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  1. #1001

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    Quote Originally Posted by bleakanddivine
    Aren't you just saying that the target note (downbeat of second bar) is going to be a note of the diminished chord - #1(if you do the suggested raise from 1), 3 ,5 or 7, (G>Ab,B,D,F) but those are still not chord tones of the target chord for the second bar.??
    You connect the dim7 chord to a chord tone of whatever chord it is you are heading to. Semitones and tones are best. You don’t have to use a dim7, but it always sounds good.

    B A G F# F Ab B D | C
    G F# F E D F Ab B | C

    You could also use an enclosure.

    G F# F E D F D D# | E

    Or a tritone sub.

    G F# F E F Ab Cb Db | C

    This would be a lot easier to demonstrate with an actual musical example I expect, but I haven’t got much chance of doing that atm (guitar time very limited for me atm.)
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-24-2020 at 06:40 AM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #1002

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    Another thing you could do, is simply change the rules for each chord. So you use the rules for a scale on G7 and change to the rules for a C, say. According to Barry you should be able to do this through Giant Steps lol.

    It will always work out.

    Here’s an example with the simplest rule. In the first bar we use the rule for G7, in the second, for C

    G F# F E D C B A | G F E D C etc

    Here’s another
    D C B A G F# F E | D C B A G

    Notice in the second example I start on D so I don’t add in an extra note

    In practice these things are a bit vanilla. It’s a lot cooler to bring in the tritone sub. So two beats of G7, two of Db7 and into C. We are taking the first note of each half bar and the scale we are using to work out the half step rules.


    G F# F E Eb Db Cb Bb | A Ab G F E

    And so on

    in practice this is more an exercise than good line building but it’s a good thing to work on, because you want to be able to lay scales through multiple changes. For example in the last example Id probably stick a 3 phrase into finish it off.

    A Ab G F E G B D

    But whatever you do, it’s important to practice stepwise connection from one chord/scale to the next.

    Really the dominant is the main thing to focus on. ‘Let the dominant dominate.’

  4. #1003

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    You connect the dim7 chord to a chord tone of whatever chord it is you are heading to. Semitones and tones are best. You don’t have to use a dim7, but it always sounds good.

    B A G F# F Ab B D | C
    G F# F E D F Ab B | C
    Yes, but aren't you saying that the half-step rules as presented don't really work as they seem to intend in these situations so for the second half of the bar we need to try something different like using a dim/tritone/enclosure/something else to get where we want to. I understand this completely, but I've never seen the rules presented with any sort of caveat like this. Their raison d'etre which is repeated again and again is that they land you on a chord tone at the end, and there are pages and pages of examples available over a static chord where this is true, but in situations of one bar or less of the dominant chord (i.e. most of the time) this is not the case and you have to resort to other methods to achieve the right goal. I've just never seen it raised as an issue and then resolved.

  5. #1004

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    Quote Originally Posted by bleakanddivine
    Yes, but aren't you saying that the half-step rules as presented don't really work as they seem to intend in these situations so for the second half of the bar we need to try something different like using a dim/tritone/enclosure/something else to get where we want to.
    I understand this completely, but I've never seen the rules presented with any sort of caveat like this. Their raison d'etre which is repeated again and again is that they land you on a chord tone at the end, and there are pages and pages of examples available over a static chord where this is true, but in situations of one bar or less of the dominant chord (i.e. most of the time) this is not the case and you have to resort to other methods to achieve the right goal. I've just never seen it raised as an issue and then resolved.
    I'm not sure I'm with you. It sounds like you are trying to use a spoon to open a tin of tuna, but maybe I misunderstand.

  6. #1005

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    Quote Originally Posted by bleakanddivine
    So here's something which I haven't really got my head around. According to generally accepted wisdom, and explicitly in the Roni Ben Hur book "The reasoning behind the rules is to have you play a phrase that will end with a strong note (a chord tone) on the downbeat."

    But, if we consider that more often than not a G7 phrase is going to resolve to a C chord (CM7 as tonic, or possibly C7 in a cycle) or an Am if being used over a Bm7b5 E7, or move to an F7 in a descending pattern like Dm G7 Cm F7. When we look at the landing notes on the first downbeat of the next bar that the rules give us, we find that not many are actually chord tones.
    From this chart we can see that when moving to a C chord, only 6/13 of the possible landing notes are chord tones (in black) - less than half. Going to Am or F7, only 3/13 are chord tones - less than a quarter. So over a I Dm G7 I CM7 / I following the rules only gives you a chord tone on the first beat of CM7 in less than half the possible scenarios. In other words you'd be just as likely to land on a chord tone by playing sequences of notes without the rules.

    Attachment 77830
    I’m no expert on this, but 11 out of the 14 dominant scales in Roni’s book (page 17-18) extend over 2 bars, which might suggest that’s how they are usually intended to be used. You seem to have chopped them all off after only one bar.

