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  1. #1026

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    Hello everyone,

    I've recently been reading through this thread and also the study group one - trying to absorb all the wisdom of the hive.

    I've been watching TILF Barry Harris videos on YouTube and working a little bit on the basics from the video workshop pdf. I've scanned ahead a little bit to see how it can be applied to creating lines.

    Having done the scale outlines on RC and the blues I wanted to try a kind of etude to build some licks into my muscle memory. For the last 15 years, on and off, I have been attempting to play jazz and jazz blues without a huge amount of success. The only things that have really stuck with me and got into my improvising vocabulary are a handful of 2 5 1 licks I have gleaned from various sources.

    I am a bit on the fence about becoming a full-on BH disciple because I can see it is a lot of work. I sometimes wonder if it's too late (I'm 40) or if I'm meant to stick to pentatonics.

    Anyway that's a bit of background - I have a few questions. One is about the form of jazz blues, the others about my attempt at an etude.

    I've noticed that in the workshop pdf and in TILFBH videos the form of blues goes to a IM7 in bar 7 and does a turnaround to the iim7. I'm assuming this is the traditional bebop form.

    The form that I usually play, and have been shown by teachers in the past, is similar to Tenor Madness. Tonic stays dominant on bar 7 and either goes straight to VI7 or approaches it from IIIm7b5. I'm not sure if this is a more modern sound or more rooted in traditional blues but I quite likes these changes and I've tried building an etude on them using the idea on page 41 of the workshop pdf. This is a line down from b7 and back up to the 4th followed by the "4" phrase. I had to make some changes to accommodate having only one bar of some chords so have just used the descent. I changed bar 7 scale to dominant of course. I found that if the bar 6 goes to Edim7 the 2 bar pattern on Eb dominant kind of works. I messed around trying to include the E natural but didn't find anything that worked without changing the phrase significantly so just left it. I also had to think about how to navigate the bar 7 to 8 scale change. At first I tried playing the exact same pattern that happens in bar 7 on G dominant scale but the e natural sounded odd so I just flattened it. I realise that bar 12 normally stays on the I7 and I will also practice that as a variation but I put the V7 in this one.

    Hope that all makes sense and thanks if you managed to read it all.

    My questions are:

    1) Do you play the Tenor Madness form and modify in a similar way?
    2) Is my etude correct or does it depart from BH principles?
    3) Do you think this kind of thing is a valuable use of time to get the sounds and phrases into your playing?

    Many thanks,
    Ben
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    Last edited by bennybeebop; 03-09-2021 at 11:18 AM.

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  3. #1027

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    Quote Originally Posted by bennybeebop
    ... I sometimes wonder if it's too late (I'm [insert_age_here])...

    A bit of a digression from the topic, but the answer to your implied question is no. Regardless of the value you insert between the brackets.

  4. #1028

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Neverisky
    A bit of a digression from the topic, but the answer to your implied question is no. Regardless of the value you insert between the brackets.
    Agreed. I’m mid-40s and found practicing Barry’s half-step rules and “playing with your brothers and sisters” to be the closest thing to a shortcut there is to playing lines that sound like bebop. It’s always a work in progress of course, but this has opened up my ears quite a bit.

  5. #1029

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    Quote Originally Posted by bennybeebop
    Hello everyone,

    I've recently been reading through this thread and also the study group one - trying to absorb all the wisdom of the hive.

    I've been watching TILF Barry Harris videos on YouTube and working a little bit on the basics from the video workshop pdf. I've scanned ahead a little bit to see how it can be applied to creating lines.

    Having done the scale outlines on RC and the blues I wanted to try a kind of etude to build some licks into my muscle memory. For the last 15 years, on and off, I have been attempting to play jazz and jazz blues without a huge amount of success. The only things that have really stuck with me and got into my improvising vocabulary are a handful of 2 5 1 licks I have gleaned from various sources.

    I am a bit on the fence about becoming a full-on BH disciple because I can see it is a lot of work. I sometimes wonder if it's too late (I'm 40) or if I'm meant to stick to pentatonics.

    Anyway that's a bit of background - I have a few questions. One is about the form of jazz blues, the others about my attempt at an etude.

    I've noticed that in the workshop pdf and in TILFBH videos the form of blues goes to a IM7 in bar 7 and does a turnaround to the iim7. I'm assuming this is the traditional bebop form.

