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  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by dasein View Post
    Any resources where Barry (or an acolyte) talks about dom7 lines resolving to I?.................
    I'm sure this is covered in the Workshop Videos.

    We run our descending scale with as many extra half steps as we want and (for instance) when we reach beat 3 before the one chord, run a Related Diminished of the Dominant. There are dozens of variations just on the diminished on the last two beats. You will notice upon playing a Related Diminished you will be close to the 5th or 3rd or tonic of the Major.

    Then Christian's suggestion of 5432 Phrases is a great one!

    I wish I could stay awake until 2am.


    To see some variations on the Related Diminished resolving to One see post #78 of this thread.
    Last edited by A. Kingstone; 05-15-2018 at 08:35 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #202

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Where exactly? I think I missed that bit...
    Yeah, my mistake. Read the thread too quickly before going off to a gig and missed that the question was how half-step rules on a dominant scale can facilitate resolutions to the I rather than 'come out right' in themselves. Like you, Christian I simply practised all this stuff including the 5-4-3-2 phrases intensely for a period and now apply it intuitively, guided by my ear. BH talks about the latter phrases as a means of 'getting out of trouble' and they all work well as V-I appendages to a dominant-based line.

    I've found the parental chromatic major (mentioned in the second part of the BH Workshops) to be equally effective as it ensures that scale rather than simply chord tones line up rhythmically. For instance, a descending C chromatic major line in even eighth notes, D-Db-C-(D)-B-Bb-A-Ab-G-Gb-F-(G)-E-Eb-D could be played over two bars of the dominant (G7), a ii-V (one bar each of D-7 and G7), a turnaround (E-7 A7 | D-7 G7) or a short ii-V-I (D-7 G7 | Cmaj7 C6).

  4. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone View Post
    I'm sure this is covered in the Workshop Videos.

    We run our descending scale with as many extra half steps as we want and (for instance) when we reach beat 3 before the one chord, run a Related Diminished of the Dominant.
    I always wondered what Barry Harris exactly means by "a line rhythmically coming out right" (see my post #194). As it doesn't seem like he just means chord tones on the down beat.
    Based on your explanation above I am understanding that half steps are more about targeting a note and getting that target note on the down beat rather than what happens along the way. Is that correct?
    Last edited by Tal_175; 05-15-2018 at 09:38 PM.

  5. #204

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    I always wondered what Barry Harris exactly means by "a line rhythmically coming out right" (see my post #194). As he it doesn't seem like he just means chord tones on the down beat.
    Based on your explanation above I am understanding that half steps are more about targeting a note and getting that target note on the down beat rather than what happens along the way. Is that correct?

    I don't know for sure. I always trusted his words and demonstration without further explanation.

    All the strong beat weak beat ideas seems to work themselves out while following Barry's 'Extra Note Rules'. Maybe that's just his way of saying the same thing. He used to call it the 'Half Step Rules' but Barry amended them because " The Rule Is More Important Than The Scale".

    This subtlety is explained in Rees' Workshop Video #2.

  6. #205

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    Well, I went to the workshop tonight. It was in a different rehearsal space, and it seems like they run a much tighter ship -- we were out by midnight.

    I asked Barry at the end of the class about getting back to I.

    "Do you use the related diminished?"
    "Yeah."

    So there ya go -- clearly, nothing more can be said on the subject.

    I mean, it was a noisy, crowded room at midnight, and I was just some schlub that came in off the street, and the man is 88 years old. He wasn't going to give me a dissertation on it.

    He's definitely looking a bit more frail, but he was still spilling out bebop lines like it was nothing. Bless that man.

  7. #206

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    Things I've Learned From Barry Harris
    - YouTube


    Love this new channel by Chris purely about Barry Harris stuff. I think the more perspectives we get on the same material is really helpful!

  8. #207

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    I taught the dim connection thing to a student today. The cycle continues.

  9. #208

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikhilhogan View Post
    Things I've Learned From Barry Harris
    - YouTube


    Love this new channel by Chris purely about Barry Harris stuff. I think the more perspectives we get on the same material is really helpful!
    I have to second that, this channel is great. Especially for those who are new to Barry Harris method, it's a fantastic place to start. But even for people who already had a lot of exposure to this stuff, it's a great way to review and reinforce the material. Thanks for pointing out the channel.

