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Anyway, this is the episode you have to to watch, if you want to understand all his references about elevators, floors, scales of scales, etc.
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10-05-2022 01:01 PM
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I watched the whole of Episode 49 by Echols on the 4 minor 6th chords derived from each diminished 7th chord. How they can all be used in a V7 type of way. To me, it really shows the symmetry and elegance of Barry Harris’ teachings. Here are my notes:
The 4 minor 6th chords associated with each Diminished chord can be used in lieu of the V7 chord.
D7, key of G
the Dim chord associated this tonality is found on the 2nd, 4th, #5th and M7th degree of the scale. A°= C°= Eb°=Gb°
1. Using Eb°: let’s just say Eb° , drop 2 voice dispersion of Eb-A-C-Gb. lower the Eb° down a half step,= D7, the V7 of G. Increase the Eb° up a half step, it gets you the “6 on the 5”, = A-6. Which actually is the same thing as D9.
2. Lower the A of the drop 2 Eb° down a half step= Ab7. Increase the A of the Eb° =Eb-6. This is the “6 on the 5” of the tritone’s minor. The tritone of D7 =Ab7, the “6 on the 5” of Ab7=Eb-6. If you want to play an ALT-dominant kind of line, you can always play a minor 6th a half step away from the V7. A half step away from D7 is Eb-6. Which is the tritone’s minor.
3. Lower the Gb of the Eb° down a half step=F7. Raise theGb of the Eb° up a half step =C-6. This is the iv-minor in the key of G. Anther way of getting to the tonic from the dominant is the iv-minor. bVII7 is also called the “back door dominant” that gets you to the tonic. in this case, in the key of G, F7 is the back door dominant. And C-6 is the iv-minor.
4. What if we are going to G minor? Take the C of the Eb° and move it down a half step to B7. Take the C of the Eb° and move it up a half step to F#-6. F#-6 is the tritone’s minor that resolves to the Bb6, which is the same as G minor7. Backing up, by way of an explanation: The V7 of Bb6 =F7. The Tritone of F7=B7. The “6 on the 5” of B7=F#6, the Tritone’s minor. So, F#-6 can be used to resolve to Gm7, because Gm7=Bb6. Thus, if you have a V7 chord that goes to a minor chord, use this minor6 derivation.
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This thread has been a godsend for me prioritize getting my workspace down, I know it well it enough, but so many holes. I was too complacent. So thank you for piquing my interest.
Nothing matters for next two weeks than getting the workspace down more solidly than I have it at preset.
Here’s the widest open chords I can find for my 8 string guitar, using only the top 2 strings and bottom 2 strings. Yes, I know this effects exactly zero other people around here
(and most places).
8 string using strings 8721
1563
1653 (barre)
361 x
531x
53x6
6351
Dim chord (repeating pattern)
7x#52 (goes up a minor 3rd)
2x74
4x2#5
#5x47
#s represent intervals, not frets.
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Hey Navdeep great that your enjoying playing. But the overall sound of the D7 to C is very strong and personally has very strong tonal implication. I can't hear the V I approach usable in almost all tune playing contexts.
I think it's organized and works in it's own context, or solo performance.
But if you only had two versions of playing a G7 before....with the examples you posted above... you now only have one with different versions of that One.
While the approach is a great sound and useful way to expand playing the V I concept for creating Function or harmonic movement. It's just One.... there are many more musically organized harmonic approaches to create Harmonic movement in static situations. And if you open the sub dominant harmonic doors... even more.
That being said... sounds like you found something that's going to work for you.... and that's a great thing in it's self. I hope it works great, when you get it down, please post some examples. I would love to hear the 8 string sound. I'm in bay area and remember when Charlie started playing LOL it was fun
Ken Parker Archtops - Finest Archtop Guitars
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Threepart video series by Polish pianist Tomasz Bialowolski with English subtitles.