    From memory I think the youtube TILF barry chap (Chris) tends to play these over 2 bars. If you want to fit one of these scales into 1 bar you may need to make some kind of adjustment (although I don’t think it’s a big deal to start a phrase on a non-chord tone when you land on the C major, I can think of various ways of doing this).

    In any case I would regard all this stuff as guidelines, rather than strict rules never to be broken. If it doesn’t sound quite right, change it, be creative!

  7. #1006

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    @grahambop yeah it’s resources.

    I’ve been playing around with these materials for a few years now, feel I am able to fluently come up with bop lines on the fly thanks to Barry’s teaching, and it’s never really occurred to me to have a problem with this stuff.

    I wonder if some aren’t looking for a watertight system that isn’t really what Barry is about and in any case isn’t how music is. The added note rules aren’t AFAIK meant to get you from one chord to another. They are meant to help you run lines over a given chord.

    With all of these second hand sources; Roni and Chris etc (or me), with respect, the missing feature is how Barry puts this material together in workshops. Which is to say the emphasis is on learning lines and putting elements together at tempo rather than spending too much time thinking about theory. Scales are one of a grab bag of resources Barry uses to do this. It’s also an absolute roast.

    Part of it is the development of a fast, bandstand ready ear that can pick up shapes and phrases fast and chain them together into longer compositions/improvisations. You don’t get this from this from Chris’s YouTubes or Roni’s book excellent though they are.

    And obviously in Barry’s class you are effectively transcribing one of the greatest jazz musicians of all time in real time as well as getting some insight into how he puts these things together from basic elements. (You can see why students might avoid trying to emulate that, although there might be ways to do some of it without extraordinary hubris lol)

    The Howard Rees DVD is good for this as it basically is a workshop, that’s how Rees designed it. Another good approach is the practice of listening to and repeating phrases from recorded solos in as close to real time as you can.

    if you really want to understand how this scale stuff is used, I would advise checking out more sax solos (specifically sax, not guitar). That’ll make it clear on how these ideas are used in the context of post-Bird jazz language, most definitely including Trane, Wayne, Brecker etc. It certainly helped it make sense for me, and it was in fact transcription that led me back to Barry’s door.
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-26-2020 at 06:17 AM.

  8. #1007

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    Although I’ve got the Roni book, and I’ve watched some of the TILFBH youtubes, I must admit I haven’t really used them much. The reason is that I had already taught myself bebop vocabulary years ago, entirely from the records. So whenever I look at these rules etc. I tend to find they are only telling me something that I already know how to do intuitively.

    For example the half step lines, I just learned my own version of this by putting chromatic steps in a line wherever it sounded ‘right’, because I’d heard Bird, Dexter etc. do something similar. I never thought of it as a set of rules as such.

    So I agree this ‘book’ information is great, but you should also put in just as much work to lift stuff from the records, otherwise you will not be properly equipped. Also listening and copying teaches you the rhythm, feel and attack of the lines as played by the masters, not just the notes they used. That’s so important I think.

  9. #1008

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    From memory I think the youtube TILF barry chap (Chris) tends to play these over 2 bars.
    it took me a while to figure out, but i'm glad TILF does not mean what i feared it to mean...

  10. #1009

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    it took me a while to figure out, but i'm glad TILF does not mean what i feared it to mean...
    well T makes a change from M.

  11. #1010

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    well T makes a change from M.
    not a huge one, according to google

  12. #1011

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    Hmmm, I hope you were using privacy settings

  13. #1012

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    The added note rules aren’t AFAIK meant to get you from one chord to another. They are meant to help you run lines over a given chord.
    Yes, I've had a quick look through my newly-arrived Workshop workbook and it's apparent that these half-step phrases aren't actually meant to be slotted in 'as is' into 'one chord per bar' situations. They are 'applied to scales descending from at least the octave' which means they must extend over at least one bar line. In fact the chart given in the workbook says to keep going and end them on the tonic, so many of them have a duration of 7 1/2 beats. They are presumably meant to be learned just as resources out of which you can select portions to use in the 'Applications' part of the process of creating lines, along with the other material in the basics - thirds, triads, pivots, chromatics etc.

    So I think there may be a phenomenon in which some of the headline BH ideas are often isolated and repeated out of context, and take on a life of their own away from their intended purpose.

  14. #1013

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    Quote Originally Posted by bleakanddivine
    Yes, I've had a quick look through my newly-arrived Workshop workbook and it's apparent that these half-step phrases aren't actually meant to be slotted in 'as is' into 'one chord per bar' situations. They are 'applied to scales descending from at least the octave' which means they must extend over at least one bar line. In fact the chart given in the workbook says to keep going and end them on the tonic, so many of them have a duration of 7 1/2 beats. They are presumably meant to be learned just as resources out of which you can select portions to use in the 'Applications' part of the process of creating lines, along with the other material in the basics - thirds, triads, pivots, chromatics etc.

