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  1. #351

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    If you want a straight dominant sound use the Dom7/dim scale, it’s in Alan’s book. Also there’s a Dom7b5/dim scale.

    The min6 on the 5th is just the same as a dominant with a 9th.

    The min6 on the flat 2 is an altered dominant.

    All dominant really.

    As I recall, page 19 of Alan's book explains those min6 applications for dominant.
    Last edited by grahambop; 08-08-2018 at 04:14 AM.

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  3. #352

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    Right, off to class. :-)

  4. #353

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Right, off to class. :-)
    See you there!

  5. #354

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    If you want a straight dominant sound use the Dom7/dim scale, it’s in Alan’s book. Also there’s a Dom7b5/dim scale.

    The min6 on the 5th is just the same as a dominant with a 9th.

    The min6 on the flat 2 is an altered dominant.

    All dominant really.

    As I recall, page 19 of Alan's book explains those min6 applications for dominant.
    Yes, thank you. But as we discussed in the study group on the book, Alan's focus is on ALTERNATIVES to playing a dominant 7 chord. Both section 2.4 that you reference and 2.6 are all about how NOT to play the dominant 7 chord using either the min6 or dim7 chords. He never actually discusses using the dominant 7 chord or the dom7/dim scale he enigmatically lays out without ever demonstrating or explaining.

    To my ear a rootless G9 sounds very different to a G7, especially in a bluesy context. I don't have the best ear, but listening to BH play I swear I hear straight dominant chords. Given how complete his "unified theory" of music universe is, I am interested in knowing how he thinks of these. Does he see them as min6 with a borrowed note? Is it a IIdim7 with a borrowed note? Is it just a V7 which coexist side by side with his dim/6 scales? I assume he must address harmonizing with dominant chords head on somewhere, right?

  6. #355

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    Yes, thank you. But as we discussed in the study group on the book, Alan's focus is on ALTERNATIVES to playing a dominant 7 chord. Both section 2.4 that you reference and 2.6 are all about how NOT to play the dominant 7 chord using either the min6 or dim7 chords. He never actually discusses using the dominant 7 chord or the dom7/dim scale he enigmatically lays out without ever demonstrating or explaining.

    To my ear a rootless G9 sounds very different to a G7, especially in a bluesy context. I don't have the best ear, but listening to BH play I swear I hear straight dominant chords. Given how complete his "unified theory" of music universe is, I am interested in knowing how he thinks of these. Does he see them as min6 with a borrowed note? Is it a IIdim7 with a borrowed note? Is it just a V7 which coexist side by side with his dim/6 scales? I assume he must address harmonizing with dominant chords head on somewhere, right?
    I don't have the book with me but I remember in Alan's book in the same section that he talks about playing 6/min6 diminishes from the 5th and b7th of the dominant, he also says that one can obtain the related diminished of the dominant by moving two voices of the important minor by a half step each. He says something along the lines of this opening the door for all the "family of dominants" that can be played over the dominant. So in this case the movement is between the minor 6'th and the members of the dominant family and the family amongst themselves.
    Don't these cover the dominant sound?

  7. #356

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    I don't have the best ear, but listening to BH play I swear I hear straight dominant chords. Given how complete his "unified theory" of music universe is, I am interested in knowing how he thinks of these. Does he see them as min6 with a borrowed note? Is it a IIdim7 with a borrowed note? Is it just a V7 which coexist side by side with his dim/6 scales? I assume he must address harmonizing with dominant chords head on somewhere, right?
    To be honest I don't really worry myself about grand unified theories, I just want to get on and play. I find the examples I listed are all very handy options for addressing a dominant function.

    Actually I find 'straight dominants' a bit too vanilla, most jazz musicians seem to play them with a 9th or a 13th or even a #11 added.

    I'll leave it to someone more expert than I to say what Barry's 'dominant theory' might be!

  8. #357

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    Ok Barry said ‘Melodic Minor’ today. We played it up and down and everything. I have it on a recording if anyone wants proof.

