Official Barry Harris Thread

[Bop Head]

thanks again for answers and explanations. If it is possible can u explain these scale outlines examples , much appriciate.

(All the things you are)
Ab Maj7 | Bdim7 | Bb min7

Scale outline (down) for;
B dim7 : Ab G F Eb Db C B

(Indiana)
Dm | Ab dim | F maj7 D7

Scale outline (up) for;
Ab dim : Ab A B C D E F

It would help to know the number of the measures you are talking about.


EDIT: Isaak Raz shows how Barry teached the scale outline for the first A-section of “All Things You Are” (But I think that’s not what you meant) in the beginning of this video:

Don’t let the “absent-minded professor” vibe fool you, you can learn a lot from Isaak’s videos.

[Christian Miller]

thanks again for answers and explanations. If it is possible can u explain these scale outlines examples , much appriciate.

(All the things you are)
Ab Maj7 | Bdim7 | Bb min7

Scale outline (down) for;
B dim7 : Ab G F Eb Db C B

(Indiana)
Dm | Ab dim | F maj7 D7

Scale outline (up) for;
Ab dim : Ab A B C D E F

These are from DVD I right?

In both examples we have a bIII dim. Of the four dominant scales we can relate to this chord, II7, IV7, bVI7 and VII7 the most diatonic to the overall key are the II7 and IV7 and of the two the II7 seems to work the best; if we run this down to the 1 of the dim chord this gives the most natural sounding choice. (But obv try the other ones)

Another way to say it for the first example Bb7 (II7) down to the third of G7(b9) (VII7b9)…. VII7b9 is a great sub for biii or #iv dim, you can hear bird using it on his recording of Stella for example.

At least that’s my inference. I didn’t hear Barry discuss this first hand in class. No doubt Chris has a video about this.

[Bop Head]

The diminished scales are octatonic, that is they have 8 notes, not 7.

Barry’s scale outline approach serves different purposes:

• You learn the form of the tune by
• using similar phrases that put the chord notes on the beats and put fitting passing notes on the “and-s”.
• Thereby you internalize the sound of notes that fit over the changes. Of course you have the whole chromatic at your disposal but the scale outline is a good basis.

Those phrases are (in the most basic form) either one bar, a scale up to the seventh (count 1–&–2–&–3–&–4), or two bars (scale up to 7th 1–&–2–&–3–&–4 and back to root &–1–&–2–&–3). As I have pointed out in my post above, to make the diminished scale example fit into the one-bar pattern I have left out one note. And Bilginey has tried to go the same way.

[Bilginey]

These are from DVD I right?

In both examples we have a bIII dim. Of the four dominant scales we can relate to this chord, II7, IV7, bVI7 and VII7 the most diatonic to the overall key are the II7 and IV7 and of the two the II7 seems to work the best; if we run this down to the 1 of the dim chord this gives the most natural sounding choice. (But obv try the other ones)

Another way to say it for the first example Bb7 (II7) down to the third of G7(b9) (VII7b9)…. VII7b9 is a great sub for biii or #iv dim, you can hear bird using it on his recording of Stella for example.

At least that’s my inference. I didn’t hear Barry discuss this first hand in class. No doubt Chris has a video about this.

thanks.

[Bop Head]

No doubt Chris has a video about this.

Chris (TILFBH) has a video on the bridge of ATTYA which starts with a good explanation of the family of four dominants and Barry‘s view on the diminished scale and its origin.

Regarding the changes I disagree with Chris. In the original sheet music there is clearly an A–7 with a natural 5th in the first bar of the bridge (“… angel glow …”). And the last bar that connects Emaj with F–7 in the last bar is Ab+ which is often played as C7/#5 (C+ = Ab+ = E+), so i would play a whole tone scale there.



I listened to many versions of ATTYA (I have collected over 120 versions) and none of those has a II–7/b5 in the first bar of the bridge, including the classic bebop version that introduced that intro that is taken from a Rachmaninov motif AFAIK:

Milt Jackson (MJQ originated from Dizzy’s band) lands directly on the natural fifth of A–7 in his first chorus.

