The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1151

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisVane
    Are his books available in English somewhere? I've found a German version only on Amazon...
    There used to be English versions of the old large editions (the latest German only editions of “Grundlagenharmonik” by Pöhlert’s adopted son Jochen are shortened to a little above 100 pages) called “Basic Harmony & basic harmonical mode of thinking” which seems to be hard to find these days. I could not find a single copy for sale yesterday.

    You could consult WorldCat to see if there is a copy available in a library near you or via remote loan or check the web regularly if someone sells a copy. Good luck.

    This is Pöhlert in the fifties in a jazz club in Mannheim.

    Official Barry Harris Thread-710009_1_teaser1024r056_img_01420579-jpg

    Later he got his own Höfner signature model.


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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #1152

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Not sure if this will make any sense but this is a thing I was preparing on the nature of basic cadential progressions. Notice how it confirms what Barry says about them even though it starts with Renaissance counterpoint.
    What I was asking for was a specific analysis of Dizzy’s intro.

    BTW as I was talking about W. Pöhlert: Here he is with his Rennaissance ensemble.

  4. #1153

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bop Head
    What I was asking for was a specific analysis of Dizzy’s intro.

    BTW as I was talking about W. Pöhlert: Here he is with his Rennaissance ensemble.
    Ok yeah I don’t like harmonic theory based on root movement much. I mean I think it has value, but it bugs me when people say that’s a ‘reason’ why things are the way they are because it’s not. It’s not a reason. It’s an observed behaviour (JP Rameau came up with this idea of root movement, before then it was all counterpoint.)

    Barry didn’t teach that way really. He sometimes told stories like the diminished scale creation myth (as I think of it) but I don’t think he was that exercised about reasons.

    in terms of jazz progressions progs move in fourths all the time, so it’s a good ‘harmony 101’ description, it’s not bad teaching to say that. That sort of pattern recognition is essential for the budding jazz player to develop, everyone agrees.

    but there’s a deeper understanding that I find much more compelling, and I think that also relates to what Barry was teaching. I also think for soloing over trickier versions of this type of progression there’s better ways to look at it.

    In terms of analysis, it’s reasonable to say the first few chords of Rm Intro are backcycling because it iirc the bass is moving in fourths. (If that’s the bit you mean.)

    But the bass is less the mechanism of why these chords move than the voices within them. In chord symbol terms

    Cm6 Co7 Bbm6 Bbo7 Abm6 Abo7
    or as you say
    Cm6 B7b5 Bbm6 A7b5 Abm6 G7b5
    does the same basic thing as
    Am7b5 D7 Gm7b5 C7 Fm7b5 Bb7

    So it has nothing to do with the bass. The progression is actually emergent from what I think of as ‘staggered descending stepwise parallel motion’ (sorry about that mouthful lol, need a post or video explaining that maybe) in the middle voices. Cycle 4 progressions are a type of suspension chain and have no more fundamental significance imo. This is simply a more chromatic example.

    The reason I bring this up is one of the basic Barry exercises is a suspension chain through the 6-dim scale.

    In terms of soloing through a prog like this I would choose. Barry said that you shouldn’t get too hung up on the dims (third of the Dom/harmonic minor) so you use dominant scale vocab to the max.

    F7 (F#o7) Eb7 (Eo7) Db7 (Do7)

    Again, descending vibes

    Hope that’s vaguely coherent, I’m not super coherent today lol
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 10-01-2022 at 07:41 AM.

  5. #1154

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    But the bass is less the mechanism of why these chords move than the voices within them. In chord symbol terms

    Cm6 Co7 Bbm6 Bbo7 Abm6 Abo7
    or as you say
    Cm6 B7b5 Bbm6 A7b5 Abm6 G7b5
    does the same basic thing as
    Am7b5 D7 Gm7b5 C7 Fm7b5 Bb7
    Moving bass is very ear catching. It's as powerful aesthetic resource for arranging harmony. Also pedaling on a bass note is somewhat less interesting IMO than pedalling on a treble note. It seems to me that the emphasis on middle voice movement vs bass movement is a matter of balance, no?