    Oz is all over this shit. I need a lie down. :-)

  9. #358
    yeah man post the recording
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  10. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Ok Barry said ‘Melodic Minor’ today. We played it up and down and everything. I have it on a recording if anyone wants proof.

    Oz is all over this shit. I need a lie down. :-)
    Interesting. Up and down from the ROOT?What contexts was he talking about for application of it?

  11. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    There is one aspect of BH harmonizing that I am still struggling to understand. I'm sure it's been covered a dozen times, but I don't seem to find a succinct answer. How does a dominant sound figure into BH harmonizing? I understand that we are not supposed to see "2-5"s, but rather as "movement" of voices leading from one major or minor tonality to another using the dim/6 scales. But given that a lot of music will often lead into a major or minor tonality using a dominant sound, or sit on a dominant sound, or go from dominant to dominant, there must be somewhere BH talks directly about the role of dominants in harmonizing. Isn't there?

    I understand that you can form a min6/dim scale on the "important minor" of a dominant, and that another is to be found built on the b2nd. I can hear how these min6 lead smoothly the same place as the dominant would. But it doesn't sound the same as a dominant chord.

    I can also see that the dim7 chords that fall between the inversions of the 6/min6 chords are just one half step from the V7 chord. Just lower the b6 and you get it. Does BH consider V7 chords to be dim7 with a "borrowed note"?

    In any case, I'm sure we all have our theories. But does anyone have this straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak? Is there a video somewhere where he speaks specifically to dominant chords in his universe of harmony?
    This is the thing I always end up talking about when everyone else is stuck on the 6th diminished scales. Straight up dom 7ths are huge. The whole point of "sisters and Brothers." It all centers around the diminished. I saw a video on youtube where he says the first movement we should learn is a dimished chord with any note raised, lower that note back to the diminished chord, lower the same note down a half step to form a dom 7 chord. Then why note lower the fifth of that chord? after all, the dom diminished and b5 diminished scales are just as important as the 6th dim scales.

    When I'm doing an arrangement and I need a chord pulling to the 1 I
    1. decide if I want a biii dim family chord or a related diminished sound.
    2. decide which of my 4 dominant chords I want to arrive to of that family
    3. Do I want to lower the 5th

    example: raise two notes of the dim chord to create a maj 6th chord. Lower them to diminished. lower a note to form a dominant chord. Lower it's fifth. resovle. That's nice movement
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  12. #361

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Interesting. Up and down from the ROOT?What contexts was he talking about for application of it?
    Just up, and on IVm in All of Me. From the root.
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-08-2018 at 02:08 PM.

  13. #362


    Here's a video back from when I was first messing around with it. It shows how I would perform the movement, then shows the block chords
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  14. #363

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    Thank you Joe. That was along my thinking as well. I am dissatisfied with a mindset that banishes the dom7 chord and my leaning was to hear the min6/dim as movement that liked to make a final stop at a dom7 by dropping the 5th a whole step before resolving to the target tonality.

    Just to make sure I'm understanding you:

    You either like to lead to the I with a biiidim7 OR choose a chord derived from the VIIdim7 chord (the dim of the target's 6/dim scale). Obviously these aren't the same dim7 chords. If the latter you like to blend the min6 with its siblings by dropping the 5th a whole step to dom7 or even walking it down through the dim/dom/domb5.

    Is that something you came up with experimenting, or did you get that at a BH seminar?

  15. #364

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    The 7b5 - dim scale, people.

    Also, try planing a dom7 through the min6-dim scale.

    Also triads from brothers and sisters over a b7 shell.... So C and Bb with a Eb, A or F# on - Jordan, are you about?

    Things that came up today in class.

  16. #365

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    You don't go to NYC unless you are serious, but from what I know, you hang on in there, it's the place to be. Tough for sure... but if you are in a badass environment, you will be a badass,
    I recently moved back to NYC after living in the bay area for 2 years.

    pros:

    - can go see great, inspiring music every night. last night I was walking to smalls to watch Jon Irabagon, Rudy Royston, Luis Perdomo and Tim Hagans play a show at 7:30pm on a wednesday, and I walked by the 55 bar where Ben Monder's trio with Tony Malaby was also playing the early set. It truly is a listener's paradise.

