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  1. #1001

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    Quote Originally Posted by bleakanddivine
    Aren't you just saying that the target note (downbeat of second bar) is going to be a note of the diminished chord - #1(if you do the suggested raise from 1), 3 ,5 or 7, (G>Ab,B,D,F) but those are still not chord tones of the target chord for the second bar.??
    You connect the dim7 chord to a chord tone of whatever chord it is you are heading to. Semitones and tones are best. You don’t have to use a dim7, but it always sounds good.

    B A G F# F Ab B D | C
    G F# F E D F Ab B | C

    You could also use an enclosure.

    G F# F E D F D D# | E

    Or a tritone sub.

    G F# F E F Ab Cb Db | C

    This would be a lot easier to demonstrate with an actual musical example I expect, but I haven’t got much chance of doing that atm (guitar time very limited for me atm.)
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-24-2020 at 06:40 AM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #1002

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    Another thing you could do, is simply change the rules for each chord. So you use the rules for a scale on G7 and change to the rules for a C, say. According to Barry you should be able to do this through Giant Steps lol.

    It will always work out.

    Here’s an example with the simplest rule. In the first bar we use the rule for G7, in the second, for C

    G F# F E D C B A | G F E D C etc

    Here’s another
    D C B A G F# F E | D C B A G

    Notice in the second example I start on D so I don’t add in an extra note

    In practice these things are a bit vanilla. It’s a lot cooler to bring in the tritone sub. So two beats of G7, two of Db7 and into C. We are taking the first note of each half bar and the scale we are using to work out the half step rules.


    G F# F E Eb Db Cb Bb | A Ab G F E

    And so on

    in practice this is more an exercise than good line building but it’s a good thing to work on, because you want to be able to lay scales through multiple changes. For example in the last example Id probably stick a 3 phrase into finish it off.

    A Ab G F E G B D

    But whatever you do, it’s important to practice stepwise connection from one chord/scale to the next.

    Really the dominant is the main thing to focus on. ‘Let the dominant dominate.’

  4. #1003

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    You connect the dim7 chord to a chord tone of whatever chord it is you are heading to. Semitones and tones are best. You don’t have to use a dim7, but it always sounds good.

    B A G F# F Ab B D | C
    G F# F E D F Ab B | C
    Yes, but aren't you saying that the half-step rules as presented don't really work as they seem to intend in these situations so for the second half of the bar we need to try something different like using a dim/tritone/enclosure/something else to get where we want to. I understand this completely, but I've never seen the rules presented with any sort of caveat like this. Their raison d'etre which is repeated again and again is that they land you on a chord tone at the end, and there are pages and pages of examples available over a static chord where this is true, but in situations of one bar or less of the dominant chord (i.e. most of the time) this is not the case and you have to resort to other methods to achieve the right goal. I've just never seen it raised as an issue and then resolved.

  5. #1004

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    Quote Originally Posted by bleakanddivine
    Yes, but aren't you saying that the half-step rules as presented don't really work as they seem to intend in these situations so for the second half of the bar we need to try something different like using a dim/tritone/enclosure/something else to get where we want to.
    I understand this completely, but I've never seen the rules presented with any sort of caveat like this. Their raison d'etre which is repeated again and again is that they land you on a chord tone at the end, and there are pages and pages of examples available over a static chord where this is true, but in situations of one bar or less of the dominant chord (i.e. most of the time) this is not the case and you have to resort to other methods to achieve the right goal. I've just never seen it raised as an issue and then resolved.
    I'm not sure I'm with you. It sounds like you are trying to use a spoon to open a tin of tuna, but maybe I misunderstand.

  6. #1005

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    Quote Originally Posted by bleakanddivine
    So here's something which I haven't really got my head around. According to generally accepted wisdom, and explicitly in the Roni Ben Hur book "The reasoning behind the rules is to have you play a phrase that will end with a strong note (a chord tone) on the downbeat."

    But, if we consider that more often than not a G7 phrase is going to resolve to a C chord (CM7 as tonic, or possibly C7 in a cycle) or an Am if being used over a Bm7b5 E7, or move to an F7 in a descending pattern like Dm G7 Cm F7. When we look at the landing notes on the first downbeat of the next bar that the rules give us, we find that not many are actually chord tones.
    From this chart we can see that when moving to a C chord, only 6/13 of the possible landing notes are chord tones (in black) - less than half. Going to Am or F7, only 3/13 are chord tones - less than a quarter. So over a I Dm G7 I CM7 / I following the rules only gives you a chord tone on the first beat of CM7 in less than half the possible scenarios. In other words you'd be just as likely to land on a chord tone by playing sequences of notes without the rules.