  6. #1155

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Moving bass is very ear catching. It's as powerful aesthetic resource for arranging harmony. Also pedaling on a bass note is somewhat less interesting IMO than pedalling on a treble note. It seems to me that the emphasis on middle voice movement vs bass movement is a matter of balance, no?
    Yeah, another way of putting it is that cycle 4 is interpolated cycle 7 (useful Mick Goodrick VLA exercises as well maybe). or in English, backcycling prog is just a descending bassline with an extra bass note between each chord.

    You can break them up even more - 3rd and a step for instance (Bach liked that one) or invert them into all sorts of nice sounding things. Anyway.

    Bass is really important you are right, it affects the sound of these things fundamentally. I always like Schoenberg’s description of bass as ‘the second melody.’

    In invertible counterpoint (such as cycle 4 shells) any line can be the bass. But for this reason I don’t see bass as fundamental to this stuff anymore than the other voices.

    Anyway, pedals are great. Go listen to the St John passion and tell me bass pedals aren’t cool haha. Treble is great too.

    So much of it is in Bach (and Barry would say Chopin too:-))

  7. #1156

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    Yea... root motion is also implied with counterpoint. What do cycles imply?

  8. #1157

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea... root motion is also implied with counterpoint. What do cycles imply?
    Begone with your Rameau-ian balderdash. God created the intervals. Everything else is the work of man...

    In seriousness, while JP Rameau apparenlty never intended his theory to be practical so much as theoretical (yes there is a difference JGO) in the end its ended up being supremely practical. Ask anyone in Nashville what a chord root is... Ask AC/DC even lol. Just make sure it's not Angus, the bass player would know. That's where we've ended up...

    I think the principle of theoretical root can be quite useful (isn't that generous of me haha). It's not nothing to know that 4-6, 7-6 and 6-5 suspension chains are all manifestations of the same cyclic root movement... but it's also at the same time, not is it that of a big deal? If Rameau is the Newton of music does it matter to the football player why the ball falls and by which equation...?

    I mean, at the end of the day different inversions do different things. Every musician has to learn that the inversions all sound different. Same is true for the top of the chord...

    It's different when the melody goes 7-1 and when it goes 4-3 (as you can see from bop heads and standards melodies) it's different when the bass goes 5-1 and when it goes 7-1. And so on... Bach said it was all mi and fa (which includes 3/4 and 1/7 in modern theory - hexachords innit) and I think I'd rather hear what Bach has to say on harmony that Rameau. Not saying Rameau was crap, he wasn't, just Bach is ... well.. a bit more influential a musician wouldn't you say? Rameau is remembered more like the George Russell of the 18th century or something, a theory wonk. As with Russell, more people have read his theory (or been influenced even unwittingly second or third hand, such as in the work of Werner P above) than have checked out his music....

    This may also happen to Barry, which would suck, because he was first and foremost a badass on piano.

    Bach was a teacher too, you know, and we even know the sorts of things he used to teach, amazingly. He didn't write some dumb ass book though haha. (Although his son's book is good)....

    That said, on jazz guitar (I'm sure that was involved somewhere along the line maybe haha) actually it's quite useful to practice lots of ways of voice leading cycle 4 progressions, because, of course, we live in the world created by Rameau, the world of theoretical roots and, chord symbols. And Autumn Leaves etc...

    (And the bass bloody says what inversion it is every time you play with one, it's not mandated by the music the way it is in the baroque era (but not so much in a duo...)

    And yet ultimately, the root movement is also completely unimportant. It's just a label. Convenient when it is convenient (as it is in cycle 4 progressions), worth forgetting about when it is not. If you know the song, and how it all sounds...

    Theory is a matter of convenience. Do not confuse it for anything fundamental...

    Weirdly we've also ended up in a place with modern applications of CST that is, well inversion-phobic just the way 18th century theory was. The root becomes synonymous the bass more often these days it seems to me. D/C as a C lydian chord, Em7#5 as a phrygian and so on, Are they inversions of other chords, or are they modal colour? The answer is probably yes...