    The form that I usually play, and have been shown by teachers in the past, is similar to Tenor Madness. Tonic stays dominant on bar 7 and either goes straight to VI7 or approaches it from IIIm7b5. I'm not sure if this is a more modern sound or more rooted in traditional blues but I quite likes these changes and I've tried building an etude on them using the idea on page 41 of the workshop pdf. This is a line down from b7 and back up to the 4th followed by the "4" phrase. I had to make some changes to accommodate having only one bar of some chords so have just used the descent. I changed bar 7 scale to dominant of course. I found that if the bar 6 goes to Edim7 the 2 bar pattern on Eb dominant kind of works. I messed around trying to include the E natural but didn't find anything that worked without changing the phrase significantly so just left it. I also had to think about how to navigate the bar 7 to 8 scale change. At first I tried playing the exact same pattern that happens in bar 7 on G dominant scale but the e natural sounded odd so I just flattened it. I realise that bar 12 normally stays on the I7 and I will also practice that as a variation but I put the V7 in this one.

    Hope that all makes sense and thanks if you managed to read it all.

    My questions are:

    1) Do you play the Tenor Madness form and modify in a similar way?
    2) Is my etude correct or does it depart from BH principles?
    3) Do you think this kind of thing is a valuable use of time to get the sounds and phrases into your playing?

    Many thanks,
    Ben
    1) I like to play the blues with the changes that fit the melody... my feeling for TM is that I still prefer a major I chord. The melody gives Bb6, not Bb7. But it all sounds good cos it’s, well, the blues. Stylistically it’s more bop to play Major I think.

    The b7 on I sound I always associate with the post bop era. Bird played I6 or Imaj7 most times. BH is a Bird obsessive obviously...

    2) I might get jumped on by the Faithful, but I always saw BH’s stuff as less of a rigorous thing and more a set of resources. BH recorded on some of those iconic Blue Note dates and I would be surprised if he didn’t play that other version on some dates. I’ll have to have a listen.

    3) I can’t see a drawback myself

  6. #1030

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    Thanks Michael, wzpgsr and Christian for your replies.

    The age thing was kind of a joke although there was an element of truth in it. Sometimes my lack of progress is a source of frustration but even if it were too late to achieve my goals I'd still work on it. I think there's a lot of value that comes from the process of trying to improve.

    I have checked out the half step rules for dominants and will probably try creating etude type practice routines that utilise them. The brothers and sisters thing I will have to look into but I have a vague idea of what they are.

    Regarding blues form, thanks for the insight, it makes sense.

    I feel motivated to continue working on the ideas for now and that is due in large part to members of this forum being so generous with sharing their knowledge (definitely a Barry Harris characteristic from what I understand).

    Kind regards,
    Ben

  7. #1031

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    Ben: Perhaps for your etudes, run down the Dominant Half Step Rules and resolve via the Related Diminished.

    FOR INSTANCE

    C7 - down from 3rd (insert Half Step Rule here) plus off the 2nd - 4th - 5th - etc. (with both Half Step Rules)

    Land on the 3rd (or 5th - 7th - b9th) - Can you name the 3rd 5th 7th b9th of C7?

    Run Up (or down - or pivot) on RELATED DIMINISHED - Built On The Third Of The Dominant.

    Key - F
    Dominant - C7
    3rd of Dominant - Eo (E Diminished Seventh)

    Eo = E G Bb D


    Curiosity is where it's at.

    Best

    Alan

  8. #1032

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    Quote Originally Posted by bennybeebop
    I have checked out the half step rules for dominants and will probably try creating etude type practice routines that utilise them. The brothers and sisters thing I will have to look into but I have a vague idea of what they are.
    This video is what hammered both concepts home for me. Definitely worth your time.


  9. #1033

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    Great thanks Alan, I will try to incorporate those ideas into some of my practice. My theory knowledge is reasonably good so I do know those intervals yes. However, I don't consider myself an expert and am always trying to learn. I think the thing that has always eluded me is putting my understanding into practice. I've had brief attempt at putting diminished arpeggios in as resolutions to the next chord line but it's going to take a bit of work to get it all to flow and make sense to my ear.

    wzpgsr, that's a very helpful video. The brothers and sisters create some cool sounds.

    Kind regards,
    Ben

  10. #1034

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    Here's my attempt to incorporate descending lines with half step rules, diminished chords, one brother/sister dominant and the 5432 licks. In this case I did 534 I think. I also used dominant 7 arpeggios and at one point a 1235 to keep the line flowing.

    I'm not totally happy with it but at faster tempos I think it sounds pretty good although I'm struggling to play it with a 170 backing track at the moment.