    Attachment 77830
    I’m no expert on this, but 11 out of the 14 dominant scales in Roni’s book (page 17-18) extend over 2 bars, which might suggest that’s how they are usually intended to be used. You seem to have chopped them all off after only one bar.

    From memory I think the youtube TILF barry chap (Chris) tends to play these over 2 bars. If you want to fit one of these scales into 1 bar you may need to make some kind of adjustment (although I don’t think it’s a big deal to start a phrase on a non-chord tone when you land on the C major, I can think of various ways of doing this).

    In any case I would regard all this stuff as guidelines, rather than strict rules never to be broken. If it doesn’t sound quite right, change it, be creative!

  7. #1006

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    @grahambop yeah it’s resources.

    I’ve been playing around with these materials for a few years now, feel I am able to fluently come up with bop lines on the fly thanks to Barry’s teaching, and it’s never really occurred to me to have a problem with this stuff.

    I wonder if some aren’t looking for a watertight system that isn’t really what Barry is about and in any case isn’t how music is. The added note rules aren’t AFAIK meant to get you from one chord to another. They are meant to help you run lines over a given chord.

    With all of these second hand sources; Roni and Chris etc (or me), with respect, the missing feature is how Barry puts this material together in workshops. Which is to say the emphasis is on learning lines and putting elements together at tempo rather than spending too much time thinking about theory. Scales are one of a grab bag of resources Barry uses to do this. It’s also an absolute roast.

    Part of it is the development of a fast, bandstand ready ear that can pick up shapes and phrases fast and chain them together into longer compositions/improvisations. You don’t get this from this from Chris’s YouTubes or Roni’s book excellent though they are.

    And obviously in Barry’s class you are effectively transcribing one of the greatest jazz musicians of all time in real time as well as getting some insight into how he puts these things together from basic elements. (You can see why students might avoid trying to emulate that, although there might be ways to do some of it without extraordinary hubris lol)

    The Howard Rees DVD is good for this as it basically is a workshop, that’s how Rees designed it. Another good approach is the practice of listening to and repeating phrases from recorded solos in as close to real time as you can.

    if you really want to understand how this scale stuff is used, I would advise checking out more sax solos (specifically sax, not guitar). That’ll make it clear on how these ideas are used in the context of post-Bird jazz language, most definitely including Trane, Wayne, Brecker etc. It certainly helped it make sense for me, and it was in fact transcription that led me back to Barry’s door.
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-26-2020 at 06:17 AM.

  8. #1007

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    Although I’ve got the Roni book, and I’ve watched some of the TILFBH youtubes, I must admit I haven’t really used them much. The reason is that I had already taught myself bebop vocabulary years ago, entirely from the records. So whenever I look at these rules etc. I tend to find they are only telling me something that I already know how to do intuitively.

    For example the half step lines, I just learned my own version of this by putting chromatic steps in a line wherever it sounded ‘right’, because I’d heard Bird, Dexter etc. do something similar. I never thought of it as a set of rules as such.

    So I agree this ‘book’ information is great, but you should also put in just as much work to lift stuff from the records, otherwise you will not be properly equipped. Also listening and copying teaches you the rhythm, feel and attack of the lines as played by the masters, not just the notes they used. That’s so important I think.

  9. #1008

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    From memory I think the youtube TILF barry chap (Chris) tends to play these over 2 bars.
    it took me a while to figure out, but i'm glad TILF does not mean what i feared it to mean...

  10. #1009

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    it took me a while to figure out, but i'm glad TILF does not mean what i feared it to mean...
    well T makes a change from M.

  11. #1010

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    well T makes a change from M.
    not a huge one, according to google

  12. #1011

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    Hmmm, I hope you were using privacy settings

  13. #1012

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    The added note rules aren’t AFAIK meant to get you from one chord to another. They are meant to help you run lines over a given chord.
    Yes, I've had a quick look through my newly-arrived Workshop workbook and it's apparent that these half-step phrases aren't actually meant to be slotted in 'as is' into 'one chord per bar' situations. They are 'applied to scales descending from at least the octave' which means they must extend over at least one bar line. In fact the chart given in the workbook says to keep going and end them on the tonic, so many of them have a duration of 7 1/2 beats. They are presumably meant to be learned just as resources out of which you can select portions to use in the 'Applications' part of the process of creating lines, along with the other material in the basics - thirds, triads, pivots, chromatics etc.

    So I think there may be a phenomenon in which some of the headline BH ideas are often isolated and repeated out of context, and take on a life of their own away from their intended purpose.