The whole thing was funded by the Polish government department for culture and education. There was a free PDF available but as Tomasz’ website is unavailable and the Internet Archive has not archived his PDFs I attach it here. It is written in Polish [interesting: they use the German names for keys and chords, so c major is “c-dur”] but if you follow the videos it is easy to understand.
koncepcje_harm_wg_bharrisa_full.pdf
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Thank you. I would love to catch one of your gigs. I’m in Sac, now, but it’s easy enough to drive down to the East Bay-SF-Marin-South Bay-Sonoma-Napa etc.
Originally Posted by Reg
For me, music is just a way to enjoy life after my terrible, near death accident. I’m just happy as a clam to take my guitar to Big Sur or Marin or Tahoe or the High Sierrras and play for the birds. It’s enough. That just give so much joy, who needs more than this? So, I thought.long and hard about the system I need to play solo, as a self-obtained musical eco-system.
I appreciate the fact that you also think systematically and dynamically.
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Music is just a way to enjoy life.
This is beautiful ^^^
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Yea Navdeep... great perspective. Your posts have a much deeper meaning and understanding. Thank you and Sure I ran a Big Band in Petalume last night. I just use a guitar trio and the 5 4 4 horn sections... it was a great night... But I'll send you some gigs coming up...thanks.
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Quick question on basic BH practicing scales (I apologize in advanced for such a fundamental question. I rarely play solos, so I haven't really focussed on this aspect of BH much):
On a minor ii-V-i, when we get to the i we would play minor scale that has both the b6 and the 6 but not play the b7. Right? For eg. the first bars of Black Orpheus are usually harmonized
Am7 | Bm7b5 E7alt | Am7 ...
A quick video of what I think I'm supposed to do, then second also what I think I'm supposed to do? Not sure:
I think the most basic BH scale practice would be Am(both 6s no 7) up and down, G7 up, E7 up, Am up and down. I am sure there are variants and more complex versions, but this would be the scale practice for BH 101. I got this from the Howard Rees DVD, but I don't see it mentioned much. I'm not sure I've well understood.
I never see anyone mention the all six/no seven minor scale. It makes me begin to doubt that I've understood it at all. Should I be playing E7 scale over the Am7 because of the whole there is no "two" thing? Is it really E7 up and down, G7 up and down, E7 up and down(the second example)? I know that music is what we make of it, and there is no one right way, blah, blah, blah. What I'm asking is for those who actually had the opportunity to study with Barry Harris, what would he say?
I never see all the different ways to practice this all six/no seven minor scale like I see for the dominant scale. When does Barry suggest practicing the all six/no seven scale? Is it used regularly for building solos in BH's teaching and it is just somehow in my blind spot?
Again, sorry for posting such a basic nuts and bolts question.
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
PCJazz, I would not speculate without the actual song. I have to look myself as I do not know the song so well (which I should as it is a nice song that is played often I think). But from what I remember the song starts on tonic minor which then would be played as a minor 6th chord. The II-V in the second bar speaks for that. As I said I have to check. Originally Posted by pcjazz
Regarding the minor II-V in a scale map you would not outline it with the dominant 7th scale of major (a.k.a. “mixolydian”) normally but as following:
1 bar (which is the case here) — play the 7th scale a minor 3rd above the dominant down from the 7th but instead of on the tonic end on the 3rd of the dominant of the minor key (a half step higher), in this case G7 down to the 3rd of E:
F E D C B A G# (“G7 down to the 3rd of E”, a way of “playing the G7 scale into the E7 scale”).
A 1-bar scale outline ends on the 4 of that bar
2 bars (if that was the case) — play G7 up and down to the 3rd of E:
G A B C D E F E D C B A G#
A 2-bar scale outline ends on the 3 of the second bar
For a minor tonic or if a subdominant was played as minor 6th you can either play the minor sixth diminished scale up to the sixth (and back down for 2 bars) or play “ascending melodic minor” (which is played the same way descending in jazz — a.k.a. “jazz minor”) up to the 7th and back down for 2 bars. In this case (Am6):
A B C D E F F# (1 bar) or A B C D E F F# F E D C B A (2 bars)
or
A B C D E F# G# (1bar) or A B C D F# G# F# E D C B A (2 bars)
[The ascending melodic minor I got from an answer by pianist Shan Verma to an e-mail I once wrote to him regarding the scale outline map of Autumn Leaves. BTW he was very kind to answer my question but he wrote that he is very busy with his students and does not have much time answering other than their e-mails. So please do not write to him unless you want to become a student of JazzSkills (which I am not although he would teach guitarists or players of any instrument improv and harmony as well) and better ask you questions here.]