    - can take lessons with anyone you like. Barry Harris' classes are great. I took a classical bass lesson with a NY philharmonic bassist. it's insane.

    - on the gigs you do play, everyone will be very, very good.

    - musicians are generally open to getting together just to play and hang out. this is less common in other areas of the US I've been in, where you generally need to have a paying gig to call another good player to play. not true in NYC.

    cons:

    - extreme imbalance in supply and demand means it's hard to find and keep gigs. with internationally famous jazz musicians playing at dive bars on weeknights, it's just harder to find a gig, and no one's phone is ringing off the hook, except maybe Rudy Royston. but, it's not impossible and even journeyman jazz musicians like myself can play good gigs occasionally.

    - basically need to have some kind of day job or be very successful musician to make a living.

    I loved my time in the bay area, I played all kinds of cool gigs with all kinds of different bands, and it was the best possible thing I could have done for my playing (started playing upright 4 years ago) to quickly gain experience. That said, I did feel like there was only so far I could take things musically there, in terms of my quartet, and I've never once felt that way living in NYC.

  17. #366

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    The 7b5 - dim scale, people.

    Also, try planing a dom7 through the min6-dim scale.

    Also triads from brothers and sisters over a b7 shell.... So C and Bb with a Eb, A or F# on - Jordan, are you about?

    Things that came up today in class.
    Care to elucidate. C'mon, I know you want to... You are just dying to fire up that cam corder, I know it! It's sitting there all lonely calling your name.

    Seriously, we've had endless talk of the dom7/dim and dom7b5/dim but few real examples of it being used in context. Can I coax you to show me how BH might teach using them over a medium tempo major Blues or Rhythm Changes? Do they blend in with the min6/dim scales like Joe is doing (that what I think I'm hearing in BH's playing) ? Does the dom7b5/dim work equally well leading to a major or minor chord? Again, in my mind I always associate that dom7b5 sound as going to a minor chord.

    Likewise, what do you mean "play a dom7 through a min6-dim scale"? Do you mean play the mixolydian scale over a backing of min6-dim? Do you mean play min6-dim chords over a static dom7 chord? Do you mean play dom7 inversions over its related "important minor" min6?

    I know it may seem I am being pedantic, but I am one of those persons that really needs to understand something thoroughly from as many angles as possible before I can assimilate it. I wish I could just "get on with playing", but really understanding these concepts helps me to keep my thinking clear when I am arranging a melody --especially if I am trying to do it on the fly.

  18. #367

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    Don’t know if this helps, but I found an old thread about this very question. Alan K. posted a few ideas in it too:

    How do you use Barry Harris's Dom. 7th dim and Dom 7th b5 scales?

  19. #368

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    Well you can once I've worked how to do it. Sure sounds good when Barry does it.

  20. #369

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    Take a G7 and plane through Dm6-dim for instance

  21. #370

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald View Post
    I recently moved back to NYC after living in the bay area for 2 years.

    pros:

    - can go see great, inspiring music every night. last night I was walking to smalls to watch Jon Irabagon, Rudy Royston, Luis Perdomo and Tim Hagans play a show at 7:30pm on a wednesday, and I walked by the 55 bar where Ben Monder's trio with Tony Malaby was also playing the early set. It truly is a listener's paradise.

    - can take lessons with anyone you like. Barry Harris' classes are great. I took a classical bass lesson with a NY philharmonic bassist. it's insane.

    - on the gigs you do play, everyone will be very, very good.

    - musicians are generally open to getting together just to play and hang out. this is less common in other areas of the US I've been in, where you generally need to have a paying gig to call another good player to play. not true in NYC.

    cons:

    - extreme imbalance in supply and demand means it's hard to find and keep gigs. with internationally famous jazz musicians playing at dive bars on weeknights, it's just harder to find a gig, and no one's phone is ringing off the hook, except maybe Rudy Royston. but, it's not impossible and even journeyman jazz musicians like myself can play good gigs occasionally.

    - basically need to have some kind of day job or be very successful musician to make a living.