EDIT: But there is of course A–7/b5 D7 in the last bar before the bridge, also indicated by the melody.

EDIT 2: A second look at the original sheet music shows me that there is no minor II–V written there, but it is usually played.

[Bop Head]

(Indiana)
Dm | Ab dim | F maj7 D7

Scale outline (up) for;
Ab dim : Ab A B C D E F

I had to listen to Indiana first because I have not worked on that tune (I know that Donna Lee is based on it).

In the second half it modulates from F to the relative minor D–. The Abo serves to modulate back to F, I have yet to think about why that works. The scale outline is like G7 down to the 3rd of E but played backwards. I guess it is maybe played upwards for better voice-leading in the transition to the next bar F down to the 3rd of D played downwards.

[Christian Miller]

I had to listen to Indiana first because I have not worked on that tune (I know that Donna Lee is based on it).

In the second half it modulates from F to the relative minor D–. The Abo serves to modulate back to F, I have yet to think about why that works. The scale outline is like G7 down to the 3rd of E but played backwards. I guess it is maybe played upwards for better voice-leading in the transition to the next bar F down to the 3rd of D played downwards.

The bebop changes (that is the changes Bud and iirc Barry plays) are identical to Donna Lee but in F rather than Ab.

The original changes are somewhat different (listen to Louis, I really like them too. The ODJB recording actually starts on VI7 which is wild.)

If I’m not mistaken the example in question is from the first Howard Rees produced Dvd Set - the last few bars there. So these are the changes in the handout …

The bIII dim is a classic ‘turnaround chord’ and the example from ATTYA also features in the last few bars of the last A. The bIIIdim chord can either go to I or ii/V depending.

A classic Barry thing is to talk about the the way that IIm7/IV6 leads incredibly smoothly to I6. In C

C E G A
C Eb Gb A
C D F A

This can work either way, it’s like a sort of harmonic pivot

A classic Barry rant was how no one plays bIII dim anymore and everyone subs it. It’s interesting how many of the non functioning subs in tunes like Stella, Darn that Dream and Alone Together are actually bop era ii V subs for biii dim. As Ethan Iverson noted, Barry’s harmonic aesthetic was much more grounded in dim chords than many of his contemporaries… it kind of grounds him more in a romantic era type of harmony. of course he adored Chopin

[Christian Miller]

Chris (TILFBH) has a video on the bridge of ATTYA which starts with a good explanation of the family of four dominants and Barry‘s view on the diminished scale and its origin.

Regarding the changes I disagree with Chris. In the original sheet music there is clearly an A–7 with a natural 5th in the first bar of the bridge (“… angel glow …”). And the last bar that connects Emaj with F–7 in the last bar is Ab+ which is often played as C7/#5 (C+ = Ab+ = E+), so i would play a whole tone scale there.



I listened to many versions of ATTYA (I have collected over 120 versions) and none of those has a II–7/b5 in the first bar of the bridge, including the classic bebop version that introduced that intro that is taken from a Rachmaninov motif AFAIK:

Barry hated that intro lol (or at least that’s what he said, sometimes it was hard to tell how serious he was). He liked the verse better, which is a nice verse.

Milt Jackson (MJQ originated from Dizzy’s band) lands directly on the natural fifth of A–7 in his first chorus.

EDIT: But there is of course A–7/b5 D7 in the last bar before the bridge, also indicated by the melody.

EDIT 2: A second look at the original sheet music shows me that there is no minor II–V written there, but it is usually played.

Yeah, the melody is agnostic, I think I’ve always just played a regular ii V there, but I quite like to use a minor ii V into the Emaj because then it has more of a surprise effect. Thanks for sharing the sheet music.
there’s some nice details there.

I tend not to check that out that sort of thing as much as I should. What do you use as a source?