    So I think there may be a phenomenon in which some of the headline BH ideas are often isolated and repeated out of context, and take on a life of their own away from their intended purpose.
    I think I’ve posted this before, but after the last bit of conversation in this thread I revisited it again this afternoon. Bill presents the half-step rules AND brother and sisters related dominants together with tons of examples:


  15. #1014

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    I would encourage everyone who is interested to watch the more recent TILF videos that Chris has put out. He pretty much always incorporates his ideas into actual lines (which he ALWAYS proclaims sound, "pretty" :lol, at tempo. It is pretty far from cerebral or divorced from actual music making. I have no skin in the game, my interests aren't exclusively bebop; but I think it does Chris a disservice to imply that he simply talks about scales and half-step rules without making music from them.

  16. #1015

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    I would encourage everyone who is interested to watch the more recent TILF videos that Chris has put out. He pretty much always incorporates his ideas into actual lines (which he ALWAYS proclaims sound, "pretty" :lol, at tempo. It is pretty far from cerebral or divorced from actual music making. I have no skin in the game, my interests aren't exclusively bebop; but I think it does Chris a disservice to imply that he simply talks about scales and half-step rules without making music from them.
    Sorry I haven't watched any of Chris's recent stuff (no offence; I haven't wanted to watch jazz instructional vids in my spare time) and I reaaaaalllllly don't want to sound like I am down on his material. I wrote what I wrote quite carefully, to try and allay that. Chris is way more purist and knowledgable about Barry's approach than me, and that's what he's sticking to. His videos have always been top notch. And he does put things into a musical context.

    But there are limitations of the form.... the way Barry teaches is as important as what he teaches IMO.

    The nearest thing to it out there to going to a workshop are the Howard Rees DVD sets, so I'd encourage the investment for anyone you is unsure. (Also, quite probably taking private lessons from students who know his teaching inside out.)
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-26-2020 at 07:21 PM.

  17. #1016

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    I'm not sure if I posted this above, but this is great for further context.


  18. #1017

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    When I started learning Barry stuff, I would practice the half step rules as far as I could play them, often two or more octaves. After becoming aware of them, I went back through my transcriptions plus in my record listening, I noticed that those half steps were there, but almost never more than one octave, often shorter. Made total sense to me as longer scale runs started to get a bit boring sounding.

    I am glad, however, that I did the longer practice because now when I solo, they just kind of come in for how long they are effective and then I'm off to something else.

    I do notice in many of Barry's videos and attending his Zoom workshops, he has them practiced in one octave usually. My guess is he thinks that is an max effective length.

  19. #1018

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    I think I’ve posted this before, but after the last bit of conversation in this thread I revisited it again this afternoon. Bill presents the half-step rules AND brother and sisters related dominants together with tons of examples:
    Thanks, I hadn't seen that video. An excellent presentation which makes
    a great play-along and some take away daily exercises.

    I do believe I've learned more relevant and immediately useful concepts
    from a few months of listening to guys like Chris Parks, Thomas Echols and
    now Bill Graham than I have ever in my decades of formal education.

  20. #1019

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Neverisky
    Thanks, I hadn't seen that video. An excellent presentation which makes
    a great play-along and some take away daily exercises.

    I do believe I've learned more relevant and immediately useful concepts
    from a few months of listening to guys like Chris Parks, Thomas Echols and
    now Bill Graham than I have ever in my decades of formal education.
    Isaac Raz and Connor also have good practical content on their channels.

  21. #1020

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    Anyone who works with the 5432 phrases should eventually discover their inversion, extensions (876b6 phrases) and the mirror images of each.

  22. #1021

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    Anyone who works with the 5432 phrases should eventually discover their inversion, extensions (876b6 phrases) and the mirror images of each.
    Is that something Barry Harris teaches? The inversion, extensions, and mirror images?

  23. #1022

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    Barry's style can be slightly dogmatic, and with the presentation of the methods as 'rules' and the drilling of his students to a parade-ground precision in the videos, it's easy to come away with the impression, re-inforced in many of the online and book-based resources around, that these particular note sequences are set in stone, and the only way mandated to do the job. But it's worth pointing out that he does make a couple of additional points in the first workbook video about the positioning and content of the half-steps, although they are almost just added as afterthoughts:

    1) "Let me explain one thing about these half-steps. The half-steps are just to keep you rhythmically tuned in. So the half-steps that I might use might not be the half-steps that you might hear, or that you might play in a place. One half step on the dominant 7 between the tonic and 7 could be between 6 and 5 or 2 and 1. I came up with putting these half-steps in but it doesn't have to be these particular half-steps. "

    2) " A half-step could be any note that you would want to make it" He then demonstrates using a 3rd or 5th instead of the usual semitone half-step.
    So if you just think of the half step as an element of filler you can use pretty much any combination of notes/rests to plug the gap, as in the examples here.

