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  1. #1051

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel
    Oh boy it looks like Chris goes into a ton of depth on the concept of playing all your ABCs on the min6dim scale with melodic lines ...
    Indeed! The content that Chris shares is remarkably helpful. I've watched a number of episodes multiple times and have applied the material to other instruments besides the guitar (piano, clarinet, EWI...). It's a goldmine of instruction and practice ideas.

    There's a "short list" of youtube'rs who've received my financial support over the years. Chris is on that short list.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #1052

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel

    Question#2:
    I feel like someone's going to throw something at me for bringing up this question again but I truly don't think it's been answered adequately to my taste, even though it's possibly, just slightly, the most asked question on this forum: Why does every melodic scale get a cool system of half-step rules with all that freedom for deviation EXCEPT for the most beautiful of all situations, where you're moving through a minor ii-V-i (let's say G-7b5 to C7) and the only thing you're really allowed to do at high speeds on the C7 is read it as Eb7 down to the 3rd of C7? Doesn't that seem like an extreme bottleneck within the BH system, compared to all the other liberty you get at high speeds? Sure maybe you could throw some intervals in there to make it less scalar but you're still having to land on the 3rd of C7 no matter what, and it has to be later than sooner, so you can't reverse the scale for example and ascend with it. I just don't get it, but it makes me think I'm missing something BIG if I don't get that, because bottlenecks like that seem really out of place with this system.

    .


    Eb7 down to the 3rd of C is just a way to get you to play F harmonic minor (or C Phrygian dominant) over Gmin7b5 - C7b9

    Eb7 scale to the 3rd of C = Eb Db C Bb Ab G F E

    C Phrygian dominant = C Db E F G Ab Bb

    .

  4. #1053

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    True.

    Although I realised quite recently that it’s actually a way of getting you to play the harmonic minor only as much as is strictly necessary. Which is to say we don’t have to play it at all.

    I mean, Barry Harris obviously knows what a harmonic minor scale is - why else would one frame it this way?

    A: To maximise the utility of what we have already practiced.

    Barry says that it’s better to stay on the Eb7 as much as possible, and in terms of the amount of time one sinks into mastering the dominant scale in his approach, that makes sense. He said it’s harder to use half step rules etc in harmonic minor, and while those rules exists, it’s more likely that one has the half step rules for Eb7 ingrained than for C7b9

    he then demonstrated that you don’t need to use the E at all.

    So I think the third of the dominant is always kind of optional.

  5. #1054

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    Here’s my understanding of this

  6. #1055

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    Thank's Christianm77! I knew the 3rd and 7th both existed in this paradigm and that they were interchangable, but from my noobishness I hadn't realized:


    1. The 3rd and the 7th ALSO provide seamless transitions to the siblings
    2. You can stay on the "backdoor dominant" scale all you want coming out of the min-ii-b5 chord and you don't even need to hit the 3rd of the V7 if you don't want to, because you're already on the backdoor dominant!
    3. You don't want to get locked into the harmonic minor as a default because you don't want to default in a way that loses out on all those half-step rules and ABCs you've practiced!


    BOOM! Mind blown. Ok, and to give back to this forum in some way, since all I've done is take-take-take and perhaps ask helpful questions , here is a context map I've arrived at this morning, for the "tendencies" of substitution situations, split up by home team (consonance V7s) vs. away team (more dissonance in the V7s). I mean, this might not help anyone, lol, since I'm definitely a bit different in how I learn, but I definitely need a map to get started with anything and I like it if the map can have a structure built in for connecting and balancing wavelike motion of consonance and dissonance (that goes for anything in life, lol):


    What to Play Where?
    (helpful guidelines for me to cultivate a starting point of a tendency; micro-deviations can emerge when I'm wanting more or less consonance/dissonance than the guideline would prescribe)


    Harmonic Movement:

    • Related dim (on 3rd of V7) movements might be the home team for the minor 2-5
    • Tritones minor sounds more away team for the minor 2-5
    • V7dim scale: home team on the major 2-5 because of #4 and no b9 in terms of resolving to the I; so pretty, especially for the most saccharine of turn-arounds! (aka "why doesn't anyone play the flat three diminished anymore?")
    • Important minor: away team on the major 2-5 (more voice-leading to the I than V7dim scale because of the 4, b9, and b7)



    Dominant Scale Single-Line Melodic Playing

    • subbing to the dominant scale a sibling down a 3rd seems most at home in a backdoor V7 situation
    • subbing to a dominant scale up a 3rd seems most at home in an unaltered minor ii-V7 situation
    • subbing to a dominant a tritone away seems most at home in an altered minor ii-V7 situation


    That might all seem a bit pedantic, but trust me, as a left-brained INTP, I need a map of EVERYTHING before I can get myself to start with anything. Once I learn the rules in this way, I can throw away the map and re-join everyone else.