  10. #209

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    Barry Harris scale demonstration for jazz blues shows the scales choices for diatonic quick turnaround.
    That is, | Imaj7 VImin | IImin V7|. The scales are (I don't have the book with me but I think this is how it goes):
    I major for the whole 11th bar and V dominant scale for the 12th.
    What would the scale choice be for all dominant quick turnaround as very commonly found in repertoire ? ie | I7 VI7 | II7 V7|
    The blues example in the book has VI7 in the slow turnaround (bar 8). In this case IMaj is "played into" VI7 by playing I major for the bars of 7 and 8 but ending the scale on the 3rd of VI. There isn't enough time to do that for the quick turnaround if we ascend from the root, hence I'm wondering what BH approach would suggest here. Of course you can just do I Dom for the bar 11 and V Dom for the 12. Seems a little disrespectful to VI7 though.

  11. #210
    You do the descendng from the maj 7 to the major 3rd of the major VI... almost positive thats in one of the examples in the first dvd workbook
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  12. #211
    or from the b7 of course depending on context
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  13. #212

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    You do the descendng from the maj 7 to the major 3rd of the major VI... almost positive thats in one of the examples in the first dvd workbook
    You mean from the 7th of VI7?

    EDIT: I just saw your second post, I guess that's what you mean.

  14. #213
    yeah but in the work books he does say to do straight up major turnarounds. just looked at the book, for the blues example he plays I major up and down (implying vi min) do V7 up and down. horwever in Indiana, he does it how I mentioned
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  15. #214

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    or from the b7 of course depending on context
    Or is it 7th of I7 to 3rd of VI?
    So for Bb blues 8th bar is |Bb7 G7|, we play
    Ab G F Eb D C B(rest at & of 4)?

  16. #215
    right, first i said from the maj 7th of the I, then I meant to say you could also do it from the b7 of the I
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  17. #216

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  18. #217

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    Hey guys I've got a question, how would you Barry Harrisize this bar of chords:

    | Eb7 D7 |
    or
    | Am7b5 D7 |

    the context is this is from All God's Chillun Got Rhythm the last 8 bars
    | Bm7 E7 | Am7 D7 | Gm7 C7 | Eb7 D7|
    | Gm7 | C7 | F (D7 | Gm7 C7) |

    scales i've got, except the bar in question:
    | E7 up | D7 up | C7 up | ? |
    | C7 up | and down | F Maj up | C7 up|

  19. #218
    I would practice it with F7 DOWN to the 3rd of D7 (F#). he does this on Indiana in the first dvd/workbook
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  20. #219
    This is pretty common for instance F maj to D7 would be the same (except starting maj 7th)
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  21. #220

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    Are you Chris?

  22. #221

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    Just subscribed. Thanks for doing this.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  23. #222

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    Quote Originally Posted by sjl View Post
    Are you Chris?
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    Just subscribed. Thanks for doing this.

    I'm not Chris!! I just found it myself and thought I'd share it to the thread! Please don't mistake me for this guy! Im not taking any credit for any of his videos!

    Ozzy

  24. #223

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    I would practice it with F7 DOWN to the 3rd of D7 (F#). he does this on Indiana in the first dvd/workbook
    Thanks! that makes sense with the |Am7b5 to D7| but how would you explain F7 to 3rd of D7 over | Eb7 to D7|?

  25. #224
    The short answer in my opinion is it works for both.

    Longer answer:

    We have a cadence pulling to the ii chord in this bar. The accompanist and soloist can swap out any number of movements here that pull to the ii, and they don’t have to be the same.

    1. a-7b5 to D7, F7, Ab7, or B7 ( or any of those with a b5)
    2. Gb7, A7, C7, Eb7 (or any of those with b5) to D7
    a million ii-v or ii-7b5 to v combos
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  26. #225
    if you try out these movements that may seem too far out, make sure you’re using good voice leading
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  27. #226

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz View Post
    I'm not Chris!! I just found it myself and thought I'd share it to the thread! Please don't mistake me for this guy! Im not taking any credit for any of his videos!

    Ozzy
    Well if Chris is on this forum, THANK YOU. Those videos are great at demystifying the BH DVDs I have.

    A huge takeaway was that running the scales over the changes is an exercise to train your ear to hear the changes and the different pitch collections, not really as a way of developing improvised lines. I always thought, "this isn't musical. What kind of lines are you going to build doing this?" Now I understand the exercise better and appreciate it.

    If you are out there reading this, keep up the good work!

  28. #227

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    The short answer in my opinion is it works for both.