    Official Barry Harris Thread-domhsalts-jpg

  24. #1023

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    Quote Originally Posted by bleakanddivine
    Barry's style can be slightly dogmatic, and with the presentation of the methods as 'rules' and the drilling of his students to a parade-ground precision in the videos, it's easy to come away with the impression, re-inforced in many of the online and book-based resources around, that these particular note sequences are set in stone, and the only way mandated to do the job. But it's worth pointing out that he does make a couple of additional points in the first workbook video about the positioning and content of the half-steps, although they are almost just added as afterthoughts:

    1) "Let me explain one thing about these half-steps. The half-steps are just to keep you rhythmically tuned in. So the half-steps that I might use might not be the half-steps that you might hear, or that you might play in a place. One half step on the dominant 7 between the tonic and 7 could be between 6 and 5 or 2 and 1. I came up with putting these half-steps in but it doesn't have to be these particular half-steps. "

    2) " A half-step could be any note that you would want to make it" He then demonstrates using a 3rd or 5th instead of the usual semitone half-step.
    Barry says that the rules are more important than the notes. Howard Rees once taught an entire 10-hour intensive course (2 hours a day over 5 days) on the many and varied ways of applying these rules. The workbook fundamentals are only the beginning.

  25. #1024

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    Quote Originally Posted by bleakanddivine
    Barry's style can be slightly dogmatic
    No? Really? :-)

    and with the presentation of the methods as 'rules' and the drilling of his students to a parade-ground precision in the videos, it's easy to come away with the impression, re-inforced in many of the online and book-based resources around, that these particular note sequences are set in stone, and the only way mandated to do the job.
    I think that's well said. The drill thing arises just from the best way to teach things to a group I think. It's also good preparation for hearing things on the bandstand.

    Barry is a much more careful teacher than people give him credit for. I think he's trying to teach the way he learned.

    Again the invaluable resource for understanding the 'why' and 'how' of Barry as well as the 'what' this is 'Thinking in Jazz' Paul Berliner. More people should read this book (it's a big'un) but I think there's a big chance people take away the wrong stuff from Barry - that is view his teaching as some technical system or music theory concept - as fewer of his students have direct contact with the man himself. The problem being technical systems are easier to communicate in print and kind of end up perpetuating themselves (which is I think why Rees did DVDs, to keep Barry in the teaching.)

    The knowledge itself is only one part of it; the way knowledge is passed on is actually more important.

    Those who have been doing those workshops for years and years know what he is about; although some can be far more purist than Barry even haha.

    But it's worth pointing out that he does make a couple of additional points in the first workbook video about the positioning and content of the half-steps, although they are almost just added as afterthoughts:

    1) "Let me explain one thing about these half-steps. The half-steps are just to keep you rhythmically tuned in. So the half-steps that I might use might not be the half-steps that you might hear, or that you might play in a place. One half step on the dominant 7 between the tonic and 7 could be between 6 and 5 or 2 and 1. I came up with putting these half-steps in but it doesn't have to be these particular half-steps. "

    2) " A half-step could be any note that you would want to make it" He then demonstrates using a 3rd or 5th instead of the usual semitone half-step.
    So if you just think of the half step as an element of filler you can use pretty much any combination of notes/rests to plug the gap, as in the examples here.

    Official Barry Harris Thread-domhsalts-jpg
    Open strings and ghost notes work too. "The rule is more important than the note."

  26. #1025

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    Studying the rules allow us to hear these items Barry calls “The Basics”. After you get these in your ear, you hear them all the time on Bebop recordings. This helped me a lot in understanding how to use them so that I could get at least some bebop language into my improvising.

  27. #1026

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    Thomas Echols has just released a Mac/Win app implementing some of his ideas about applying Tymockzko's A Geometry of Music to Barry Harris 6-diminished harmony on the guitar.

    Check out this intro video:


  28. #1027

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    Here's a recent guitar-based exposition. Thorough, but quite fast-paced.



  29. #1028

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    I have been getting more and more into Barry's teaching recently, having come from the Berklee approach. The Berklee stuff has been beneficial in terms of understanding harmony and chord scales etc. and after getting used to Barry's terminology it was just a matter of adjusting what I already knew which did take some time. But I was instantly sounding more musical which was very exciting.

    In terms having more contemporary sounding lines over standards with Barry's method as the foundation, what are some ideas that people use to achieve that? Would it be fair to say that the rhythm is still present but you are looking to change the notes? Implying different substitutions, being more intervallic but still be being mindful of what lands of the strong beats?

  30. #1029

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    Hello everyone,

    I've recently been reading through this thread and also the study group one - trying to absorb all the wisdom of the hive.

    I've been watching TILF Barry Harris videos on YouTube and working a little bit on the basics from the video workshop pdf. I've scanned ahead a little bit to see how it can be applied to creating lines.

    Having done the scale outlines on RC and the blues I wanted to try a kind of etude to build some licks into my muscle memory. For the last 15 years, on and off, I have been attempting to play jazz and jazz blues without a huge amount of success. The only things that have really stuck with me and got into my improvising vocabulary are a handful of 2 5 1 licks I have gleaned from various sources.

