Posted by djg
(and later recognized it in Monk’s playing in a documentary I watched.)
It is moving into the III–7 chord (= V6 a.k.a. “sixth on the fifth”) chromatically from the II–7 via bIII–7 over a written I chord.
So it seems Barry was not against parallel movements.
Anyway those Polish videos show that he had many more tricks up his sleeve for harmony than just sixth (resp. seventh) diminished, e.g. those walk-ups of diatonic seventh chords in major that can e.g. be used to modulate to a major key a minor third above (that’s in the Lincoln Center videos as well but Tomasz Bialowolski really breaks in down in a very understandable way.) The latter is easily adaptable to shell chords (1–3–7 resp. 1–7–3) on guitar. If I now only had a tune that modulates up a minor third in the bridge .
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Hey rithett... it's pretty obvious that bophead can't really cover jazz and his somewhat limited understanding and probable playing skills of jazz are what they are.... Which is not bad or good, it's his personal business.... but don't take lessons from amateurs who can cover what they are talking about...
All min. tunes are either Nat. Min., Harmonic min. or melodic min. or versions of.
With Black Orpheus it's standard Natural Minor and the use of Har. Min. to get the The E7b9 chord, the V7b9 or Dominant chord function back to the Tonic Amin. Standard Tonic, subdominant and dominant harmonic functions.... standard or traditional Harmony.
Soloing ... should follow the same harmonic motion. You need to be able to cover this standard basic vanilla approach long before you start to try and get into BH concepts. BH did. LOL
Generally the next step would be embellishment approach which generally ends with the use of #9 on the E7b9 chord and rest of the notes from A Har. Min. A B C D E F G G# A.
Then you would become aware of how to use Melodic min. Which does also take some work. (the djg reference to me,LOL). You could do much worse.
But you need to be able to cover the vanilla approaches first... I mean play the coda what do you get.
BH isn't for beginners or players who can't already play.... I mean if you have trouble playing standards or newer jazz tunes... or any tune in a Jazz Style, your not ready to try and play in BH style.
Another note..... Min7th chords are great choice for playing... they have standard harmonic organization, just like Min 6th chords. I mean when you actually become a better jazz player.... you play all the chords and generally they are used in CHORD PATTERNS ..... Typically you'll use most chords in just one tune. It's very common to use
20 to 30 chords playing through one tune with just a few soloist.
Take a Bop tune, which seems to be the main focus of many.... what do you play. Same chords cover and over.
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The most important lesson I ever got from my guitar teacher (who was world class, a master jazz and classical player, got to meet Oscar Ghiglia a couple times with him, one time had my guitar lessons interrupted by a phone call from Johnny Smith; Benson wanted to study with him; Diorio too)—far away the most important lesson:
A great teacher imparts in the student the desire to a lifetime of learning; where the student can become their own teacher by knowing what they need to improve, organizing resources accordingly towards that learning, being efficient and diligent and patient with the process, building on simple things with an eye for the big picture, seeing how it all fits in.
Furthermore: just because we intellectually understand something doesn’t mean we know it; we only know it by doing it; we have to do it a million times, correctly, though constant repetition, over and over again.
My two cents: half the problems people have with tunes is they don’t know the workspace. I am glad I came back to this thread, because, having switched to an 8 string Brahams guitar and 8 string archtop, I because painfully aware of the terrible gaps in the workspace. Bruce Foreman once called large parts of the fingerboard “no man’s land” for many players.
I am now shedding the shit out of Drop 2-drop 3-Drop 2 and 4 on the 8 string guitar. It’s not easy. I went to see Peter Bernstein’s gig in Santa Cruz recently, and showed him my 8 string guitar and he was impressed, but said, “where the hell is the D string??”
I am resigned for the immediate period working the crap out this, because it will be worth it. I thought about about the problem systematically, and came to the conclusion I really need to learn the extent to which this 8 string guitar really is an improvement over the 6 string guitar. But, of course, understanding this is NOT knowing it.
Additional string sets available on the 8 string guitar, not possible on the 6 string guitar, for playing common chord forms/voicings
1. DROP 2: can play 4 different string sets, not just 3. So each of these forms can be played in 2 octaves.
1563
3615
5136
6351
2. Drop 3: can be played on 3 different string sets, not just 2. Also, the form that begins on the Low E string can now be played an octave up, beginning on the D string.
1635
3156
5361
6513
3. Drop 2 and 4: can be played on the 3 different string sets, not just 2. Also the form that begins that on low E string can be played an octave up, beginning on the D string.
1536 barre
3651
5163
6315 barre
B. 8 string using strings 8721: Wider VOICINGS unique to the 8 string guitar
1563
1653 (barre)
361 x
531x
53x6
6351
Dim chord (repeating pattern)
7x#52 (goes up a minor 3rd)
2x74
4x2#5
#5x47
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Originally Posted by grahambop
For all those who included a discussion about whether the min7 can serve as a tonic, thank you. It wasn't what I was asking, but I found it interesting as well. It is funny that my ear is perfectly happy to hear the min7 as a tonic, and moving from im6 to the iim7b5 (or iVm6, if you prefer) isn't as satisfying, or at least it is equally satisfying. But, of course, I'm not as steeped in the Bebop tradition as so many of you are.
Obviously running the scales over a tune isn't improvising. Frankly, improvising melodies isn't something I spend too much time doing. But the method of running the scales as a way of learning the tune, and getting under your fingers the collection of notes you can use, is something I'm beginning to love. Thanks to all of you for helping to introduce me to this technique/pedagogy.