[Bop Head]

(All the things you are)
Ab Maj7 | Bdim7 | Bb min7

[now I know the part you are talking about: “… | know that moment di- | vine, when | all the things ”]

Scale outline (down) for;
B dim7 : Ab G F Eb Db C B

Bb7 down to the 3rd of G

I am missing two things here:

• the strong emphasis of the note g in the melody (on “vine”) which is not part of the Bo7 but one of the potential roots of the Family Of Four Dominants. This is why you should learn the melody first so you are aware of such a strong note and can integrate it into your improvisation. Learning the lyrics really helps (also with the feeling of a tune). The last of Barry’s weekly Tuesday NYC classes was always the singing class where people would learn tunes by singing them.
• I am also missing a little bit the chromatic connection from Ab6 -> lower two notes and get Bo –> lower them one more half step and get Bb–7.

Seems I have to work on the diminished connections more myself

[Bop Head]

What do you use as a source?

Do you mean where I got the sheet music from?

[Bop Head]

I used to run into Shan at the London BH workshops, I certainly remember he was one of the main guys - cool to know he’s YouTubing.

This seems to be very off-topic from Barry at first, but:

One Saturday night a few months ago I was so bored that I watched the Eurovision Song Contest. (That kind of music is really not my taste but I was also interested in the result for political reasons as there was a team from Ukraine participating that won then in the end.) While watching the UK performance I think: “I have seen that keyboard player before.” (after 1:10 in the video; I saw him also sitting at the UK team’s table later while they where waiting for the results)

I do some research the next day and it turns out, yes, it was really Jay Verma, Shan Verma’s nephew, whom knew from the following video, where he teaches a masterclass on Barry Harris sixth diminished scale at a YouTube channel specialized in modern gospel piano (a style I do not like very much either — I DO like bluesy, funky old school gospel — but that video is worth watching).

[Bop Head]

There is a new YT channel illustrating how songs were taught in the tuesday NYC singing classes including the warmup.

In this little documentary starting from about 6:40 there are excerpts from the singing classes of a BH workshop in Rome so you can how those classes were happening in real life.

DISCLAIMER: As I wrote quite a lot in this thread in the last days I have to admit that I never went to a BH class / workshop myself. But since I have discovered his stuff (which was a real eye-opener for me) I try to collect all the bits and pieces I am able to find on the www and meanwhile I think I have quite a good grasp of the method.

[Christian Miller]

Do you mean where I got the sheet music from?

yes

[Christian Miller]

This seems to be very off-topic from Barry at first, but:

One Saturday night a few months ago I was so bored that I watched the Eurovision Song Contest. (That kind of music is really not my taste but I was also interested in the result for political reasons as there was a team from Ukraine participating that won then in the end.) While watching the UK performance I think: “I have seen that keyboard player before.” (after 1:10 in the video; I saw him also sitting at the UK team’s table later while they where waiting for the results)

I do some research the next day and it turns out, yes, it was really Jay Verma, Shan Verma’s nephew, whom knew from the following video, where he teaches a masterclass on Barry Harris sixth diminished scale at a YouTube channel specialized in modern gospel piano (a style I do not like very much either — I DO like bluesy, funky old school gospel — but that video is worth watching).

Haha great.

From maj6-dim to null points

(this ought to confuse Americans lol)

[Christian Miller]

I think it’s great that all documentation of his actual classes exist. The Hague stuff is obviously very important as are the Howard Rees DVDs. It’s good to have someone talk about the vocal classes. Singers and singing were very important to Barry.

if you just focus on the theories you miss the spirit with which they were taught; the songs were part of it ‘I can sing the whole tone scale’ but beyond that the joy that was part of the vocal classes in particular.

a lot of the instrumentalists wouldn’t stick around for the vocal class after the absolute roast of the improvisation class (I note that Barry at age 90 possessed better powers of prolonged concentration than I have) so I only went to a couple, but it was totally different. Harmony class - often exploratory and open ended, Improv class - often focussed and challenging. singing class - very human, warm.

There was a spirit of serious fun in the classes in general; we could easily spend half an hour pratting around changing the words ‘you and me’ in jazz standards (pretty funny if you haven’t done it) or being absolutely roasted repeating lines by ear on Cherokee at around 240 bpm. It was all part of it….