  7. #1056

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I haven’t watched much of Chris’s stuff (I probably should), so what I’m saying is what I remember from Barry’s classes; but when he demonstrated the tritone sub, the junction between say G7 and Db7 is the 3rd or 7th.

    The reason for this is obvious when you think about it; it allows a smooth transition between the two scales and the added note rules can be preserved seamlessly.
    One other thing Barry has talked about in some of the online classes is that notes of G7 chromatically surround notes of Db7 and vice versa. This is a GREAT way of making lines that flow into each other using the tritone. Chris mentions this in some videos as does Isaac.

  8. #1057

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petimar
    One other thing Barry has talked about in some of the online classes is that notes of G7 chromatically surround notes of Db7 and vice versa. This is a GREAT way of making lines that flow into each other using the tritone. Chris mentions this in some videos as does Isaac.
    As in

    G A B C D E F
    Gb Ab Bb Cb Db/B Eb F

    Thats a nice point I hadn’t heard. Every note is in fact different apart from the 3rd and 7th. Could you direct me to the relevant video?

  9. #1058

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel
    Thank's Christianm77! I knew the 3rd and 7th both existed in this paradigm and that they were interchangable, but from my noobishness I hadn't realized:


    1. The 3rd and the 7th ALSO provide seamless transitions to the siblings
    2. You can stay on the "backdoor dominant" scale all you want coming out of the min-ii-b5 chord and you don't even need to hit the 3rd of the V7 if you don't want to, because you're already on the backdoor dominant!
    3. You don't want to get locked into the harmonic minor as a default because you don't want to default in a way that loses out on all those half-step rules and ABCs you've practiced!


    BOOM! Mind blown. Ok, and to give back to this forum in some way, since all I've done is take-take-take and perhaps ask helpful questions , here is a context map I've arrived at this morning, for the "tendencies" of substitution situations, split up by home team (consonance V7s) vs. away team (more dissonance in the V7s). I mean, this might not help anyone, lol, since I'm definitely a bit different in how I learn, but I definitely need a map to get started with anything and I like it if the map can have a structure built in for connecting and balancing wavelike motion of consonance and dissonance (that goes for anything in life, lol):


    What to Play Where?
    (helpful guidelines for me to cultivate a starting point of a tendency; micro-deviations can emerge when I'm wanting more or less consonance/dissonance than the guideline would prescribe)


    Harmonic Movement:

    • Related dim (on 3rd of V7) movements might be the home team for the minor 2-5
    • Tritones minor sounds more away team for the minor 2-5
    • V7dim scale: home team on the major 2-5 because of #4 and no b9 in terms of resolving to the I; so pretty, especially for the most saccharine of turn-arounds! (aka "why doesn't anyone play the flat three diminished anymore?")
    • Important minor: away team on the major 2-5 (more voice-leading to the I than V7dim scale because of the 4, b9, and b7)



    Dominant Scale Single-Line Melodic Playing

    • subbing to the dominant scale a sibling down a 3rd seems most at home in a backdoor V7 situation
    • subbing to a dominant scale up a 3rd seems most at home in an unaltered minor ii-V7 situation
    • subbing to a dominant a tritone away seems most at home in an altered minor ii-V7 situation


    That might all seem a bit pedantic, but trust me, as a left-brained INTP, I need a map of EVERYTHING before I can get myself to start with anything. Once I learn the rules in this way, I can throw away the map and re-join everyone else.

    that’s sounds about it

    It’s good for progression in a step by step way. TBH that’s one reason I’m on and off practicing Barry stuff. I can’t do the Chris thing where you methodically go through everything. My brain doesn’t work like that. Rather I like to revisit concepts every so often.

  10. #1059

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    As in

    G A B C D E F
    Gb Ab Bb Cb Db/B Eb F

    Thats a nice point I hadn’t heard. Every note is in fact different apart from the 3rd and 7th. Could you direct me to the relevant video?
    In F: try descending C7 with one extra note, surround Gb, then continue down Gb7 with one extra note, surround C, down to the third of F. Learned this from Howard Rees years ago.

    C B Bb A G F Gb F E Eb Db B C Bb A

  11. #1060

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Could you direct me to the relevant video?
    This was from one of his Saturday Zoom classes so not available as video now.