    I am a bit on the fence about becoming a full-on BH disciple because I can see it is a lot of work. I sometimes wonder if it's too late (I'm 40) or if I'm meant to stick to pentatonics.

    Anyway that's a bit of background - I have a few questions. One is about the form of jazz blues, the others about my attempt at an etude.

    I've noticed that in the workshop pdf and in TILFBH videos the form of blues goes to a IM7 in bar 7 and does a turnaround to the iim7. I'm assuming this is the traditional bebop form.

    The form that I usually play, and have been shown by teachers in the past, is similar to Tenor Madness. Tonic stays dominant on bar 7 and either goes straight to VI7 or approaches it from IIIm7b5. I'm not sure if this is a more modern sound or more rooted in traditional blues but I quite likes these changes and I've tried building an etude on them using the idea on page 41 of the workshop pdf. This is a line down from b7 and back up to the 4th followed by the "4" phrase. I had to make some changes to accommodate having only one bar of some chords so have just used the descent. I changed bar 7 scale to dominant of course. I found that if the bar 6 goes to Edim7 the 2 bar pattern on Eb dominant kind of works. I messed around trying to include the E natural but didn't find anything that worked without changing the phrase significantly so just left it. I also had to think about how to navigate the bar 7 to 8 scale change. At first I tried playing the exact same pattern that happens in bar 7 on G dominant scale but the e natural sounded odd so I just flattened it. I realise that bar 12 normally stays on the I7 and I will also practice that as a variation but I put the V7 in this one.

    Hope that all makes sense and thanks if you managed to read it all.

    My questions are:

    1) Do you play the Tenor Madness form and modify in a similar way?
    2) Is my etude correct or does it depart from BH principles?
    3) Do you think this kind of thing is a valuable use of time to get the sounds and phrases into your playing?

    Many thanks,
    Ben
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by bennybeebop; 03-09-2021 at 11:18 AM.

  31. #1030

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    Quote Originally Posted by bennybeebop
    ... I sometimes wonder if it's too late (I'm [insert_age_here])...

    A bit of a digression from the topic, but the answer to your implied question is no. Regardless of the value you insert between the brackets.

  32. #1031

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Neverisky
    A bit of a digression from the topic, but the answer to your implied question is no. Regardless of the value you insert between the brackets.
    Agreed. I’m mid-40s and found practicing Barry’s half-step rules and “playing with your brothers and sisters” to be the closest thing to a shortcut there is to playing lines that sound like bebop. It’s always a work in progress of course, but this has opened up my ears quite a bit.

  33. #1032

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    Quote Originally Posted by bennybeebop
    Hello everyone,

    I've recently been reading through this thread and also the study group one - trying to absorb all the wisdom of the hive.

    I've been watching TILF Barry Harris videos on YouTube and working a little bit on the basics from the video workshop pdf. I've scanned ahead a little bit to see how it can be applied to creating lines.

    Having done the scale outlines on RC and the blues I wanted to try a kind of etude to build some licks into my muscle memory. For the last 15 years, on and off, I have been attempting to play jazz and jazz blues without a huge amount of success. The only things that have really stuck with me and got into my improvising vocabulary are a handful of 2 5 1 licks I have gleaned from various sources.

    I am a bit on the fence about becoming a full-on BH disciple because I can see it is a lot of work. I sometimes wonder if it's too late (I'm 40) or if I'm meant to stick to pentatonics.

    Anyway that's a bit of background - I have a few questions. One is about the form of jazz blues, the others about my attempt at an etude.

    I've noticed that in the workshop pdf and in TILFBH videos the form of blues goes to a IM7 in bar 7 and does a turnaround to the iim7. I'm assuming this is the traditional bebop form.

    The form that I usually play, and have been shown by teachers in the past, is similar to Tenor Madness. Tonic stays dominant on bar 7 and either goes straight to VI7 or approaches it from IIIm7b5. I'm not sure if this is a more modern sound or more rooted in traditional blues but I quite likes these changes and I've tried building an etude on them using the idea on page 41 of the workshop pdf. This is a line down from b7 and back up to the 4th followed by the "4" phrase. I had to make some changes to accommodate having only one bar of some chords so have just used the descent. I changed bar 7 scale to dominant of course. I found that if the bar 6 goes to Edim7 the 2 bar pattern on Eb dominant kind of works. I messed around trying to include the E natural but didn't find anything that worked without changing the phrase significantly so just left it. I also had to think about how to navigate the bar 7 to 8 scale change. At first I tried playing the exact same pattern that happens in bar 7 on G dominant scale but the e natural sounded odd so I just flattened it. I realise that bar 12 normally stays on the I7 and I will also practice that as a variation but I put the V7 in this one.

    Hope that all makes sense and thanks if you managed to read it all.