    EDIT: I just realised that in bar 10 I used A7 which isn't a brother, I should have used Ab7, B7 or D7. However, I quite like the sound.


    Ben
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    Last edited by bennybeebop; 03-12-2021 at 04:04 AM. Reason: Mistake

  11. #1035

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    If it is any help Benny I am 64 and started studying Barry’s method 2 years go. It has helped my playing tremendously.

  12. #1036

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    Quote Originally Posted by bennybeebop
    Here's my attempt to incorporate descending lines with half step rules, diminished chords, one brother/sister dominant and the 5432 licks. In this case I did 534 I think. I also used dominant 7 arpeggios and at one point a 1235 to keep the line flowing.

    I'm not totally happy with it but at faster tempos I think it sounds pretty good although I'm struggling to play it with a 170 backing track at the moment.

    EDIT: I just realised that in bar 10 I used A7 which isn't a brother, I should have used Ab7, B7 or D7. However, I quite like the sound.


    Ben
    Looking good!

    in terms of advice on technique and fingering I’d have to look at the way you play.

  13. #1037

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    Hi,

    Thanks Pete, glad it's working well for you. The system is certainly opening my eyes.

    Thanks Christian, It's the 534 phrase that's tripping me up - it'll be fine with practice. I might upload a video at some point.

    I think I'm gonna stick with trying to apply the ideas to the blues for a while and maybe get some double time lines down.

    I've started delving into the scale of chords, C6o and Cm6o scales.

    Is there anywhere I can find scale outlines for Autumn Leaves, Girl From Ipanema and Blue Bossa?

    Thanks,
    Ben

  14. #1038

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    Here's a video of me playing the above etude with a backing track and then doing some of my standard jazz blues improv-



    The backing track is by Guitare Improvisation - YouTube

    Ben

  15. #1039

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    Sounding good baby!

    I'd maybe focus in minimising the 'bounce' in your picking hand if you are finding faster tempos a bit challenging.

  16. #1040

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    Thanks Christian,

    Yes I agree, I don't normally move it that much but I found myself changing my technique in order to get a clean take. I just managed to do it effortlessly at 200bpm on my other tele that has lighter strings on. I'm not used to playing 12s on that one although I like the sound - I'll give it another go later.

    Regards,
    Ben

  17. #1041

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    Hi all. I just read through all 21 pages of this thread because I have two questions and I wanted to make sure they weren't already asked. I got to see a post of mine from Aug 2019 when I was asking how the heck to wrap my fingers around the drop 2 voicings on the guitar. Thanks for the help there by the way! It's a year and a half later and after 20 min of practice every day since then, I'm able to play the drop-2 voicings up and down the neck on the lower 4 strings, the mid 4 strings and the upper 4 strings. So if you ever wondered how long it would take a guitar noob to do that: 1.5 years =)

    Question#1:
    I was overjoyed this morning when playing Autumn Leaves in the key of B, as my ears heard the #5 note emerge in bar 6 and then the b5 note emerge in bar 7:

    Bars 5 - 8 (in the key of B):
    | C#-6dim (over a A#-7b5) | E-6dim (over D#7b13) | G#-6dim (over G#-6) for two bars |

    The BH system has it so that the b5 and #5 are well disguised in a minor ii-V-i cadence such as this, but led into so beautifully, that when they emerge they sound like the best thing in the world to me. Especially when using the 3 note drop-2 voicings that Isaac Raz likes to use.

    But when I went into analyzing how to get that b5/#5 sound from the minor 6th dim chord when converting it to a single-line melodic scale (so that I can play that sound at 200bpm in improv situations) I couldn't figure out what the heck to do. Does anyone know what the heck scale to play that adheres to the half-step rules and can be played at blazing speeds that holds the b5 and #5 so beautifully? I'm talking b5 #5 in the key of B here, so on a G#-6dim scale, it's still just the F note and the G note. Thanks!

    Question#2:
    I feel like someone's going to throw something at me for bringing up this question again but I truly don't think it's been answered adequately to my taste, even though it's possibly, just slightly, the most asked question on this forum: Why does every melodic scale get a cool system of half-step rules with all that freedom for deviation EXCEPT for the most beautiful of all situations, where you're moving through a minor ii-V-i (let's say G-7b5 to C7) and the only thing you're really allowed to do at high speeds on the C7 is read it as Eb7 down to the 3rd of C7? Doesn't that seem like an extreme bottleneck within the BH system, compared to all the other liberty you get at high speeds? Sure maybe you could throw some intervals in there to make it less scalar but you're still having to land on the 3rd of C7 no matter what, and it has to be later than sooner, so you can't reverse the scale for example and ascend with it. I just don't get it, but it makes me think I'm missing something BIG if I don't get that, because bottlenecks like that seem really out of place with this system.

