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Heretic! Thou shalt have no other gods before Barry Harris on this thread!
Originally Posted by Marlot
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10-03-2022 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
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Did I just read someone calling Reg out? Just about sums up this place sometimes. Frikkin star player.
The "sage" who wrote that those who can, do; those who can't, teach obviously hadn't visited an internet forum.
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Not as bad as you think. Reg was busting some chops, someone who didn’t know who he is called him out. I seriously doubt Reg was offended.
At least this thread hasn’t devolved into some US centric political diatribe!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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I was familiar with Reg's playing level when I made my comment. I'd sat through several pages of him saying BH technique is bunk because you won't use it on a gig. And more nonsense about how his perspective takes precedence over everything because he plays gigs like Graham's perfectly orchestrated BH tunes sound 'muddy' lol. Yes, BH technique is by definition 'muddy'. You can't choose how many notes to use and what register to put them because it's BH.
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Yeah I don’t really get the ‘muddy’ thing. I’ll chalk that one up to personal taste.
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It would be a false reverse conclusion that someone who can play (like Reg does — It seems to be en vogue recently to quote oneself so I quote myself from above “hell of a player”) has to be a bad teacher. Reg’s statements stay always very vague and It seems I am not the only one one who does not have a clue what he is talking about. Originally Posted by Peter C
One of the nice things about the internet and YouTube is that you can find tons of masterclasses by good players who all have the intention that someone who wants to learn from them may learn from them — the first thing that comes to my mind are some snippets from a Peter Bernstein masterclass I revisited yesterday. (The only really negative example I remember is a video of a bored and probably stoned john Scofield explaining scales and modes in the 80ies.) Even Barry Harris who was fast, strict and demanding (while always cordial) was not just throwing around terms from his personal nomenclature without further explanation.
But as I already said I am willing to dig into 10 year old posts and one day I might find out what “dorian reference” means.
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dont waste your time with the exegesis of other member's posts. Originally Posted by Bop Head
Last edited by djg; 10-04-2022 at 04:13 AM.
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I gotta agree with djg. My posts for instance are mostly me ADHD’ing about whatever BS I’m obsessed with at that time.
Ultimately there’s so much info out there now
regarding Barry Harris, or masterclasses with great players like Pete and you seem to have read and watched it all. There’s not much need to spend time puzzling out posts on forums like this tbh.
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And we are all ‘vanilla’. I guess I’m just a vanilla sort of guy. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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A new “muddy” video by “Garcia 70”
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Muddy vanilla ftw
i dunno, when I first started learning jazz guitar the teachers were always warning against including the fifth because ‘mud’
now i listen to Monk
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Possibly this is about using ‘dorian’ lines over some tunes, sometimes I prefer that sound. But I’m not a big theory guy, I don’t think too much about ‘harmonic minor’ and all that stuff, I just play what I think sounds right. I’ll play any notes over a minor chord if it sounds good, flat 6, natural 6, chromatic run, whatever. Originally Posted by Bop Head
Sometimes I come across a situation where harmonising a tune with the strict BH stuff doesn’t quite fit, there was an example I think in that ‘My Romance’ BH analysis thing I did a while back. The ‘right’ BH chord at one point was a dim chord, but it gave a flat 6 top note, when the melody demanded a ‘natural’ 6, so it wanted more of a ‘dorian’ sound, just on that one chord (I’m just going by memory here, haven’t got the stuff to hand right now). So I just tweaked the top note of the dim chord to fit, easy enough to do.
Maybe this is the kind of thing Reg meant, but of course I don’t know for sure.
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IMHO Barry who put very much emphasis on songs and melodies — think his vocal classes — would not have put a wrong sounding chord under a melody line. Originally Posted by grahambop
Maybe there was some misunderstanding about the “right” chords. I recommend the Open Studio videos on harmonizing everything with sixth chords (respectively sixth diminished scales which is not in those videos IIRC but which is a consequence). They are for piano but the ideas are easily adaptable for guitar …
… and Shan Verma’s channel YT JazzSkills. Shan is a pianist as well (and a good teacher with a lot of patience) and especially in recent months he has made a lot of videos on harmonizing tunes à la Barry. Originally Posted by Bop Head
Last edited by Bop Head; 10-04-2022 at 06:13 AM.
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Actually the tricky bar wasn't shown in the BH analysis I did, it occurs later in the tune (I did a harmonisation of the whole tune for my benefit, but I only covered the first 8 bars in the document I did). Haven't got time right now, but I will spell it out later. Basically there is a bar in My Romance where however you try and harmonise it with 6/dim (either maj6 or min6), the BH chords don't quite fit the melody. And borrowing the next note doesn't fix it either. Really it's no surprise to me, I mean why should the 6/dim scale fit every possible melodic line that's ever been written? I think Jens Larsen said the same thing once, he had an example from another tune, I forget which. Originally Posted by Bop Head
Anyway I've no doubt Barry would have a great solution that I don't know about, but I managed to find one, it's no big deal to me.