    I loved my time in the bay area, I played all kinds of cool gigs with all kinds of different bands, and it was the best possible thing I could have done for my playing (started playing upright 4 years ago) to quickly gain experience. That said, I did feel like there was only so far I could take things musically there, in terms of my quartet, and I've never once felt that way living in NYC.
    Are you a bass player? If so we need to multiply the cons by 700 or so. I think that's about the ratio of guitar players to bass players

  22. #371

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Don’t know if this helps, but I found an old thread about this very question. Alan K. posted a few ideas in it too:

    How do you use Barry Harris's Dom. 7th dim and Dom 7th b5 scales?
    In that thread someone suggests applying the ideas on page 14 of Alan’s book to the dom7/dim and dom7b5/dim scales, could look into that.

  23. #372

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    You started 4 years ago? Say, I can't imagine someone who took up guitar 4 years ago getting gigs in NY (Unless of course they're Wes Montgomery, I think that's about how long it took him to become a legend).
    Not to mention upright bass is probably a more difficult instrument to learn than guitar.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 08-08-2018 at 04:04 PM.

  24. #373

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    Well I suppose it's a good way to learn.

    I mean it took me basically 5 years to learn how to do drop2's in the maj6-dim scale. I doubt things take so long in NYC... They'd run you out of town....

  25. #374

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    You started 4 years ago? Say, I can't imagine someone who took up guitar 4 years ago getting gigs in NY (Unless of course they're Wes Montgomery, I think that's about how long it took him to become a legend).
    Not to mention upright bass is probably a more difficult instrument to learn than guitar.
    I did, yeah. but, I have played jazz guitar professionally since I was a teenager; and I was 37 when I started upright, so, that's a huge advantage; I already knew hundreds of tunes and could play things in any key, time signatures, all that stuff. Also, I took to it very naturally, in a way that guitar never came naturally to me despite years and years of work. Also I am not some kind of amazing musician, although, I do think I play upright fairly well in that I have a good sound, can swing really well, know my limitations and can play to my strengths.

  26. #375



    7b5 dim is my favorite scale. In Emily I use it at :45, in Stella I use it at :20 and 1:08
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  27. #376

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald View Post
    I did, yeah. but, I have played jazz guitar professionally since I was a teenager; and I was 37 when I started upright, so, that's a huge advantage; I already knew hundreds of tunes and could play things in any key, time signatures, all that stuff. Also, I took to it very naturally, in a way that guitar never came naturally to me despite years and years of work. Also I am not some kind of amazing musician, although, I do think I play upright fairly well in that I have a good sound, can swing really well, know my limitations and can play to my strengths.
    No doubt, you must be a natural on the bass. 4 years is a short time to get to gigging level in NY.
    I've been playing for 20 years. I didn't always play seriously. But I agree a lot of time spend on the instrument goes to learning things that are not really specific to the instrument. One learns about music, repertoire, develops ears etc. Most importantly one learns about themselves and how they learn music. I can see how these all can be transfered to any instrument quickly. Technique is really the easy part.

  28. #377


    at 1:55 I was playing dom/dim. specifically E7/dim resolving to C
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  29. #378

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Don’t know if this helps, but I found an old thread about this very question. Alan K. posted a few ideas in it too:

    How do you use Barry Harris's Dom. 7th dim and Dom 7th b5 scales?
    EXACTLY what I was looking for.

    I was going to insert a clip of the movie FROZEN where Olaf says, “I don’t know if this helps, but I found stairs leading exactly to where you want to go.” Unfortunately YouTube search let me down.

    Thank you.


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  30. #379

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    Hey,

    I recently downloaded a trial version of guitar pro to experiment with it a bit. Eventually I ended up transcribing a Barry Harris solo on Ornithology.

    So I thought I’d share it here. Here’s a video of the transcription synced with the original audio for maximum convenience:



    This version is from his recording Complete Live in Tokyo 1976. Love this album.

    If anyone is interested in the pdf I can share that as well.

    Hope it’s helpful to anyone, I learned allot during this process. Happy to hear any feedback on the results.