    [EDIT: After doing further research, Christianm shows some variety is definitely possible by moving the major 3rd earlier or later and using pivots in this post of his: Things I learned from Barry Harris Study Group. I guess I'm just surprised that on vii-7b5 to V7 cadence, if I'm not going for the altered sound, I pretty much only get get to continue the dominant scale from the vii-7b5 until I hit the major 3rd of the dominant chord. It just seems so confined and prescriptive to hit that major 3rd every time. At least compared to the rest of the system. So I feel like I'm really missing something.]


    Thanks for your time. For what has become my favorite passion in life, you all have been saints in guiding the light for me.
    Last edited by Squirrel; 04-17-2021 at 03:08 AM.

  18. #1042

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    Re. question 2, Chris Parks shows various approaches:


  19. #1043

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    I’m confused by your question #2. I assume you know that “running the scales” is how you practice to internalize the changes, not what you play to make music. In any case, here is another video by Chris Parks on the freedom and some musical ideas over the ii-V-I:





    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  20. #1044

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    "...But when I went into analyzing how to get that b5/#5 sound from the minor 6th dim chord when converting it to a single-line melodic scale (so that I can play that sound at 200bpm in improv situations) I couldn't figure out what the heck to do. Does anyone know what the heck scale to play that adheres to the half-step rules and can be played at blazing speeds that holds the b5 and #5 so beautifully? I'm talking b5 #5 in the key of B here, so on a G#-6dim scale, it's still just the F note and the G note. Thanks!"

    @Squirrel Congratulations on your outstanding progress!

    I suspect the issue in Q#1 above, as hinted at in other replies, is that you're conflating the scales, half-step "rules" and creative line construction. They're separate but related topics as I understand BH's approach to harmony and improv.

    First of all, let's take the "blazing speed" component out of this. The pace of playing is irrelevant to the larger questions you raise about harmonic/line construction theory...

    The half-steps are inserted to promote the ability landing on a chord tone (guide tone) on downbeats playing evenly in timing (e.g., all 8th notes). The "rules" are a set of ideas (not the only ones available) to preserve an octatonic scalar construct for use in an even-beat time signature (e.g., 4/4).

    That's it in a nutshell. Lots of ways to add (or refrain from adding) chromaticism into an otherwise 7-tone scale to accomplish this. And of course, if you're jumping around the scale tones and/or playing various other duration notes (an occasional dotted-8th or quarter-note triplets), then there are a whole world of other ways to land on chord tones on downbeats - assuming that's as essential to your improv style as you care to make it.

    As for the Min6thDim scale, I'm not clear as to what problem you're facing? The chords in this scale series are what they are ;-) If you're playing a tune with a passage that doesn't use one of these scales - especially if the melody calls for a sustained note that's not in your selected scale, then you've likely reached for the wrong scale for that passage.

    The Min6Dim scale is not a very good choice for playing, say, a major 7th tonality. Perhaps your struggle with making the Min6Dim scale work (at any speed) when working with a certain passage is that it's just not the right choice.

    I'd suggest analyzing the passage again - especially to identify those tones the melody line is emphasizing - and ask yourself whether you're reaching for the right chord/scale at that juncture. Songs can modulate in key. They can also modulation in mode/tonality.

    Best wishes!

  21. #1045

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    Thanks everyone! I think you've cleared a lot up for me and I can understand what to do now with question #1 (how do I get the b5 and #5 with half step rules?) and I can also articulate question #2 much better now (re: target notes prescribed on the V7b9 chord when running a a scale into a scale).