What you did wrong in your video example regarding the progression you wrote is playing the outline up and down as it should be only one bar phrases (You could maybe do it in sixteenth notes but that does not make much sense here. I tried double time scale outlines recently for the ballad Born To Be Blue where the chords changes are half-bar.)
I will check Manhã de Carnaval now and let you know what I think.
EDIT: I just saw that rlrhett was asking for someone who studied under Barry directly. I did not so maybe someone who did can chime in and correct me if I am wrong.Last edited by Bop Head; 10-08-2022 at 01:21 AM.
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Thank you, BopHead. I think you answered my question. You WOULD play the minor scale up to the sixth for the tonic minor, not turn it into a dominant.
Because it is easier for me to communicate by video, here is a follow on. If I understand you right, Barry Harris would have you do the first version, where I use the all six/no seven scale over the Am tonic, a G7 scale into an E7 scale for the ii-V, and back to the all six/no seven scale. (Sorry about the terrible audio)
To my ears that sounds better, but I'm just confused because I can find no videos of Barry Harris talking about playing into or out of this scale. There doesn't seem to be any half-step rules or stock "get out of jail free" moves like there are for the dominant scale. For such an important part of a solo on a minor tune, it seems to be invisible. But, of course, I've never been to a Barry Harris workshop. All my knowledge of Barry Harris comes from here, YouTuber's like Chris Parks, and the Howard Rees DVD's. There is probably a huge body of videos and YouTubes where Barry spends hours talking about how to practice this scale and develop lines from it.
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This is from the original Orfeu Negro soundtrack (1959 — in E minor) …
Bresil (Bande Originale Du Film "Orfeu Negro" / Carnaval A Rio En Direct) : Various : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
… and this is another version by composer Luiz Bonfá (same year — in A minor).
From what I hear so far he starts the theme with plain minor chords. [So your A–7 is definitely a post-bop / modal interpretation.]
| A– / / / | D– / E7 / | A– / (E7 /)* | A– / (E7 /)* | etc.
which I would interpret as
| A–6 / / / | D–/B** / E7 / | A–6 / / / | / / / / | etc.
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* This dominant is just there for embellishment / movement and can be ignored I think.
** “D minor with the 6th in the bass” = B–7/b5
_____
so what I wrote above applies:
| A min dim up resp. A MM up | G7 down to 3rd of E | A min dim up resp. A MM up | A min dim up resp. A MM up | etc.
I have to transcribe further — this is really beautiful and uncomplicated tune. Thanks for pointing me to that
.
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For Barry a minor tonic is never a minor 7th chord, always a minor 6th chord (resp. a minor maj7th which would be a minor 6th with the maj7th borrowed from the corresponding diminished chord in place of the 6th, e.g. C–maj7 has the B borrowed from the Do in place of the A). Playing it as a minor 7th chord is a post-bop / modal thing. Originally Posted by rlrhett
But yes, the tune definitely starts on the tonic minor as you can see in my follow-up post (and before all the melody forces you to hear it like that).
I will put the scale outline into musescore and upload it. A scale map like that serves the purpose of
- outlining the chords of the tune (this is not improvisation yet!!! but an outline — not to be confused with the half step rules)
- through putting chord tones on beats (which helps you to hear them as the strong important notes) and passing notes on “ands” (try playing the chord notes as quarter notes instead — I will write that into the PDF as well: e.g. A C E F# in quarter notes becomes A B C D E F F# in eighth notes by putting in passing notes between the chord tones.)