In reality plenty of people went to Barry’s classes and were disappointed and never went back. I think they were used to more conventional jazz education things, and I’m sure that going forward people will teach Barry’s ideas like that. As far as I can tell Barry had zero interest in any of that, I can’t imagine him fitting in as a professor at a music school. (Which is not to say his teaching philosophy lacked method at all.)

You kind of had to hang out for a few of them to start picking things up here and there (at least in my experience.) It took me a while to really get what was going on ….. the more you hung, the more you learned and all the things you could use pretty much right away to become a better jazz player (or singer.)

I can also recommend the book Thinking in Jazz by Paul Berliner which covers the whole NYC jazz scene of the 50s and 60s but has a lot of time devoted to Barry.

[Bop Head]

Thanks for sharing the sheet music. […] What do you use as a source?

I did a internet research I think two or three years ago after reading discussions about real book changes, “real” “correct” changes, Tune-Dex cards etc.

I think someone said that people like Tommy Flanagan or Hank Jones would always go back to the original sheet music so I decided to find some. I found out that some American universities have collections of digitized sheet music. My starting points were those I think:

IMSLP:Universities and Libraries - IMSLP: Free Sheet Music PDF Download

Sheet Music Consortium | Home

But it was quite time consuming to get a collection of almost 200 tunes.

Recently I got the music for some tunes from Ethan Iverson. You can ask him after you have subscribed to his newsletter.

https://ethaniverson.com/original-sh...azz-standards/

There are videos of him playing piano so you do not have to figure everything out by yourself but can pickup things by ear.

Recently I also came across this mostly old-time jazz oriented site:

Sheet Music Singer – Bringing vintage songs back to life

On the right there is a huge alphabetical list of tunes but it is more for people who are more into Buddy Bolden and Bix Beiderbecke than into Bird and Dizz.

[Christian Miller]

I did a internet research I think two or three years ago after reading discussions about real book changes, “real” “correct” changes, Tune-Dex cards etc.

I think someone said that people like Tommy Flanagan or Hank Jones would always go back to the original sheet music so I decided to find some. I found out that some American universities have collections of digitized sheet music. My starting points were those I think:

IMSLP:Universities and Libraries - IMSLP: Free Sheet Music PDF Download

Sheet Music Consortium | Home

But it was quite time consuming to get a collection of almost 200 tunes.

Recently I got the music for some tunes from Ethan Iverson. You can ask him after you have subscribed to his newsletter.

https://ethaniverson.com/original-sh...azz-standards/

There are videos of him playing piano so you do not have to figure everything out by yourself but can pickup things by ear.

Recently I also came across this mostly old-time jazz oriented site:

Sheet Music Singer – Bringing vintage songs back to life

On the right there is a huge alphabetical list of tunes but it is more for people who are more into Buddy Bolden and Bix Beiderbecke than into Bird and Dizz.

Peter Bernstein is well known for this as well; it’s definitely something that a lot of great musicians do, but I’ve not known where to reliably source sheet music, so your links will be invaluable. I’m in your debt!

[Bop Head]

Peter Bernstein is well known for this as well; it’s definitely something that a lot of great musicians do, but I’ve not known where to reliably source sheet music, so your links will be invaluable. I’m in your debt!

You're welcome!

Another source are older songbooks where they recycled the hand-engraved original sheet music (with newer computer-typeset music you do not know for sure if the original piano arrangement is edited).

Compare this: The first one is the originally published vocal / piano arrangement with guitar chords.



The second one is from a Gershwin songbook from 1979.

You can clearly see what is kept, and what is changed or thrown away. But the original staves and the lyrics remain.

EDIT: I just realized they left the “guitar tacet” although there are no guitar chords any more. And they deny George’s brother Ira as lyricist.

[A. Kingstone]

...............

You kind of had to hang out for a few of them to start picking things up here and there (at least in my experience.) It took me a while to really get what was going on ….. the more you hung, the more you learned and all the things you could use pretty much right away to become a better jazz player (or singer.)

This reflects my experience with Barry Harris. As always, well said Miller.

