Official Barry Harris Thread

[Navdeep_Singh]

He says, "we're going to use C6 diminished" (whatever that is... C dim7?) and then plays an awkward Am7 voicing (C-G-A-E).

And then he calls D7b9 chord (with Eb in the bass) an Ebm6 chord!

LOLOLOL! Here we are, many years later, 64 pages in and we are back to “whatever that is”.


It’s quite a lot, whatever it may be. Lots of bang for the buck.

[Mick-7]

LOLOLOL! Here we are, many years later, 64 pages in and we are back to “whatever that is”.

It’s quite a lot, whatever it may be. Lots of bang for the buck.

Yes, it's a very long thread and I looked at it today for the first time, but it looks to me like an old wine bottle with a new label - a different way of describing an old concept.

"In the example (Amin7-D7-Gmaj7) Amin7 (C6) actually comes from a different scale than the tonic Gmaj7."

The IV in a major key is a major chord so that is to be expected.

[garybaldy]

What I haven't heard people talk about much is the ii minor application sort of "approximates" the Dorian scale with an Aeolian in a different key.

In the example (Amin7-D7-Gmaj7) Amin7 (C6) actually comes from a different scale than the tonic Gmaj7. In other words it is the same 6th diminished scale you would use to harmonize a tonic C major.

I have used the system in the past without paying too much attention to this fact, but it's interesting nevertheless.

What about instead of using the C6dim scale for the Am7, use the "6th on the 5th" ?

[Tal_175]

What about instead of using the C6dim scale for the Am7, use the "6th on the 5th" ?

You mean using G6dim scale?

[garybaldy]

You mean using G6dim scale?

Yes. I believe that's one of BH's options on a maj6. Bill Graham covers this in his extensive video posted on this thread.

[Tal_175]

Yes. I believe that's one of BH's options on a maj6. Bill Graham covers this in his extensive video posted on this thread.

The 6th on the 5th approach I'm familiar with is not the for 6dim scale from the 6th. It's just moving some of the extension notes as outlined in Alan's book. These notes do not include the "dorian note". I suspect that's what Bill Graham also covers.

[garybaldy]

The middle 8 of Take the A Train has always been a bit of a conundrum for me. Ie the first for bars of IV. Do you consider it to be a key change (as it's 4 bars) and play over it as if it's a I chord or do you keep to the song's key?

[pamosmusic]

The 6th on the 5th approach I'm familiar with is not the for 6dim scale from the 6th. It's just moving some of the extension notes as outlined in Alan's book. These notes do not include the "dorian note". I suspect that's what Bill Graham also covers.

Sixth on the fifth is using the sixth chord from the fifth of the parent chord, so G6 over C6.

Alan’s book is heavy on applications, so he might cover specific cases that don’t seem to meet your criteria, but he also talks about the subject broadly. I’ve found the little variations on the V-I movement to be pretty handy.

[mr. beaumont]

The middle 8 of Take the A Train has always been a bit of a conundrum for me. Ie the first for bars of IV. Do you consider it to be a key change (as it's 4 bars) and play over it as if it's a I chord or do you keep to the song's key?

Kind of both...it's definitely hanging around long enough to feel like we've switched keys...but check out how good that B natural sounds on it...

[Tal_175]

Sixth on the fifth is using the sixth chord from the fifth of the parent chord, so G6 over C6.

Alan’s book is heavy on applications, so he might cover specific cases that don’t seem to meet your criteria, but he also talks about the subject broadly. I’ve found the little variations on the V-I movement to be pretty handy.

True but I don't think the point I raised is addressed in the book.

To recap:

Suppose you have a ii V in C:
Dmin7 G7 Cmaj

The typical recipe is to use F6dim over Dmin7 and use Dmin6 or Abmin6 over G7.

But the harmonized scale over Dmin7(F6dim) doesn't have the note B (it's got Bb). Now some treat the 6th (B) in the ii minor chord as an avoid note. I don't want to go so far as to suggest that as the reason for the lack of B in the harmony, lol.

In chord-melody applications, if you are harmonizing a scalar melody (or bass line) over the ii chord using this approach, this is a bit of a problem.
The 6th on the 5th examples I looked at also seem to not use that note.

[garybaldy]

The 6th on the 5th approach I'm familiar with is not the for 6dim scale from the 6th. It's just moving some of the extension notes as outlined in Alan's book. These notes do not include the "dorian note". I suspect that's what Bill Graham also covers.

I agree it's not the 6dim from the 6th. It's 6dim from the 5th.
So if you use the G6dim scale (over the Am7 in the II V I in G maj) instead of the C6dim you are alternating the G6 chord with the F#dim chord which can be looked at as alternating Cmaj7/9 (G6 is the upper extensions) with Cdim. That eliminates the F nat note.

[pamosmusic]

True but I don't think the point I raised is addressed in the book.

To recap:

Suppose you have a ii V in C:
Dmin7 G7 Cmaj

The typical recipe is to use F6dim over Dmin7 and use Dmin6 or Abmin6 over G7.

But the harmonized scale over Dmin7(F6dim) doesn't have the note B (it's got Bb). Now some treat the 6th (B) in the ii minor chord as an avoid note. I don't want to go so far as to suggest that as the reason for the lack of B in the harmony, lol.
In chord-melody applications, if you are harmonizing a scalar melody (or bass line) over the ii chord using this approach, this is a bit of a problem.
The 6th on the 5th examples I looked at also seem to not use that note.

Doesnt it though? The C6 would have the B, bing bang boom.

The scales are straightforwardly combination of the parent chord and the diminished chord. So that’s why there’s no B in the F6. But there is the open possibility of a chord scale that does include it the B by using that 6th on the 5.

[Tal_175]

Doesnt it though? The C6 would have the B, bing bang boom.

The scales are straightforwardly combination of the parent chord and the diminished chord. So that’s why there’s no B in the F6. But there is the open possibility of a chord scale that does include it the B by using that 6th on the 5.

Yes, 6th on the 5th if used as 6dim would bring that note. Did you find a 6th on the 5th application in Alan's book that actually does that though?

The thing is, I can use a variety of approaches to harmonize that note. What I find interesting is, the 6dim applications that I have seen don't do it.

[Tal_175]

I agree it's not the 6dim from the 6th. It's 6dim from the 5th.
So if you use the G6dim scale (over the Am7 in the II V I in G maj) instead of the C6dim you are alternating the G6 chord with the F#dim chord which can be looked at as alternating Cmaj7/9 (G6 is the upper extensions) with Cdim. That eliminates the F nat note.

Sorry, I meant 6dim on the 5th also. Yes, that would work. But as I said in the previous post, what I find interesting is that the approaches that are explicitly shown and discussed don't include that note.

[pamosmusic]

Yes, 6th on the 5th if used as 6dim would bring that note. Did you find a 6th on the 5th application in Alan's book that actually does that, though?

The thing is, I can use a variety of approaches to harmonize that note. What I find interesting is, the 6dim applications that I have seen don't do it.

Cant recall off the top of my head. Theres also treating the ii like a minor since that has the m6.

Otherwise, I’m not a BH purist, so if something doesn’t fit, I just move to a different thing.

[garybaldy]

Kind of both...it's definitely hanging around long enough to feel like we've switched keys...but check out how good that B natural sounds on it...

I've always preferred the B nat. Ofcourse Strayhorn carefully kept to the the notes of the IVmaj7 arpeggio in the melody!!!
I've played bass for many years and I've generally adhered to what I was told as a teenager (in the 70s) which was, with passing notes between chord tones, to keep to notes of the key you are in. Over the last 50 years though I've learned that there are exceptions ofcourse.