- outlining the form by those 1- resp. 2-bar phrases
- giving you the sound of basic pitch collections that fit over the chords
Again: This is not improvisation yet but outlines — you are not supposed to run them up and down over and over again which would make you again “sound like the pages of a phone book” (Joe Henderson on the abuse of academic chord scale theory).
For improvisation nothing can prevent you from shedding the half step rules (which apply first of all to descending scale runs) and triad and seventh/sixth chord arpeggios in all inversions.
EDIT: The sound quality is totally OK for demonstration purposes.
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Indeed Barry doesn’t advocate the use of m7 chords for tonic chords and actually not many do…. this sound is generally thought to be a ‘modal minor’ when used this way. It makes me think more of Wes and maybe a soul jazz vibe.
but one thing you can do if you want that sound which sounds great for like playing is treat it as a ii V which is to say, use the related dominant chord.
So if you are playing So What, use the G7 and Ab7 scales. In the case of Black Orpheus play the D7 scale on the Am7 chord.
Sounds great. Barry Harris can be applied to all sorts of things.
Here’s a video I did on this sort of thing, particularly at 12:00 after a brief demo of some basic added notes rules, triads, chords and pivots.
Given Barry’s taste in music this may seem heretical and I daresay he wouldn’t have approved, but actually it works really well, and I’m reminded of the fact that so many NYC fusion players used bop as a jumping off point. The utility of Barry’s tools extend way beyond playing bop and standards.
sorry slight tangent there. Anyway it’s a bit of fun.Last edited by Christian Miller; 10-08-2022 at 03:51 AM.
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Thanks for confusing someone more who is already a bit confused about the BH stuff Originally Posted by Christian Miller
.
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This is my PDF. You could as well change between the two possible outlines for the tonic minor, e.g. play sixth diminished in bar 3 and MM in bar 4.
It might take a while to get used to the sound of the minor sixth chord but if you listen to older styles you will hear it everywhere.
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As my ears slowly become a little bit more sophisticated I realise that is nothing that sounds like a minor triad. Originally Posted by Bop Head
This is from the original Orfeu Negro soundtrack (1959 — in E minor) …
Bresil (Bande Originale Du Film "Orfeu Negro" / Carnaval A Rio En Direct) : Various : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
… and this is another version by composer Luiz Bonfá (same year — in A minor).
From what I hear so far he starts the theme with plain minor chords. [So your A–7 is definitely a post-bop / modal interpretation.]
| A– / / / | D– / E7 / | A– / (E7 /)* | A– / (E7 /)* | etc.
which I would interpret as
| A–6 / / / | D–/B** / E7 / | A–6 / / / | / / / / | etc.
_____
* This dominant is just there for embellishment / movement and can be ignored I think.
** “D minor with the 6th in the bass” = B–7/b5
_____
so what I wrote above applies:
| A min dim up resp. A MM up | G7 down to 3rd of E | A min dim up resp. A MM up | A min dim up resp. A MM up | etc.
I have to transcribe further — this is really beautiful and uncomplicated tune. Thanks for pointing me to that.
(The other thing is that the changes for Bossa tunes given in American fake books etc are usually pretty bad. Bossa harmony is not quite the same thing as bop harmony either.)
Sometimes the best policy is not to include a sixth or seventh. The add 9 can be a nice alternative sometimes but it depends on the melody.
Barry himself would favour the m6-dim for this application over the MM (not sure why I’m sure there’s a reason) but you can use either.
so the outline I would use would actually be
A m6-dim | G7 down to the third of E7 | etc
so what you have but with m6-dim instead of MM. Tbh id practice both.
As a super quibble I’d say if you aren’t happy simply calling Bm7b5, Dm6 might make the relationship with G9 more obvious.
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Did you mean there is nothing that sounds better than a minor triad in such a case? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Or did you mean you do not hear a plain A minor triad at 0:12 in the YT video?
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I don’t know if this helps, but here Chris P. talks about using minor 6 lines on tonic minor.
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Well, you don’t come across as confused. (I know you were joking but even so) Originally Posted by Bop Head
Thanks for confusing someone more who is already a bit confused about the BH stuff.