    Cheers,
    Tamir

  31. #380

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    Yeah, I sure would like to know what process you used to transcribe that!

    Thanks for all your work.
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  32. #381

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    Here's a good process:





    Don't let technology do too much heavy lifting...

  33. #382

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    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    Hey,

    I recently downloaded a trial version of guitar pro to experiment with it a bit. Eventually I ended up transcribing a Barry Harris solo on Ornithology.

    So I thought I’d share it here. Here’s a video of the transcription synced with the original audio for maximum convenience:



    This version is from his recording Complete Live in Tokyo 1976. Love this album.

    If anyone is interested in the pdf I can share that as well.

    Hope it’s helpful to anyone, I learned allot during this process. Happy to hear any feedback on the results.

    Cheers,
    Tamir
    UGH, tab!!!! :-)

    Nice job, man... I should focus and do a whole solo again... It's been about a year since my last, but I do bits and pieces every day...

  34. #383
    yeah i will be working on this. still never learned a whole solo, but this would be a good one i think
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  35. #384

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    BTW talking about transcription, I realised something in the Barry improv class (a lot of which is transcription in tempo at real time, sink or swim :-))

    Barry Harris teaches in WORDS and SENTENCES. The idea is not to spend hours puzzling out lines note by note, the aim is to get the word or the common idiom in one go. Once this is done, transcription is no longer necessary. You just listen to the music at tempo and hear what's going on (90% of the time at least.)

    These words and usages have flexibility and room for variation built in, but they are basic structures you can hear quickly.

    I think we all have that to some extent - for instance, I bet all of us could recognise a descending blues phrase starting on the b5, and we all have phrases that we play that we can hear in other players.

    The thing is, that's what 'bebop vocabulary' means - it's quite literally things you can say and have a conversation in real time, and that's the thing about that era of jazz, and why I think people who talk about 'creativity' or 'moving the music forwards' kind of miss the point. It's not about that. I mean, I can say

    ghkjdfidqpoguh1g

    Doesn't mean it has any value!

    And of course, there are other words from other branches of jazz.

    But I don't know anyone else who teaches that way. Or at least I haven't had contact with them. A lot of books and courses aim to teach the grammar without teaching the conversational idioms.
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-10-2018 at 04:56 PM.

  36. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    ghkjdfidqpoguh1g
    do you have tabs for this???
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  37. #386

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    do you have tabs for this???
    Oh OK then:

    -------------------12-17
    -----------10-12
    ------6-8
    ----9
    --7
    5

  38. #387

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    BTW talking about transcription, I realised something in the Barry improv class (a lot of which is transcription in tempo at real time, sink or swim :-))

    Barry Harris teaches in WORDS and SENTENCES. The idea is not to spend hours puzzling out lines note by note, the aim is to get the word or the common idiom in one go. Once this is done, transcription is no longer necessary. You just listen to the music at tempo and hear what's going on (90% of the time at least.)

    These words and usages have flexibility and room for variation built in, but they are basic structures you can hear quickly.

    I think we all have that to some extent - for instance, I bet all of us could recognise a descending blues phrase starting on the b5, and we all have phrases that we play that we can hear in other players. I mean I can say

    ghkjdfidqpoguh1g

    Doesn't mean it has any value!

    The thing is, that's what 'bebop vocabulary' means - it's quite literally things you can say and have a conversation in real time, and that's the thing about that era of jazz, and why I think people who talk about 'creativity' or 'moving the music forwards' kind of miss the point. It's not about that.

    And of course, there are other words from other branches of jazz.

    But I don't know anyone else who teaches that way. Or at least I haven't had contact with them. A lot of books and courses aim to teach the grammar without teaching the conversational idioms.
    Yeah, I totally get what you mean. I never been to Barry’s class but I’ve been all over his DVDs and his youtube videos, and I totally can hear him spelling out his lines when listening to his recordings. When I transcribed this I went, oh here he go again, starting an arpeggio from the 3rd of the iim (or the 7th of the dominant), here he’s going down to the 3rd of D7, here he play his “4” phrase, etc.