One last question for @Christian Miller: Did I understand you correctly that sometimes in class BH would use the melodic minor instead of the min6-dim to run the scales? Skipping the maj6 and playing the maj7 does make it more musical to my ears, but I know that isn't necessarily the point of running the scales. Still, I'm interested in knowing what BH really taught.
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
melodic minor often ends up lookin like m6-dim anyway once you’ve used the added note rules and so on.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
Part of the info comes from Roni Ben Hurs book rather than Barry direct
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Just a thought... many of you BH on or off people might like some of the 70's jean-Pierre Rampal and Claude Bollings.... Suite for flue and jazz piano. I have a copy from mid 70's. Very nice and well played etc...
I remember him doing a casual thing with Oscar Peterson live also... was great.
Anyway probable wrong thread... but in the classical direction.
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So, a Rhythm Changes (I-VI7-ii-7-V7) in Barry’s 6 diminished scale of chords would be:
I6-iiim6-ivm6-ii-6? Right? (Using 6 on the 5 for the dominant 7th chords)
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To give a little back, I’ll give you my interpretation (never been to a live BH event):
The VI7 can be played as a b7dim.
There is no ii chord. You would play a IV6.
You can use the dim chord from the tonic’s M6-dim chord scale to lead back from the tonic chord.
Yay! We have:
I6-biidim-IV6-ivdim-I6
Of course there are many ways to skin the cat. I’m just leveraging the concept of using the dim chords to move from the tonic to the subdominant. This is a kind of movement that Alan Kingstone talks a lot about in his BH Harmony book.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
So, it seems you have a couple of options:
- Rhythm Changes (I-iii7-VI7-ii7-V7) using Barry Harris 6 diminished (“6 on the 5” on dominant chords) becomes: I6-V6 -iii-6-IV6-ii-6. OR: I6-V6-V°-IV6-IV°
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Important point Barry brought up once
1) early Parker never plays VI7 on Rhythm Changes
2) later Bird plays VI7 only in bar 3 and 7, never bar 1.
Check it out. It's true.
So, our basic template becomes
| Bb | F7 | Bb | F7 |
| Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb | F7 |
And the second version
| Bb | F7 | Bb G7 | F7 |
| Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb G7 | F7 |
In terms of scale outlines, you run the Bb scale down to the third of G7 in bar 3 and 7
Having a VI7 only in bar 3 transforms a 2 bar repeated turnaround into a 4 bar phrase. It makes it much more elegant, much more bop
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Today I revisited this video from the workshops at the Royal Conservatoire of The Hague which clearly demonstrates that the sounds you can get from the sixth diminished scales through Barry Harris’ concept of “borrowing notes” are rather not “vanilla”.
[Of course you have to first practice the scales of chords “vanilla” to know where the other chord’s notes that you can borrow are located on the keyboard resp. in our case on the fretboard.]
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NOTES From Labyrinth #64 (chromatic movement using the family of 4 minor 6 chords built from the Diminished, demonstrating movement of voices
Barry Harris Concepts: playing with family of moving m6 chords built from the diminished
Key of G, D7, i.e, functioning as the V7.
minor6 on the 5 of D7 = Am6
6 on th 5 of the tritone - Ebm6
Other minors: F#6 (built on the leading tone for the key), the leading tone’s minor.
The iv-minor: Cm6
Dispersion of VOICES:
A C E F#
Eb-G-Bb-C
F#-A-Db-Eb
C-Eb-G-A
Moving from Am6 6o Ebm6: the R of A moves up a half step and becomes the P5 of Ebm6. The P5 of Am6 moves down a half step and becomes the R of Ebm6. The other two notes stay the same. The 3rd of Am6 moves up a half step and becomes the P5 of F#m6. Move from the 6 of Am6 a half step becomes the P5 of the iv-minor, Cm6.
ETUDE: harmonizing the chromatic scale (D to D) using only these family of minor 6 chords and it’s related diminished, from which they are derived from
D: Diminished
Be Tritone’s Minor (Eb) or min4 (Cm)
E: 6 on the 5 (Am)
F: Dim
Gb 6 o the 5 (Am)
G: minor4 (Cm)
Ab Dim
A min4 (Cm) or 6 on the 5 (Am)
Bb Tritone’s minor (Eb)
B Dim
C Tritone’s minor (Eb)
Db F#n: min6 built on the leading tone of the key
D: Dim
Coleman Hawkins: “I don’t play chords, I play moment”. Chords are weigh stations of movement, always. CHORDS are a weigh staton of Voices moving in time.
SIMPLE CONCEPTS allow one to MOVE FAST. But you have to PRACTICE It.
So, yeah, GOOD STUFF!
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Originally Posted by NSJ
Recently I have regularly those eureka moments when I start to really visualize those voice-leadings. (Recent favorite example: root and fifths of V7 half-step up –> tritone’s minor a.k.a. bVIm6 –> all notes except 6th of tritone’s minor half-step up / 6th whole step up: VIm7 = inversion of I6.)
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Is it me, or the easiest way to harmonize a melody is that portion of the melody that is continuous, conjunctive, whole steps or whole steps, no skips or leaps, and play the skips unharmonized, outside the 6 dim system?
You can analyze a tune that way, and break it down by 6/dim subs, and look for the continuous notes, without skips, under the 6/dim chords?
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Originally Posted by NSJ
Chief Xian aTunde Adjuah (Christian Scott)
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