  14. #1013

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    Quote Originally Posted by bleakanddivine
    Yes, I've had a quick look through my newly-arrived Workshop workbook and it's apparent that these half-step phrases aren't actually meant to be slotted in 'as is' into 'one chord per bar' situations. They are 'applied to scales descending from at least the octave' which means they must extend over at least one bar line. In fact the chart given in the workbook says to keep going and end them on the tonic, so many of them have a duration of 7 1/2 beats. They are presumably meant to be learned just as resources out of which you can select portions to use in the 'Applications' part of the process of creating lines, along with the other material in the basics - thirds, triads, pivots, chromatics etc.

    So I think there may be a phenomenon in which some of the headline BH ideas are often isolated and repeated out of context, and take on a life of their own away from their intended purpose.
    I think I’ve posted this before, but after the last bit of conversation in this thread I revisited it again this afternoon. Bill presents the half-step rules AND brother and sisters related dominants together with tons of examples:


  15. #1014

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    I would encourage everyone who is interested to watch the more recent TILF videos that Chris has put out. He pretty much always incorporates his ideas into actual lines (which he ALWAYS proclaims sound, "pretty" :lol, at tempo. It is pretty far from cerebral or divorced from actual music making. I have no skin in the game, my interests aren't exclusively bebop; but I think it does Chris a disservice to imply that he simply talks about scales and half-step rules without making music from them.

  16. #1015

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    I would encourage everyone who is interested to watch the more recent TILF videos that Chris has put out. He pretty much always incorporates his ideas into actual lines (which he ALWAYS proclaims sound, "pretty" :lol, at tempo. It is pretty far from cerebral or divorced from actual music making. I have no skin in the game, my interests aren't exclusively bebop; but I think it does Chris a disservice to imply that he simply talks about scales and half-step rules without making music from them.
    Sorry I haven't watched any of Chris's recent stuff (no offence; I haven't wanted to watch jazz instructional vids in my spare time) and I reaaaaalllllly don't want to sound like I am down on his material. I wrote what I wrote quite carefully, to try and allay that. Chris is way more purist and knowledgable about Barry's approach than me, and that's what he's sticking to. His videos have always been top notch. And he does put things into a musical context.

    But there are limitations of the form.... the way Barry teaches is as important as what he teaches IMO.

    The nearest thing to it out there to going to a workshop are the Howard Rees DVD sets, so I'd encourage the investment for anyone you is unsure. (Also, quite probably taking private lessons from students who know his teaching inside out.)
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-26-2020 at 07:21 PM.

  17. #1016

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    I'm not sure if I posted this above, but this is great for further context.


  18. #1017

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    When I started learning Barry stuff, I would practice the half step rules as far as I could play them, often two or more octaves. After becoming aware of them, I went back through my transcriptions plus in my record listening, I noticed that those half steps were there, but almost never more than one octave, often shorter. Made total sense to me as longer scale runs started to get a bit boring sounding.

    I am glad, however, that I did the longer practice because now when I solo, they just kind of come in for how long they are effective and then I'm off to something else.

    I do notice in many of Barry's videos and attending his Zoom workshops, he has them practiced in one octave usually. My guess is he thinks that is an max effective length.

  19. #1018

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    I think I’ve posted this before, but after the last bit of conversation in this thread I revisited it again this afternoon. Bill presents the half-step rules AND brother and sisters related dominants together with tons of examples:
    Thanks, I hadn't seen that video. An excellent presentation which makes
    a great play-along and some take away daily exercises.

    I do believe I've learned more relevant and immediately useful concepts
    from a few months of listening to guys like Chris Parks, Thomas Echols and
    now Bill Graham than I have ever in my decades of formal education.

  20. #1019

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Neverisky
    Thanks, I hadn't seen that video. An excellent presentation which makes
    a great play-along and some take away daily exercises.

    I do believe I've learned more relevant and immediately useful concepts
    from a few months of listening to guys like Chris Parks, Thomas Echols and
    now Bill Graham than I have ever in my decades of formal education.
    Isaac Raz and Connor also have good practical content on their channels.

  21. #1020

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    Anyone who works with the 5432 phrases should eventually discover their inversion, extensions (876b6 phrases) and the mirror images of each.

  22. #1021

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    Anyone who works with the 5432 phrases should eventually discover their inversion, extensions (876b6 phrases) and the mirror images of each.
    Is that something Barry Harris teaches? The inversion, extensions, and mirror images?