    Longer answer:

    We have a cadence pulling to the ii chord in this bar. The accompanist and soloist can swap out any number of movements here that pull to the ii, and they don’t have to be the same.

    1. a-7b5 to D7, F7, Ab7, or B7 ( or any of those with a b5)
    2. Gb7, A7, C7, Eb7 (or any of those with b5) to D7
    a million ii-v or ii-7b5 to v combos
    If I am understanding this correctly the first group is the family of four of F7. The second group seems to be the family of four of the secondary dominant of F7 (C7). So the secondary dominant can be treated like the target dominant? (Ie. C7 family be treated like F7)

  29. #228
    right. The first group are dominants from the bii dimished chord which pulls to ii

    The second group is from the related dimished of the key which pulls to I, iii, vi, or in this case VI7

    Although if we’re talking in scondary dominants, which i haven’t seen in BH materials, the first group would be D7 (secondary dom of ii) and second group would be from A7 (secondary dom of vi)

    there’s endless options with maj and min 6th chords i couldnt even begin to type up here.

    If you guys working on maj 6 dim scales, try playing the Bb maj 6 dim scale for the bar preceeding the gminor and land on a gmin/Bb6 there on beat one
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  30. #229

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    What is Barry Harris talking about at 7 minute mark and onwards about the bIIdim and #IIdim, and how does it relate to the blues he's playing?

    He says ''Really, if I was playing some slow blues I don't like the G7 at all.''

  31. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    Well if Chris is on this forum, THANK YOU. Those videos are great at demystifying the BH DVDs I have.

    A huge takeaway was that running the scales over the changes is an exercise to train your ear to hear the changes and the different pitch collections, not really as a way of developing improvised lines. I always thought, "this isn't musical. What kind of lines are you going to build doing this?" Now I understand the exercise better and appreciate it.

    If you are out there reading this, keep up the good work!
    I have personally found it very good for expanding my fretboard knowledge though this may not be an intentional aspect of the exercise.

  32. #231

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    Quote Originally Posted by N.T View Post


    What is Barry Harris talking about at 7 minute mark and onwards about the bIIdim and #IIdim, and how does it relate to the blues he's playing?

    He says ''Really, if I was playing some slow blues I don't like the G7 at all.''
    He plays Bb7 C#o7 Cm7 F7 in the slow blues

    Also he doesn’t play the Eo7 if you listen, even though it’s tempting at that tempo.

  33. #232

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    Quote Originally Posted by N.T View Post


    What is Barry Harris talking about at 7 minute mark and onwards about the bIIdim and #IIdim, and how does it relate to the blues he's playing?

    He says ''Really, if I was playing some slow blues I don't like the G7 at all.''
    He talks about approaching the ii minor chord at bar 8 of the blues. If that’s Cm(in Bb blues) you would usually approach it with a G7 which is Bdim, i.e. bIIdim.
    For slow blues would usually hear Barry use C#m chord or C#dim instead to approach the Cm7. So instead of a ii-V Dm7-G7 you will get Dm7-C#dim which gives a nice chromatic descent into the Cm7.

    Listen to Barry play a slow blues like Parker’s Mood:

    Live at Maybeck 12 Barry Harris - Live at Maybeck 12 - Amazon.com Music

    Cheers,
    Tamir

  34. #233

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    Also, that bIIIo7 sound relates to this sort of thing (in F)

    F/A | Abm7 Eb7 | Gm7 | C7

    Which you see in Blues for Alice and Dance of the Infidels....

  35. #234

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    Also he doesn’t play the Eo7 if you listen, even though it’s tempting at that tempo.
    As in going back to the I7?

  36. #235

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikhilhogan View Post
    Hey guys I've got a question, how would you Barry Harrisize this bar of chords:

    | Eb7 D7 |
    or
    | Am7b5 D7 |

    the context is this is from All God's Chillun Got Rhythm the last 8 bars
    | Bm7 E7 | Am7 D7 | Gm7 C7 | Eb7 D7|
    | Gm7 | C7 | F (D7 | Gm7 C7) |

    scales i've got, except the bar in question:
    | E7 up | D7 up | C7 up | ? |
    | C7 up | and down | F Maj up | C7 up|
    Am7b5 relates to F9, so we run (as Joe said):

    F7 down to the third of D7

    Eb D C Bb A G F#

  37. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by N.T View Post
    As in going back to the I7?
    Yes.