    My questions are:

    1) Do you play the Tenor Madness form and modify in a similar way?
    2) Is my etude correct or does it depart from BH principles?
    3) Do you think this kind of thing is a valuable use of time to get the sounds and phrases into your playing?

    Many thanks,
    Ben
    1) I like to play the blues with the changes that fit the melody... my feeling for TM is that I still prefer a major I chord. The melody gives Bb6, not Bb7. But it all sounds good cos it’s, well, the blues. Stylistically it’s more bop to play Major I think.

    The b7 on I sound I always associate with the post bop era. Bird played I6 or Imaj7 most times. BH is a Bird obsessive obviously...

    2) I might get jumped on by the Faithful, but I always saw BH’s stuff as less of a rigorous thing and more a set of resources. BH recorded on some of those iconic Blue Note dates and I would be surprised if he didn’t play that other version on some dates. I’ll have to have a listen.

    3) I can’t see a drawback myself

  34. #1033

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    Thanks Michael, wzpgsr and Christian for your replies.

    The age thing was kind of a joke although there was an element of truth in it. Sometimes my lack of progress is a source of frustration but even if it were too late to achieve my goals I'd still work on it. I think there's a lot of value that comes from the process of trying to improve.

    I have checked out the half step rules for dominants and will probably try creating etude type practice routines that utilise them. The brothers and sisters thing I will have to look into but I have a vague idea of what they are.

    Regarding blues form, thanks for the insight, it makes sense.

    I feel motivated to continue working on the ideas for now and that is due in large part to members of this forum being so generous with sharing their knowledge (definitely a Barry Harris characteristic from what I understand).

    Kind regards,
    Ben

  35. #1034

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    Ben: Perhaps for your etudes, run down the Dominant Half Step Rules and resolve via the Related Diminished.

    FOR INSTANCE

    C7 - down from 3rd (insert Half Step Rule here) plus off the 2nd - 4th - 5th - etc. (with both Half Step Rules)

    Land on the 3rd (or 5th - 7th - b9th) - Can you name the 3rd 5th 7th b9th of C7?

    Run Up (or down - or pivot) on RELATED DIMINISHED - Built On The Third Of The Dominant.

    Key - F
    Dominant - C7
    3rd of Dominant - Eo (E Diminished Seventh)

    Eo = E G Bb D


    Curiosity is where it's at.

    Best

    Alan

  36. #1035

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    Quote Originally Posted by bennybeebop
    I have checked out the half step rules for dominants and will probably try creating etude type practice routines that utilise them. The brothers and sisters thing I will have to look into but I have a vague idea of what they are.
    This video is what hammered both concepts home for me. Definitely worth your time.


  37. #1036

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    Great thanks Alan, I will try to incorporate those ideas into some of my practice. My theory knowledge is reasonably good so I do know those intervals yes. However, I don't consider myself an expert and am always trying to learn. I think the thing that has always eluded me is putting my understanding into practice. I've had brief attempt at putting diminished arpeggios in as resolutions to the next chord line but it's going to take a bit of work to get it all to flow and make sense to my ear.

    wzpgsr, that's a very helpful video. The brothers and sisters create some cool sounds.

    Kind regards,
    Ben

  38. #1037

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    Here's my attempt to incorporate descending lines with half step rules, diminished chords, one brother/sister dominant and the 5432 licks. In this case I did 534 I think. I also used dominant 7 arpeggios and at one point a 1235 to keep the line flowing.

    I'm not totally happy with it but at faster tempos I think it sounds pretty good although I'm struggling to play it with a 170 backing track at the moment.

    EDIT: I just realised that in bar 10 I used A7 which isn't a brother, I should have used Ab7, B7 or D7. However, I quite like the sound.


    Ben
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by bennybeebop; 03-12-2021 at 04:04 AM. Reason: Mistake

  39. #1038

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    If it is any help Benny I am 64 and started studying Barry’s method 2 years go. It has helped my playing tremendously.

  40. #1039

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    Quote Originally Posted by bennybeebop
    Here's my attempt to incorporate descending lines with half step rules, diminished chords, one brother/sister dominant and the 5432 licks. In this case I did 534 I think. I also used dominant 7 arpeggios and at one point a 1235 to keep the line flowing.

    I'm not totally happy with it but at faster tempos I think it sounds pretty good although I'm struggling to play it with a 170 backing track at the moment.

    EDIT: I just realised that in bar 10 I used A7 which isn't a brother, I should have used Ab7, B7 or D7. However, I quite like the sound.


    Ben
    Looking good!

    in terms of advice on technique and fingering I’d have to look at the way you play.

  41. #1040

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    Hi,

    Thanks Pete, glad it's working well for you. The system is certainly opening my eyes.

    Thanks Christian, It's the 534 phrase that's tripping me up - it'll be fine with practice. I might upload a video at some point.

    I think I'm gonna stick with trying to apply the ideas to the blues for a while and maybe get some double time lines down.

    I've started delving into the scale of chords, C6o and Cm6o scales.