[Bop Head]

[…] Isaak Raz shows how Barry teached the scale outline for the first A-section of “All Things You Are” […] in the beginning of this video:

Guitarist Stephan Kramer is from Munich like myself (but I never met him). At his second Sheila Jordan masterclass in Munich he was already accompanying her and she invited him to the USA where she became his mentor.

Sheila is an interesting connection between Lennie Tristano and Barry Harris. She grew up with Barry and Kenny Burrell and remembers sitting with them on the trashcans behind a club in Detroit as kids waiting for Bird to come out. Later in NYC Lennie Tristano was surprised that she could already sing every Charlie Parker solo by rote, so he made her learn Lester Young solos.

Sheila introduced Stephan to Barry Harris (and encouraged him to study with Billy Bauer as well, Tristano’s favorite guitarist).

One year ago Stephan started a YouTube channel so far mainly dealing with scale studies (he uses the CAGED system).

The following video is a systematic study on the guitar of what Isaac Raz uses in the video above as scale outlines for ATTYA and what in the Barry world comes closest to what Chord Scale Theory calls modes (also in non-modal harmony; “real” modal tunes for me are things like “So What”): starting a major scale from different notes and playing up seven notes (one bar) and maybe back down (two bars).

[Barry Harris AFAIK hated the modal thinking (“I have never used no mode in my whole life!”) and for myself it is also easier to think “C major up from the 3rd” than all the Greek names (although I know them and can use them to communicate).]

Stephan plays the seven note two bar phrases down-up as well which one could use as an alternative for scale outlines.

Stephan’s first videos made me also aware that the scale outlines have the effect of giving you a feeling for one bar and two bar phrases.

I think I have to meet him one day as we’re living in the same city. According to his website he has studied (amongst others) with Sheila, Barry, Billy Bauer, Ted Dunbar, Kenny Barron and Larry Ridley. The list could be worse .

[Bop Head]

Three interesting videos from Open Studio’s Adam Maness about substituting chords with 6th chords. He is a pianist, so some things are quite piano specific, but most things are adaptable to guitar, especially the substitution principles. (Invert drop 2s only, leave out of closed voicings — unless you’re Johnny Smith LOL)

What Adam is not talking about in those videos as far as I see: When you substitute with a sixth chord you can always use the diminished of the according sixth diminished scale as passing chord between inversions of that sixth chord.

And as a spicy bonus a special way of borrowing: borrow three notes from the “other” chord of a sixth diminished scale while harmonizing a melody:

[Jimmy Smith]

Gonna start working on some BH. Enough's enough with the boring chords lol. This guy does good applied demonstrations. The demo is at the end. My teacher, Tony, showed me diatonic chord melody and I think if I add some BH it will be great.

Here he applies it melodically in the demonstration.

[Christian Miller]

Guitarist Stephan Kramer is from Munich like myself (but I never met him). At his second Sheila Jordan masterclass in Munich he was already accompanying her and she invited him to the USA where she became his mentor.

Sheila is an interesting connection between Lennie Tristano and Barry Harris. She grew up with Barry and Kenny Burrell and remembers sitting with them on the trashcans behind a club in Detroit as kids waiting for Bird to come out. Later in NYC Lennie Tristano was surprised that she could already sing every Charlie Parker solo by rote, so he made her learn Lester Young solos.

Sheila introduced Stephan to Barry Harris (and encouraged him to study with Billy Bauer as well, Tristano’s favorite guitarist).

One year ago Stephan started a YouTube channel so far mainly dealing with scale studies (he uses the CAGED system).

The following video is a systematic study on the guitar of what Isaac Raz uses in the video above as scale outlines for ATTYA and what in the Barry world comes closest to what Chord Scale Theory calls modes (also in non-modal harmony; “real” modal tunes for me are things like “So What”): starting a major scale from different notes and playing up seven notes (one bar) and maybe back down (two bars).

[Barry Harris AFAIK hated the modal thinking (“I have never used no mode in my whole life!”) and for myself it is also easier to think “C major up from the 3rd” than all the Greek names (although I know them and can use them to communicate).]
.