I would say that one thing I would tell any student interested in learning this stuff is to focus on one area for a while. Don’t get overwhelmed and remember it’s easier to talk about this stuff than it is to do it.
Barry’s classes could be a real acid test of how well you could apply things in the moment.
for example, it took me months to get the scale outlines together at tempo. You don’t want to be trudging through this stuff slowly, Barry would call it at bop tempo c240.
I remember getting roasted really badly in this area of the class and it was sobering because I thought I knew my scales - and did after a fashion, in big two octave + positions utterly unsuited to this type of thing.
So, I made a vow to at least be able to do this one thing well enough so I wouldn’t be sitting like a slack jawed idiot in that part of the class. Scales up to the seventh and back in every position in eight notes at 240.
And by the next visit I was ready.
Barry used to say to us Londoners ‘I can’t teach you to play jazz, I can only make you ready for my next visit’ haha. The extended Barry entourage and those who went to the class in NYC could get that weekly or even daily input but for us filthy casuals the best thing we could do is prepare in the interim.
Slowly I managed to participate in more and more of the class and didn’t feel I had to hide out at the edge so much.
it took a lot of work to get to that point for me. I think this is something that gets lost in endless YouTube videos but when Barry goes ‘Am-6 up and down 1 2 3 4’ you could still be like a rabbit in the headlights. This is the key bit of context you can’t get from YT vids really. Now Barry’s gone you have to do it yourself (or find a teacher I guess, or the DVDs). Test yourself and be honest.
Practical skills as Reg calls it. He would quibble only in the specifics I suspect, not the spirit.Last edited by Christian Miller; 10-08-2022 at 04:55 AM.
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yes, sometimes it’s got to be that, and anything you add to it just takes away. Originally Posted by Bop Head
sometimes it’s not the case.
That’s why music is an art haha
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I am not confused at all (I think I got a pretty good grasp of the matter — theorically) but rlrhett obviously was — that is what I meant. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
What you describe about the workshops is described by others, e.g. Chris Parks, in interviews as well.
And what you say about learning the stuff one after another which will take quite a while — that’s why I said you should not confuse rlrhett before he had the basics down which means e.g. minor tonics are exclusively sixth chords in Barry’s old school bebop view of the world (of course if you are not using plain triads). I am aware of that but you remind me that I should probably concentrate more on improvisation and single-note technique than on chording for now — that is where I lack most. I do not want to remain the eternal comper. And it does not help if I can only sing the half-step and arpeggio stuff (which is probably not the worst thing to do) but cannot bring it out on the instrument.
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it’s good to know I wasn’t the only one lol. Originally Posted by Bop Head
tbh I’ve not watched much of Chris’s stuff, or anybody else in the Barry sphere (I don’t tend to watch much jazz edu content on YT) and glad they mention this aspect. I’ve watched enough to know they’re very good. it bears repeating.
It’s easy to lie to oneself in the practice room.
Oh yeah I think I missed the context. Sorry. Can be frustrating when you are trying to get something across.And what you say about learning the stuff one after another which will take quite a while — that’s why I said you should not confuse rlrhett before he had the basics down which means e.g. minor tonics are exclusively sixth chords in Barry’s old school bebop view of the world (of course if you are not using plain triads).
But there you go, it’s an online forum, what you gonna do?
Btw any competent jazz instructor with ears would tell you m7 chords are not a good choice for tonic chords in straightahead jazz but that’s kind of a separate issue to the 6th chord thing.
I would recommend this from my own experience. But everyone’s different of course.I am aware of that but you remind me that I should probably concentrate more on improvisation and single-note technique than on chording for now — that is where I lack most. I do not want to remain the eternal comper. And it does not help if I can only sing the half-step and arpeggio stuff (which is probably not the worst thing to do) but cannot bring it out on the instrument.
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meh Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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well I suppose Wes did, so ymmv Originally Posted by djg
i got told off for it though and good thing too haha
i suppose a better way to say it is that a good teacher will help you become more aware of the specifics
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