    It's a bit like Adam Rogers or some other chord scale guy saying 'play C# locrian on A7' it sounds different to the A mixolydian - look there in the bridge of Lady be Good, Lester Young did it... Yes I suppose you could say he did. And yes, it does sound different.

    But Barry Harris students would say 'G7 scale from the third'.... And spend more time practicing two or three scales very thoroughly.

    Ah, I try not to talk politics too much on JGO. Mostly it's in what Mick Goodrick calls 'parallel' and 'derivative' applications.... I'm try not to quibble too much when someone calls Spring Onions 'Scallions'... (Even if it sounds like something a pirate might say, I quite enjoy that when I'm making dinner. Harrrrrrr! Hoist the mainsail me hearties!!! Maybe using Berklee terminology makes you sound like a Vulcan...)

    And when it comes to root movement Mick Goodrick put it well, as usual. Vol 1: Name that chord, vol 2: don't name that chord. He's still very much in that universe in the early stages at least. Interested to see where it ends up. AFAIK, it comes down to voice movement in this way up the mountain too, ask 'Jimmy Blue Note'...

    And Barry teaches the same thing from a totally different place. As do the 18th century masters...

    Hope that's enough trailing off and gnomic statements.... I could get used to writing in this way, I can see why you like it... It also invites expansion...

    maybe it's better than tying everything into a neat bow, which is generally a bad idea in music....

    Anyway excuse the ramblings ...
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 10-01-2022 at 11:44 AM.

  9. #1158

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    Maybe the best thing any theory teacher can do is say, 'here's a nice way of playing a scale'...

  10. #1159

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    LOL, why put down this thread? this is the most successful useful thread on this board. About the teachings of a wonderful man who gave everything to music; he not only taught Paul Chambers, but James Jameson. Think about that for a second.

    One thing I never hear talked about is how Pasquale uses half-steps and chromatic to create 4 note runs. It’s quite simple, and logical, based on whether the run is centered around a major or minor scale degree.
    In C: Major: C, F, G; Minor: D, E, A, B

    For 4 note runs beginning or ending with the minor: straight up and down half steps: D-Eb-E-F OR F-E-Eb-D.

    For 4 note runs beginning or ending with the major a slight variation, but consistent rules: Ascending: up a whole step, two half steps (C-D-Eb-E); descending back to the note: down a whole step, two half steps: (E-D-Db-C).

    He clearly got this from BH.

  11. #1160

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    LOL, why put down this thread?
    Who's putting it down?

  12. #1161

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Who's putting it down?
    Post 1146 above: “Man... quit wasting your time. Put some time into playing like Horace Silver, Hank Mobley, Blue Mitchell etc...”

    I don’t see how studying BH is, in any way, a waste of time.



  13. #1162

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    Post 1146 above: “Man... quit wasting your time. Put some time into playing like Horace Silver, Hank Mobley, Blue Mitchell etc...”

    I don’t see how studying BH is, in any way, a waste of time.
    Oh yeah, Reg said that.

    Meh, it seems like a false dichotomy. It was studying Bird that led me back to Barry.

  14. #1163

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    To me, BH is the epitome, the personification of the ORGANIC INTELLECTUAL in the realm of music, a practitioner who grew up playing on the bandstand and was able to synthesize and organize the immense knowledge of his musical experiences in an immense, logical and proud way, always centering on the needs of the music. In that sense, the exact opposite of the ivory-towered academic who postulates and posits about music from above, having never encountered the actual trenches. “Traditional intellectuals” are those who see themselves as autonomous and independent from the ruling social group, believing to stand for truth and reason. Organic intellectuals, on the other hand, emerge from and are tied to a social class within an economic structure”. Simply put, BH was a musician’s musician, who cared so much and so deeply about the music, he travelled the world, like a troubadour, spreading the gospel of Charlie Parker.

  15. #1164

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    Post 1146 above: “Man... quit wasting your time. Put some time into playing like Horace Silver, Hank Mobley, Blue Mitchell etc...”