    Transcribing a whole solo is not the most efficient way to internalize vocabulary. It is much more efficient to take bits and pieces at a time and focus on small stuff. But taking a whole solo is great when you want to focus on analyzing and understanding the player you transcribe, for example to see how often he does certain things.

    I did learn new stuff doing this, I planned to summarize some of my my findings, with snippets and pointers to the transcription. Hopefully that’ll be next.

  39. #388

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    ghkjdfidqpoguh1g
    Yeah, well... ghkjdfidqpoguh1g to you too buddy!!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  40. #389

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1 View Post
    Yeah, I sure would like to know what process you used to transcribe that!

    Thanks for all your work.
    Sure, it was like this:

    I took it one chorus at a time. I sat with my guitar and a slow down app (either the transcibe! app on my computer, or anytune pro on my iphone), and learn to play a whole chorus on the guitar, up to a point when I can play it together with the recording at some tempo, usually its between 50%-75% of the original speed. Once I have it in my head, I go to guitar pro, and insert the notes in the correct rhythm with the guitar input tool, which give both notation and tab. After that I fill in the chord symbols and that’s pretty much it.

    Cheers,
    Tamir

  41. #390
    Measure 4 is interesting because he plays the "4 phrase," but then instead of playing down a minor third as I would have expected, he plays it down a major 3rd
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  42. #391
    he obviously hasn't studied the concepts enough
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  43. #392

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    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    Sure, it was like this:

    I took it one chorus at a time. I sat with my guitar and a slow down app (either the transcibe! app on my computer, or anytune pro on my iphone),
    Cheers,
    Tamir
    Transcribe! and Anytune ok thanks.
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  44. #393

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    Measure 4 is interesting because he plays the "4 phrase," but then instead of playing down a minor third as I would have expected, he plays it down a major 3rd
    Hi Joe,
    Not sure I follow. Which major 3rd does he play instead of a minor 3rd?

    He starts on the 5th of C7, then he do his "4" phrase bringing him to the 3rd of the C7, from there he goes down a diminished triad, and then half step up to approach the 5th of the tonic Fmaj.

    Official Barry Harris Thread-screen-shot-2018-08-11-9-44-05-jpg

    I've heard Barry play this bar as a whole many times. To me this phrase is the essence of bebop

  45. #394

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    The last three notes can also be seen as just an enclosure or approach notes from above and double below the 5th of Fmaj.
    But I strongly hear the diminished here. The phrase could easily go from the 3rd of C7 up the diminished7 arpeggio and land on the 5th of F up an octave.

  46. #395
    patterns stick out to me, so to me it just seemed like he plays the 4 figure, then plays the 4 figure in Ab. You are correct of course
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  47. #396

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    Obviously you are right too

    The same enclosure pattern that is used to approach the note C (C#-Bb-B-C) is also used in Barry's "4" phrase to approach the note E (F-D-D#-E).

    Are you familiar with Thomas Owens dissertation on Charlie Parker? Owens calls this pattern 'motive 5B'. It is one of the most distinctive motives used by Parker in his solos, and according to Owens it became one of the most frequently copied of Parker's figures.

    Owens dissertation can be found here:
    Charlie Parker Dissertation Volume II Thomas Owens 1974 : Thomas Owens : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

    It is an amazing read...

    Cheers,
    Tamir

  48. #397
    Thanks again, Tamir! great resources and contributions to the thread
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  49. #398

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    I would never have seen the missing Eb for the second “4”. Very interesting. I’d love to see more of that kind of analysis, if you guys are willing.


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  50. #399

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    ‘All science is either physics or stamp collecting.’ Rutherford

    I think people focus too much on the theoretical physics and not enough on the stamp collecting.

    That Charlie Parker dissertation is a good bit of honest empirical science. Which is also what Barry Harris did as a youth (but got no PhD for his trouble lol.)

    You could know all the music theory in the world and never be aware of these little devices and idioms. To know that stuff requires a humble and close connection with the music.

    I mean, you may not want to play these things eventually, but it’s good to know what they are.

  51. #400

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    stamp collecting... nicely put

    Barry did eventually get a
    Honorary Doctorate from Northwestern University.