Barry hated with good reason the utterly bobbins terminology in use in mainstream jazz edu. He definitely used modal sounds and so on. There was that time he mentioned ‘a Db scale but with the G’ when running ‘all the things’. A few of us exchanged glances but luckily no one said anything.

If I had to characterise the BH line method it’s a set of tools you can use to make scales into music and streamlining changes for maximum freedom; a bit of a missing link as far as I can see. They are all pretty applicable to chord scales. (Otoh chord scales do have daft names.)

I would characterise Barry as a ‘parent scale’ or ‘derivative’ scale guy; Allan Holdsworth is similar in some ways which I find interesting. You have a small number of scales and deal with practicing those in a million ways and applying every which way.

Stephan sounds interesting. I’ll have a look when I feel I need more input to think about! Atm I’m already failing to practice the stuff I already know about haha. (The proliferation of really good Barry Harris channels is the reason I don’t do Barry Harris content much anymore btw.) I’m sure Berliner talks about Sheila somewhere; need to dip back into that book.

[Bop Head]

Barry hated with good reason the utterly bobbins terminology in use in mainstream jazz edu. He definitely used modal sounds and so on. There was that time he mentioned ‘a Db scale but with the G’ when running ‘all the things’. A few of us exchanged glances but luckily no one said anything.

If I had to characterise the BH line method it’s a set of tools you can use to make scales into music and streamlining changes for maximum freedom; a bit of a missing link as far as I can see. They are all pretty applicable to chord scales. (Otoh chord scales do have daft names.)

I would characterise Barry as a ‘parent scale’ or ‘derivative’ scale guy; Allan Holdsworth is similar in some ways which I find interesting. You have a small number of scales and deal with practicing those in a million ways and applying every which way. […]

Thirty years ago I discovered the practically-oriented theoretical (does that make sense) works by German guitarist and author Werner Pöhlert who in his “Analyse der Skalen›theorie‹ auf Basis der Pöhlertschen Grundlagenharmonik” (“Analysis of Scale ›Theory‹ based on Pöhlert’s Basic Harmony” — available only in German”) smashed Chord Scale Theory. It made total sense to me: Why should one use different names for the same seven notes just because you start them on a different note?

[There is another interesting book “Basic Mediantic” (available in English as well) where he shows a way to play (mainly) seventh chord arpeggios as improvisational skeletons over every chord according to certain principles and fill those with the remaining chromatic material, e.g. D–7 – G7 – Cmaj7 would become D–7 – D–7 – E–7, just two shapes a whole step apart. This might be close to Martino’s method, not sure.]

But it took me thirty years to discover Barry who stressed “rhythmically correct” playing, meaning chord notes fall on beats and passing notes fall on “ands”, as can be practiced in his scale outlines for chord changes of tunes (that give you form, chord changes and basic improvisational material) and in his half-step rules (recently it dawned to me that the use of more than one — two or three — added half-steps to a 7th scale outlines a dominant 7/9 chord. The 7th scale a.k.a “mixolydian” is the only major “mode” that got its own name.)

Of course syncopation exists (the word be-bop describes ending a phrase on an “and”) but it is good (not only for the absolute beginner) to remind oneself through practice where the chord tones are in relation to their neighbours.

Regarding “Db scale but with the G”: In his video on ATTYA Isaac Raz uses Db major as first and “Ab from the 4th” as second choice. He talks about his personal preference of Db as short modulation to the key of Db. Maybe it was Barry’s preference as well and that was why he derived the name from Db (“but with the G”) in this case instead from Ab (“from the 4th”) as one would think. Speculations. I vaguely remember Isaac Raz or Shan Verma talking about Ab7 as passing chord preferred by Barry to the Db which would speak for the stressing of the Db tonality from which “Ab from the 4th” would be a deviation. Speculations again.

[Bop Head]

Israeli pianist Alec Katz has posted on his YouTube channel some longer videos from a BH workshop in The Hague (not included in those videos uploaded by the late Frans Elsen):