    I don’t see how studying BH is, in any way, a waste of time.


    Just let ’em talk. It’s just fine if we here and a quite a few others can pull something out of the BH stuff.

  16. #1165

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    […] One thing I never hear talked about is how Pasquale uses half-steps and chromatic to create 4 note runs. It’s quite simple, and logical, based on whether the run is centered around a major or minor scale degree.
    In C: Major: C, F, G; Minor: D, E, A, B

    For 4 note runs beginning or ending with the minor: straight up and down half steps: D-Eb-E-F OR F-E-Eb-D.

    For 4 note runs beginning or ending with the major a slight variation, but consistent rules: Ascending: up a whole step, two half steps (C-D-Eb-E); descending back to the note: down a whole step, two half steps: (E-D-Db-C).

    He clearly got this from BH.
    BH student Shan Verma made a whole YT playlist on building phrases from certain embellishments of thirds.

  17. #1166

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    To me, BH is the epitome, the personification of the ORGANIC INTELLECTUAL in the realm of music, a practitioner who grew up playing on the bandstand and was able to synthesize and organize the immense knowledge of his musical experiences in an immense, logical and proud way, always centering on the needs of the music. In that sense, the exact opposite of the ivory-towered academic who postulates and posits about music from above, having never encountered the actual trenches. “Traditional intellectuals” are those who see themselves as autonomous and independent from the ruling social group, believing to stand for truth and reason. Organic intellectuals, on the other hand, emerge from and are tied to a social class within an economic structure”. Simply put, BH was a musician’s musician, who cared so much and so deeply about the music, he travelled the world, like a troubadour, spreading the gospel of Charlie Parker.
    So true. Call me an anti-intellectual all you want, but the older I get the more I revere the "organic intellectuals" over the other categories. Today's world is awash with "intellectuals". I'm not sure if it was always for the better. I like how Nassim Taleb's articulated this with the concepts of having "skin in the game" and the "IYI (intelligent yet idiot)". Important ideas, if not especially kind or PC.

    Not immediately related, but maybe you've heard the recent Pasquale Grasso interview where he tells the story of how he met Barry and they became instant friends... the travelling jazz veteran and the 9-year-old Italian boy from a Roman suburb, based on their shared passion for Bud Powell. Which Barry encouraged, while he must have known that nobody had ever done Bud Powell on guitar, let alone a 9 year old boy. In a work of fiction, that story would seem far-fetched.

  18. #1167

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  19. #1168

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    i love what he says about Monk here

  20. #1169

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    Yo, that article was comprehensive lots of great stories about the cats. I always tell everyone, I can hang with almost every subculture today, from goths to EDM to Deadheads. But I don’t belong to any of them. Except the group of people who were dressed to the nines and wish they were walking towards the Jazz Capital of the World, Birdland,in 1950, waiting for Bird himself to arrive.

    I’ve heard the “music is movement” quote many times. But his pronouncement that people melodicize harmonies instead of harmonizing melodies, so that’s why nobody remembers what you play” line really cuts to the chase. Like what Fareed Haque says in #4. Fareed used to live in my neighborhood, people used to confuse me for him, all the time (except now he’s gone Gandalf the Grey and he’s a foot shorter, lol).