  23. #1022

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    Barry's style can be slightly dogmatic, and with the presentation of the methods as 'rules' and the drilling of his students to a parade-ground precision in the videos, it's easy to come away with the impression, re-inforced in many of the online and book-based resources around, that these particular note sequences are set in stone, and the only way mandated to do the job. But it's worth pointing out that he does make a couple of additional points in the first workbook video about the positioning and content of the half-steps, although they are almost just added as afterthoughts:

    1) "Let me explain one thing about these half-steps. The half-steps are just to keep you rhythmically tuned in. So the half-steps that I might use might not be the half-steps that you might hear, or that you might play in a place. One half step on the dominant 7 between the tonic and 7 could be between 6 and 5 or 2 and 1. I came up with putting these half-steps in but it doesn't have to be these particular half-steps. "

    2) " A half-step could be any note that you would want to make it" He then demonstrates using a 3rd or 5th instead of the usual semitone half-step.
    So if you just think of the half step as an element of filler you can use pretty much any combination of notes/rests to plug the gap, as in the examples here.

    Official Barry Harris Thread-domhsalts-jpg

  24. #1023

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    Quote Originally Posted by bleakanddivine
    Barry's style can be slightly dogmatic, and with the presentation of the methods as 'rules' and the drilling of his students to a parade-ground precision in the videos, it's easy to come away with the impression, re-inforced in many of the online and book-based resources around, that these particular note sequences are set in stone, and the only way mandated to do the job. But it's worth pointing out that he does make a couple of additional points in the first workbook video about the positioning and content of the half-steps, although they are almost just added as afterthoughts:

    1) "Let me explain one thing about these half-steps. The half-steps are just to keep you rhythmically tuned in. So the half-steps that I might use might not be the half-steps that you might hear, or that you might play in a place. One half step on the dominant 7 between the tonic and 7 could be between 6 and 5 or 2 and 1. I came up with putting these half-steps in but it doesn't have to be these particular half-steps. "

    2) " A half-step could be any note that you would want to make it" He then demonstrates using a 3rd or 5th instead of the usual semitone half-step.
    Barry says that the rules are more important than the notes. Howard Rees once taught an entire 10-hour intensive course (2 hours a day over 5 days) on the many and varied ways of applying these rules. The workbook fundamentals are only the beginning.

  25. #1024

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    Quote Originally Posted by bleakanddivine
    Barry's style can be slightly dogmatic
    No? Really? :-)

    and with the presentation of the methods as 'rules' and the drilling of his students to a parade-ground precision in the videos, it's easy to come away with the impression, re-inforced in many of the online and book-based resources around, that these particular note sequences are set in stone, and the only way mandated to do the job.
    I think that's well said. The drill thing arises just from the best way to teach things to a group I think. It's also good preparation for hearing things on the bandstand.

    Barry is a much more careful teacher than people give him credit for. I think he's trying to teach the way he learned.

    Again the invaluable resource for understanding the 'why' and 'how' of Barry as well as the 'what' this is 'Thinking in Jazz' Paul Berliner. More people should read this book (it's a big'un) but I think there's a big chance people take away the wrong stuff from Barry - that is view his teaching as some technical system or music theory concept - as fewer of his students have direct contact with the man himself. The problem being technical systems are easier to communicate in print and kind of end up perpetuating themselves (which is I think why Rees did DVDs, to keep Barry in the teaching.)

    The knowledge itself is only one part of it; the way knowledge is passed on is actually more important.

    Those who have been doing those workshops for years and years know what he is about; although some can be far more purist than Barry even haha.

    But it's worth pointing out that he does make a couple of additional points in the first workbook video about the positioning and content of the half-steps, although they are almost just added as afterthoughts:

    1) "Let me explain one thing about these half-steps. The half-steps are just to keep you rhythmically tuned in. So the half-steps that I might use might not be the half-steps that you might hear, or that you might play in a place. One half step on the dominant 7 between the tonic and 7 could be between 6 and 5 or 2 and 1. I came up with putting these half-steps in but it doesn't have to be these particular half-steps. "

    2) " A half-step could be any note that you would want to make it" He then demonstrates using a 3rd or 5th instead of the usual semitone half-step.
    So if you just think of the half step as an element of filler you can use pretty much any combination of notes/rests to plug the gap, as in the examples here.

    Official Barry Harris Thread-domhsalts-jpg
    Open strings and ghost notes work too. "The rule is more important than the note."

  26. #1025

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    Studying the rules allow us to hear these items Barry calls “The Basics”. After you get these in your ear, you hear them all the time on Bebop recordings. This helped me a lot in understanding how to use them so that I could get at least some bebop language into my improvising.

  27. #1026

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    Thomas Echols has just released a Mac/Win app implementing some of his ideas about applying Tymockzko's A Geometry of Music to Barry Harris 6-diminished harmony on the guitar.

    Check out this intro video:


  28. #1027

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    Here's a recent guitar-based exposition. Thorough, but quite fast-paced.