I'll explain it later, got to go out now.
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I’m a big Dead fan, so Garcia ‘70 is no insult. Originally Posted by Bop Head
“Floors” and “elevators” seem to be terms he created. What does it mean to you? I just discovered this guy, obviously, so I’ve only seen a couple videos.
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Here's the tricky bar in My Romance - bar 26 (circled). Cm7 chord with ascending melody notes G, A, Bb, C i.e. 5, 6, b7, root. Effectively this is like a Dorian line.
If you try to harmonise the melody with Eb6/dim chord scale, it gives you top (melody) notes 5, b6, b7. Can't 'borrow' a natural 6 from the 6/dim scale as there isn't one in the chord scale.
If you try with Cm6/dim, it gives you top notes 5, b6, natural 6, natural 7. So you've got the 6 available but not the b7. Can't borrow a b7 from within Cm6/dim.
You could try Bb6/dim, that sort of works, but it has a 4th in it (F) which I don't particularly like.
There is a good youtube video from 2016 of Barry playing it solo, but when he gets to that bar he doesn't really play any chords, he just plays the melody and a bass note, so that doesn't help much.
Anyway my solution was to play Eb6/dim but change the dim chord to F7, sounds fine, i.e.
xx1313 Eb6
xx3545 F7
xx5546 Eb6
xx8888 Eb6
As I said, it's no big deal to me, since it's easy enough to tweak that dim chord into something that works.
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Dark Star crashes into ashes — I was thinking about commenting his nickname here under one of his videos LOL. We should do a Barry Harris reharmonization of Ship Of Fools LOL. Originally Posted by NSJ
I’m a big Dead fan, so Garcia ‘70 is no insult. […]
Those are his terms to describe the way of contrary motion with the sixth diminished scale he has worked out on guitar. You have to go way back and start with the first videos he has done to understand his nomenclature. He has PDFs for very little doe on his website and his Patreon page as well if looking at the videos is not enough for someone. Originally Posted by NSJ
There was a time when he used to look like a civilized person LOL (with a stank face LOL)
He is into electronics in “serious music” (as it is called by the German copyright collecting society) as well.
EDIT: Listening further into the latter piece I think he would not at all be insulted by being called “Garcia 70”. It reminds me of a cross-breed between a recent British pop singer treating his piano electronically whose name I have forgotten ATM and the Dead.
EDIT: The British singer I meant is James Blake.
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Now we're going somewhere...
Mr Bop... Do you understand Maj/ Min functional harmony... Do you understand Modal Harmony.
Not classical definitions from before jazz was even played... although that will help.
If you give me a starting point I will make it simple to understand.... The Dorian reference.
I did said... The Dorian reference.... is Modal Harmonic Musical understandings. Which becomes a different Reference for understanding how Music Moves and why it moves or doesn't.
The Vanilla reference or use is not a bad thing.... I'm very Vanilla. But can also play non vanilla. They are very different. The Vanilla reference is traditional Maj/Min functional harmony. (again not bad)
Graham... it's not wrong or right to play any notes over anything. But when your in a rhythm section it can help... others playing... when one doesn't throw everything into the pot. Again not bad and is generally used with embellishment approaches to comping and soloing... But that can become another of those mud references...
And again... I'm just an average guitar player, but I can play jazz and not have to rehearse or practice to do so.
I can also easily notate out a 5 part sax soli in different styles that would reflect different styles of harmony and melodic organization. Which not a big deal, any musician could if they were taught how to.
Does anyone know any of BH's tunes... I have some of his old 2 and 3 horn chart albums some cool tunes...
Luminescence
Bullseye
And I have some of Sonny Stitts albums from the 70's with BH playing piano. Moonlight in Vermont, Blues for Duke and Yesterdays... all for Sony's playing.
A lot of smoother Monk like...LOL
Most of the albums I bought because of the other players but BH's playing sounds cool... kind of TF like which funny. LOL
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I have to check more in detail the changes in a Rogers & Hart Song Book and different fake books (tune-dex cards etc.) as they seem to differ a lot from you Real Book (?) changes. As far as I see in the R & H piano arrangement (transposed to Bb, original is in C) the changes go Originally Posted by grahambop
Here's the tricky bar in My Romance - bar 26 (circled). Cm7 chord with ascending melody notes G, A, Bb, C i.e. 5, 6, b7, root. Effectively this is like a Dorian line.
If you try to harmonise the melody with Eb6/dim chord scale, it gives you top (melody) notes 5, b6, b7. Can't 'borrow' a natural 6 from the 6/dim scale as there isn't one in the chord scale.
If you try with Cm6/dim, it gives you top notes 5, b6, natural 6, natural 7. So you've got the 6 available but not the b7. Can't borrow a b7 from within Cm6/dim.
You could try Bb6/dim, that sort of works, but it has a 4th in it (F) which I don't particularly like.
There is a good youtube video from 2016 of Barry playing it solo, but when he gets to that bar he doesn't really play any chords, he just plays the melody and a bass note, so that doesn't help much.