    Some interesting ways of conceiving music that are percolating in my mind:
    1. Dizzy had the best, most clear and concise definition of jazz, ever. He said, “Jazz is the marriage between European harmony and African rhythms” . He also said, per Mike Longo, “I fill my bar lines with rhythms and throw some notes at them”.
    2. Time-Touch-Tone-Taste-Technique are common aspects to all kinds of music, and it’s the Time-Tone-Touch that makes jazz unique
    3. Bach and Bird: ”Think of Parker as Bach and Coltrane as Beethoven. The basic impulse remains the same: the blues is the basic link between Bird and Trane in the way that the major-minor harmonic system of tension and release is the basic link between Bach and Beethoven.The change was the shape of the container. Bach and Parker built structures based on internal counterpoint, where the melodic impulse was true in every dimension, while Beethoven and Coltrane offered fast-scale passagework over varied textures. The music of Bach and Parker is essentially at one volume and one affect, while Beethoven and Coltrane are able to go from quiet to thunder and back. While it would be foolish to proclaim that Bach and Parker are greater than Beethoven and Coltrane, it is true that Beethoven and Coltrane are easier to imitate (not to mention teach), simply because acquiring the essentially untheatrical craft of Bach and Parker is harder than that of the later, more theatrical masters.” -Ethan Iverson
    4. ”We’ve come to feel that Jazz, now that it’s found its home in the academic world, is an intellectually complex music that relies on musical literacy and theoretical knowledge. And while that may be true of some jazz music, the heart of jazz is a rhythmic conception, a melodic approach, and a cultural experience.” Fareed Haque

  21. #1170

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    Quote Originally Posted by m_d
    […] maybe you've heard the recent Pasquale Grasso interview […]
    Could you please put a link to that interview?

  22. #1171

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    OK... it's not a waste of time..... but if most of you put half the time spent trying to use BH scale chord approach into playing other styles and getting technique together... you might be better at playing. Not saying anyone is not wonderful guitarist etc... or that those old days weren't great.... but they're long gone. The late night after hours thing just doesn't happen much anymore.

    OK... quick name me some BH tunes. Pick 10 tunes you like to play and create an arrangement with 2 or 3 part arrangement of head. Then try a chorus of simple solo.... now voice that out. What do you end up with.

    Try and not get stuck in "stop time" with voicing out lines. If you don't have the notation thing together... just record or dub etc... the point is to do it in as real time as you can. You already have the basic form... the space.

    See what your ears actually like or hear.

    Just for the record... I loved and thought BH was one of the great ambassadors of jazz.... just didn't like his playing that much. The approach tends to become sink hole for most. Barry could and did have his playing together before the family note approach became involved.

    Would love to actually hear anyone on this thread play a few samples of using BH approach playing some tunes.

    Hopefully not some worked out thing.... just play. And yes I get that the approach is better suited for solo of trio type of playing... And again please don't post others or what you can't play.

    Music isn't about saving the world... it's more about making it a better place to exist.

  23. #1172

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    I think a bit more playing on this thread would be nice

    this is very much a work in progress. I’m not sure if it’s BH exactly, it’s just me trying to play the song right and failing haha



    i may post something recent if I can record… tbh I don’t work much on the Barry stuff atm,
    and never went that far with the 8 note scale of chords stuff. I find it hard to play.

  24. #1173

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    The truth is never one thing, the truth is the whole. No one here is probably a Barry clone. Mainly, I wanna learn to play like the four people on my iPad screen saver. They’re not exactly Barry people. Music is, as Plato said it is. You’re right. It makes the world more tolerable, a better place to exist. I’m not a pro, I never went to music school. I just picked up a guitar pretty much right before I joined this site. For me, learning to play guitar was a remedy to suffering a near fatal injury that put me in the hospital for months and changed my life forever. I decided to pick up an instrument that I could play myself, unaccompanied, and it was gonna be either piano or guitar. The portable option seemed to be the wiser choice.

    I’ll tell you what studying Barry allowed me to not fear, and to do, now, anytime. Pick up the guitar, and play spontaneously, fully improvised, off the top of the head, for an hour straight. It may not be great, but I have no fear now. It fills me with joy. Just happy to take my guitar to the mountains, parks, hikes, oceans and sit down and just enjoy the moment and just play. The concept that music is not fixed or static, but always moving, movement personified , that was huge.
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  25. #1174

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    I think I used some BH chordal stuff here, mainly on the bridge.

    I don’t use it all the time, mostly I use it for these kind of solo things. But it certainly got me thinking more about how to move harmony around on the guitar, which was very useful. Also it comes in handy for Wes-type chord solos, though I don’t do those very often (I should probably work more on that).


  26. #1175

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    I just remembered this one, this was largely done using the BH 6/dim stuff.