  38. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Also he doesn’t play the Eo7 if you listen, even though it’s tempting at that tempo.
    In Parker’s Mood from Barry’s Maybeck Recital he does play that Edim. Usually on 2nd Bar going back to the one.
    To me, his solo there is simply perfection Official Barry Harris Thread

  39. #238

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    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    In Parker’s Mood from Barry’s Maybeck Recital he does play that Edim. Usually on 2nd Bar going back to the one.
    To me, his solo there is simply perfection Official Barry Harris Thread
    Cool. I will listen to that when i get a chance.

  40. #239

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    Blue Sonny 16:44

    Barry uses a lot of the same language in his slow blues.

    I dig his sound! And I made a backing track for myself off the first 12 bars.

  41. #240

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    Quote Originally Posted by N.T View Post


    Blue Sonny 16:44

    Barry uses a lot of the same language in his slow blues.

    I dig his sound! And I made a backing track for myself off the first 12 bars.
    Great Album! Wish he had more choruses on this one. But you do get to hear him accompanying Grant Green, how cool is that!

    Are you familiar with this one?


    An iconic example of him playing the blues, he takes many choruses, most of which insane. Don’t know anyone playing and sounding like that. Around 4:40 he slows down to a slow blues tempo.

    Cheers,
    Tamir

  42. #241

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    Quick question about running the scales to learn a tune (from the workshop DVDS):

    In “How High the Moon” we have a minor 2-5 going to Gm in bar 10. I either missed or didn’t understand the explanation why we use an F7 rather than D7.

    I get that D7 and F7 are “siblings”, but the fact that it is done as a matter of course without discussion suggests that this is the preferred way of learning this progression rather than a creative substitution.

    Can anyone point me to where that is discussed, or help me with an explanation?

    Thanks.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  43. #242
    The F7 scale is the correct scale to use on an A-7b5, because you're treating it like an F9. Dominant is the default scale (we don't don't think modes like Locrian.) Also, that movement of playing a scale and landing on a tone a half step above the tonic should already be familiar because it's used in other situations like C to A7. Plus it sounds great, it's a defining sound of be-bop to me.
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  44. #243

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    Yes I was going to say an F7 scale maps much better over both of the chords in that turnaround, Am7b5 and D7alt.

    A D7 scale would be too ‘straight’, it has none of the altered notes you want to employ.

  45. #244

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    You could use D7 alternatively, but it kind of takes you out of the minor key a bit, but you do get lines that do that.... Good example would be Blues for Alice, where the line outlines an A7 dominant scale on Em7b5/A7.

    Anyway, that's a little more 'spicy' than running F7 to the third of D7, which is standard for scale outlines.

    When building lines, use the F7 language and connect using the diminished (Ao7) into the target Gm chord. It's neat, because there's little difference from playing a line into a Bb. Anyway, have fun.

  46. #245

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  47. #246

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    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    Perfect! Just the analysis I needed. Thanks!

  48. #247

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Yes I was going to say an F7 scale maps much better over both of the chords in that turnaround, Am7b5 and D7alt.

    A D7 scale would be too ‘straight’, it has none of the altered notes you want to employ.
    When you refer to 7th scales, are you referring to the Dominant Diminished (ie a Dominant 7 with a diminished built on the maj. 7 degree) or plain harmony mixolydian? I see the "Seventh Diminished" listed as the third of four scales in Alan Kingstone's book, but all I can find is Major and Minor 6 Diminished in use.

    My guess would be that it's a more straightforward V sound (vs the minor 6 diminished on the II, or bVI which) but with added movement? Or good for secondary dominants?

    This thread is great. I'll really have to write /play some of this stuff out. Amazing how this fits together, to think I was haphazardly just throwing diminished chords around before.... wow!

  49. #248

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    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    I showed the BirdFeed article to Howard Rees, who pointed out that we are really talking about two scales here, C7 "played into" A7 to outline Em7b5 - A7. This line on the minor ii-V is a particular case of running two related dominants together to outline a chord progression. The general topic is discussed in the first Barry Harris workbook starting at page 21.

    I have attached my own chart about running one dominant into another to outline various progressions. Hope this helps.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  50. #249

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    It could also be seen as linking the dominant to the target chord via a dim7. This is actually the interpretation I am getting into now, you can bring in the dim7 when ever you like.

  51. #250

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    Of course that dim7 can be used as a gateway to any of the other brothers and sisters