Anyway my solution was to play Eb6/dim but change the dim chord to F7, sounds fine, i.e.
xx1313 Eb6
xx3545 F7
xx5546 Eb6
xx8888 Eb6
As I said, it's no big deal to me, since it's easy enough to tweak that dim chord into something that works.
| C–7 C–6 C–7/Eb C–6/Eb |
and from there to
| D7 / G7 / | C7 / / / | Bb / G–[7] / | C–7 / F7 / | Bb / / / | / / / |
C–6 = A—7/b5 —> D7 makes sense but I have to check still and will let you know.
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Ok I watched the Echolls/Garcia ‘70 video. I surmise what he means by “elevator” is to be able instantly interchange intervals, dyads, triads, drop 2, drop 3, drop 2 and 4, and shell voicings, to create either parallel-oblique-contrary motion.
Again, this is what Pasquale does ALL THE TIME. People sometimes accuse him of working out a a pre—determined arrangement. Nope. It’s clear Pasquale has just really internalized what Garcia ‘70 is basically describing here. Lightbulb moment, eh?
Normally, when when hear the term she’ll voicing, we mean “R-3-7”. I presume this means “R-3-6” and the requisite inversions for “Barry People”. Or, for the “off-chord” (i.e, diminished), just a diminished triad, not a fully dim7. Is this correct?
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Everything that the big players play has been practiced and internalized before in a way. The more you shed the more freedom and spontanity you gain to apply things no matter according to what concepts you have practiced. Reg’s stuff does not come out of the blue as well for example. Originally Posted by NSJ
Ok I watched the Echolls/Garcia ‘70 video. I surmise what he means by “elevator” is to be able instantly interchange intervals, dyads, triads, drop 2, drop 3, drop 2 and 4, and shell voicings, to create either parallel-oblique-contrary motion.
Again, this is what Pasquale does ALL THE TIME. People sometimes accuse him of working out a a pre—determined arrangement. Nope. It’s clear Pasquale has just really internalized what Garcia ‘70 is basically describing here. Lightbulb moment, eh?
Normally, when when hear the term she’ll voicing, we mean “R-3-7”. I presume this means “R-3-6” and the requisite inversions for “Barry People”. Or, for the “off-chord” (i.e, diminished), just a diminished triad, not a fully dim7. Is this correct?
Not sure exactly about Thomas’ use of the term “shell”. I understand approximately what he is doing but I have not yet looked into it in depth — too far off from my technical facilities yet. I have to work a little yet until I can play parallel thirds with my pinky and ring finger (though there might be alternative fingerings).
“Off” is diminished no matter what voicing, “on” is the sixth chord resp. in this episode 66he talks about the melody notes that either belong to a sixth chord or a diminished chord.
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Thank you! it’s pretty clear to me now what he’s talking about, taking all the component constituent aspects of Barry’s 6/dim scale of chords and putting them together. When you are speaking of parallel thirds, I interpret it to mean harmonizing scales or lines. It’s customary in BH’s system (as well as any other jazz framework) to be able to harmonize lines and create dyads: harmonize in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, 7ths, ev8ths, 9ths, 10ths, 11s, etc. Originally Posted by Bop Head
10ths are more useful to me than straight thirds, because they create space and openness and clarity between the bass and the soprano, for example, and allow for inner line movement. People like Martin Taylor and Steve Herberman are really big into using 10ths in all kinds of creative ways. In fact, I would say it’s the skeletal, foundational framework for what Martin Taylor teaches.
I’ve become really big on using dyads (harmonized lines with one voice) to create modular bits of harmonic info. Like creating a I-VI7-ii-V7 movement with just dyads. (Lower to higher)
EC (the I chord, a C harmonized in 6ths)
GC# (the VI7 chord, with the guide tones, 7th to 3rd, a tritone)
FC (the guide tones of the ii chord, expressed as a P5, 3rd to 7th)
FB (the guide tones of the V7 chord, expressed as a tritone, 7th to 3rd)
EB (the guide tones of the I chord, expressed as a P5 (3rd to 7th)
I learned this everywhere on the fingerboard and use it all the time.
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I think it’s important to separate what Barry played in practice vs. what he teaches. I am about halfway through transcribing / learning the first chorus of his solo from Hot House on Plays Tadd Dameron and have yet to identify a phrase that seems distinctly derived from the rules in his teaching method. Starting with theory has always been a trap, I think—probably with Barry’s method, too.
As a hobbyist with limited time to practice, I am learning Barry’s lines and then analyzing them within the context of his method. Seems more productive for me as a hobbyist player who really wants to play tunes and not do exercises. I spent quite a bit of time slowly working out cool harmonic movements with borrowed notes, etc. but there’s no chance I am recalling those in a performance situation.
It’s easy to get bogged down in the theoretical side as a hobbyist player like me. Just take whatever little bits you can actually master and incorporate them into your playing for real.Last edited by wzpgsr; 10-04-2022 at 04:37 PM.
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