    Is there anywhere I can find scale outlines for Autumn Leaves, Girl From Ipanema and Blue Bossa?

    Thanks,
    Ben

  42. #1041

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    Here's a video of me playing the above etude with a backing track and then doing some of my standard jazz blues improv-



    The backing track is by Guitare Improvisation - YouTube

    Ben

  43. #1042

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    Sounding good baby!

    I'd maybe focus in minimising the 'bounce' in your picking hand if you are finding faster tempos a bit challenging.

  44. #1043

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    Thanks Christian,

    Yes I agree, I don't normally move it that much but I found myself changing my technique in order to get a clean take. I just managed to do it effortlessly at 200bpm on my other tele that has lighter strings on. I'm not used to playing 12s on that one although I like the sound - I'll give it another go later.

    Regards,
    Ben

  45. #1044

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    Hi all. I just read through all 21 pages of this thread because I have two questions and I wanted to make sure they weren't already asked. I got to see a post of mine from Aug 2019 when I was asking how the heck to wrap my fingers around the drop 2 voicings on the guitar. Thanks for the help there by the way! It's a year and a half later and after 20 min of practice every day since then, I'm able to play the drop-2 voicings up and down the neck on the lower 4 strings, the mid 4 strings and the upper 4 strings. So if you ever wondered how long it would take a guitar noob to do that: 1.5 years =)

    Question#1:
    I was overjoyed this morning when playing Autumn Leaves in the key of B, as my ears heard the #5 note emerge in bar 6 and then the b5 note emerge in bar 7:

    Bars 5 - 8 (in the key of B):
    | C#-6dim (over a A#-7b5) | E-6dim (over D#7b13) | G#-6dim (over G#-6) for two bars |

    The BH system has it so that the b5 and #5 are well disguised in a minor ii-V-i cadence such as this, but led into so beautifully, that when they emerge they sound like the best thing in the world to me. Especially when using the 3 note drop-2 voicings that Isaac Raz likes to use.

    But when I went into analyzing how to get that b5/#5 sound from the minor 6th dim chord when converting it to a single-line melodic scale (so that I can play that sound at 200bpm in improv situations) I couldn't figure out what the heck to do. Does anyone know what the heck scale to play that adheres to the half-step rules and can be played at blazing speeds that holds the b5 and #5 so beautifully? I'm talking b5 #5 in the key of B here, so on a G#-6dim scale, it's still just the F note and the G note. Thanks!

    Question#2:
    I feel like someone's going to throw something at me for bringing up this question again but I truly don't think it's been answered adequately to my taste, even though it's possibly, just slightly, the most asked question on this forum: Why does every melodic scale get a cool system of half-step rules with all that freedom for deviation EXCEPT for the most beautiful of all situations, where you're moving through a minor ii-V-i (let's say G-7b5 to C7) and the only thing you're really allowed to do at high speeds on the C7 is read it as Eb7 down to the 3rd of C7? Doesn't that seem like an extreme bottleneck within the BH system, compared to all the other liberty you get at high speeds? Sure maybe you could throw some intervals in there to make it less scalar but you're still having to land on the 3rd of C7 no matter what, and it has to be later than sooner, so you can't reverse the scale for example and ascend with it. I just don't get it, but it makes me think I'm missing something BIG if I don't get that, because bottlenecks like that seem really out of place with this system.

    [EDIT: After doing further research, Christianm shows some variety is definitely possible by moving the major 3rd earlier or later and using pivots in this post of his: Things I learned from Barry Harris Study Group. I guess I'm just surprised that on vii-7b5 to V7 cadence, if I'm not going for the altered sound, I pretty much only get get to continue the dominant scale from the vii-7b5 until I hit the major 3rd of the dominant chord. It just seems so confined and prescriptive to hit that major 3rd every time. At least compared to the rest of the system. So I feel like I'm really missing something.]


    Thanks for your time. For what has become my favorite passion in life, you all have been saints in guiding the light for me.
    Last edited by Squirrel; 04-17-2021 at 03:08 AM.

  46. #1045

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    Re. question 2, Chris Parks shows various approaches:


  47. #1046

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    I’m confused by your question #2. I assume you know that “running the scales” is how you practice to internalize the changes, not what you play to make music. In any case, here is another video by Chris Parks on the freedom and some musical ideas over the ii-V-I:





    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  48. #1047

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    "...But when I went into analyzing how to get that b5/#5 sound from the minor 6th dim chord when converting it to a single-line melodic scale (so that I can play that sound at 200bpm in improv situations) I couldn't figure out what the heck to do. Does anyone know what the heck scale to play that adheres to the half-step rules and can be played at blazing speeds that holds the b5 and #5 so beautifully? I'm talking b5 #5 in the key of B here, so on a G#-6dim scale, it's still just the F note and the G note. Thanks!"

    @Squirrel Congratulations on your outstanding progress!