    Those videos from Chris are truly classics and re-watching them really brought me back to the first time I saw them. I love how he is so passionate about the freedom from target notes, and I feel the same way! I think that's why I took this opportunity to express my realization that I feel like I'm missing something really big here, because it almost seems like BH is proposing target note on the minor ii-V. After watching Chris's TILFBH videos again it seems he is also saying that there is a freedom to not have to think about target notes. He shows chord arpeggios from the 2 or the 4 or any degree of the scale really on his major ii-Vs. Yet when he talks about the minor ii-V he talks only about navigating to the 3rd or 7th (target notes?) and he only shows examples of navigating to the 3rd or 7th. I think I must just be not getting something very obvious and it's probably because of how I play. When I use the half-step rules on dominant scales I'm often going to the 5 of the scale or something non-important like that and I'm doing it with all sorts of major or minor chords built off of the less important scale degrees, so I'm just not often hitting the 3rd or 7th, or at least not purposefully. But then suddenly when I'm on a minor ii-V I can't think that freely and I'm suddenly needing to remember what the 3rd (or 7th for the tritone) is and getting there through hell or high water. But you know what... I think I'm just psyching myself out because I'm seeing a pattern in all the examples and I'm worrying about the pattern that isn't being represented: what about the arpeggios coming down the V7b9 in a minor scale that don't target the 3rd or 7th, and I think they're probably perfectly ok! Haha. I think it's just that nobody has outright said that, and so it seems overshadowed by every example of playing a scale into another scale as needing to target a 3rd or 7th which just isn't true, or at least isn't the whole of it. Did I get it? Or am I still off-base?

    Ok for Question #1, concerning how to fit a b5 and #5 with half-step rules, I've come to this conclusion, especially with the help of OneWatt (thank you!!!): just because every example of half-step rules focuses on dominant scales doesn't mean they only apply to dominant scales. There's really nothing that prevents me from running half-step rules on the 8 notes that emerge from a min6 chord and if that's the sound I like, why not practice the heck out of it and get it under my fingers? If I want to run half-step rules on min6 scales over the V7b9 chord instead of running a dominant into the 3rd of another dominant (up the ii-7b5 scale to the 7th and down to the 3rd of the V7b9) then there's nothing stopping me. And like Chris says in his videos, it's extremely rare BH ever says to not do something. We could all probably list on the fingers of one hand what BH says not to do, LOL.

    1. Don't play the snare on the 4 of every phrase if you're a drummer, lol (when he was trying to describe the "AND")
    2. Don't swing the couplets

  22. #1046

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    Oh boy it looks like Chris goes into a ton of depth on the concept of playing all your ABCs on the min6dim scale with melodic lines here:


  23. #1047

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    I haven’t watched much of Chris’s stuff (I probably should), so what I’m saying is what I remember from Barry’s classes; but when he demonstrated the tritone sub, the junction between say G7 and Db7 is the 3rd or 7th.

    The reason for this is obvious when you think about it; it allows a smooth transition between the two scales and the added note rules can be preserved seamlessly.

  24. #1048

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I haven’t watched much of Chris’s stuff (I probably should), so what I’m saying is what I remember from Barry’s classes; but when he demonstrated the tritone sub, the junction between say G7 and Db7 is the 3rd or 7th.

    The reason for this is obvious when you think about it; it allows a smooth transition between the two scales and the added note rules can be preserved seamlessly.
    That’s helpful because in my experience just connecting randomly doesn’t always sound all that great.

  25. #1049

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel
    Oh boy it looks like Chris goes into a ton of depth on the concept of playing all your ABCs on the min6dim scale with melodic lines ...
    Indeed! The content that Chris shares is remarkably helpful. I've watched a number of episodes multiple times and have applied the material to other instruments besides the guitar (piano, clarinet, EWI...). It's a goldmine of instruction and practice ideas.

    There's a "short list" of youtube'rs who've received my financial support over the years. Chris is on that short list.

  26. #1050

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel

    Question#2:
    I feel like someone's going to throw something at me for bringing up this question again but I truly don't think it's been answered adequately to my taste, even though it's possibly, just slightly, the most asked question on this forum: Why does every melodic scale get a cool system of half-step rules with all that freedom for deviation EXCEPT for the most beautiful of all situations, where you're moving through a minor ii-V-i (let's say G-7b5 to C7) and the only thing you're really allowed to do at high speeds on the C7 is read it as Eb7 down to the 3rd of C7? Doesn't that seem like an extreme bottleneck within the BH system, compared to all the other liberty you get at high speeds? Sure maybe you could throw some intervals in there to make it less scalar but you're still having to land on the 3rd of C7 no matter what, and it has to be later than sooner, so you can't reverse the scale for example and ascend with it. I just don't get it, but it makes me think I'm missing something BIG if I don't get that, because bottlenecks like that seem really out of place with this system.

    .


    Eb7 down to the 3rd of C is just a way to get you to play F harmonic minor (or C Phrygian dominant) over Gmin7b5 - C7b9

    Eb7 scale to the 3rd of C = Eb Db C Bb Ab G F E

    C Phrygian dominant = C Db E F G Ab Bb

    .