    I suspect the issue in Q#1 above, as hinted at in other replies, is that you're conflating the scales, half-step "rules" and creative line construction. They're separate but related topics as I understand BH's approach to harmony and improv.

    First of all, let's take the "blazing speed" component out of this. The pace of playing is irrelevant to the larger questions you raise about harmonic/line construction theory...

    The half-steps are inserted to promote the ability landing on a chord tone (guide tone) on downbeats playing evenly in timing (e.g., all 8th notes). The "rules" are a set of ideas (not the only ones available) to preserve an octatonic scalar construct for use in an even-beat time signature (e.g., 4/4).

    That's it in a nutshell. Lots of ways to add (or refrain from adding) chromaticism into an otherwise 7-tone scale to accomplish this. And of course, if you're jumping around the scale tones and/or playing various other duration notes (an occasional dotted-8th or quarter-note triplets), then there are a whole world of other ways to land on chord tones on downbeats - assuming that's as essential to your improv style as you care to make it.

    As for the Min6thDim scale, I'm not clear as to what problem you're facing? The chords in this scale series are what they are ;-) If you're playing a tune with a passage that doesn't use one of these scales - especially if the melody calls for a sustained note that's not in your selected scale, then you've likely reached for the wrong scale for that passage.

    The Min6Dim scale is not a very good choice for playing, say, a major 7th tonality. Perhaps your struggle with making the Min6Dim scale work (at any speed) when working with a certain passage is that it's just not the right choice.

    I'd suggest analyzing the passage again - especially to identify those tones the melody line is emphasizing - and ask yourself whether you're reaching for the right chord/scale at that juncture. Songs can modulate in key. They can also modulation in mode/tonality.

    Best wishes!

  49. #1048

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    Thanks everyone! I think you've cleared a lot up for me and I can understand what to do now with question #1 (how do I get the b5 and #5 with half step rules?) and I can also articulate question #2 much better now (re: target notes prescribed on the V7b9 chord when running a a scale into a scale).

    Those videos from Chris are truly classics and re-watching them really brought me back to the first time I saw them. I love how he is so passionate about the freedom from target notes, and I feel the same way! I think that's why I took this opportunity to express my realization that I feel like I'm missing something really big here, because it almost seems like BH is proposing target note on the minor ii-V. After watching Chris's TILFBH videos again it seems he is also saying that there is a freedom to not have to think about target notes. He shows chord arpeggios from the 2 or the 4 or any degree of the scale really on his major ii-Vs. Yet when he talks about the minor ii-V he talks only about navigating to the 3rd or 7th (target notes?) and he only shows examples of navigating to the 3rd or 7th. I think I must just be not getting something very obvious and it's probably because of how I play. When I use the half-step rules on dominant scales I'm often going to the 5 of the scale or something non-important like that and I'm doing it with all sorts of major or minor chords built off of the less important scale degrees, so I'm just not often hitting the 3rd or 7th, or at least not purposefully. But then suddenly when I'm on a minor ii-V I can't think that freely and I'm suddenly needing to remember what the 3rd (or 7th for the tritone) is and getting there through hell or high water. But you know what... I think I'm just psyching myself out because I'm seeing a pattern in all the examples and I'm worrying about the pattern that isn't being represented: what about the arpeggios coming down the V7b9 in a minor scale that don't target the 3rd or 7th, and I think they're probably perfectly ok! Haha. I think it's just that nobody has outright said that, and so it seems overshadowed by every example of playing a scale into another scale as needing to target a 3rd or 7th which just isn't true, or at least isn't the whole of it. Did I get it? Or am I still off-base?

    Ok for Question #1, concerning how to fit a b5 and #5 with half-step rules, I've come to this conclusion, especially with the help of OneWatt (thank you!!!): just because every example of half-step rules focuses on dominant scales doesn't mean they only apply to dominant scales. There's really nothing that prevents me from running half-step rules on the 8 notes that emerge from a min6 chord and if that's the sound I like, why not practice the heck out of it and get it under my fingers? If I want to run half-step rules on min6 scales over the V7b9 chord instead of running a dominant into the 3rd of another dominant (up the ii-7b5 scale to the 7th and down to the 3rd of the V7b9) then there's nothing stopping me. And like Chris says in his videos, it's extremely rare BH ever says to not do something. We could all probably list on the fingers of one hand what BH says not to do, LOL.

    1. Don't play the snare on the 4 of every phrase if you're a drummer, lol (when he was trying to describe the "AND")
    2. Don't swing the couplets

  50. #1049

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    Oh boy it looks like Chris goes into a ton of depth on the concept of playing all your ABCs on the min6dim scale with melodic lines here:


  51. #1050

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    I haven’t watched much of Chris’s stuff (I probably should), so what I’m saying is what I remember from Barry’s classes; but when he demonstrated the tritone sub, the junction between say G7 and Db7 is the 3rd or 7th.

    The reason for this is obvious when you think about it; it allows a smooth transition between the two scales and the added note rules can be preserved seamlessly.