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  1. #851

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    Rintin's question about scale outline on RC. I'm pretty sure Bb up and down going into the bridge but can't remember bar 31-32. Same I think.
    Oh I see. Yes that would work.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #852

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    So, A2 and A3 turnarounds (Bb for 2 bars):
    A1
    | Bb | F7 | Bb | F7 |

    | Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb | F7 |
    A2
    | Bb | F7 | Bb | F7 |

    | Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb | Bb |
    B
    | D7 | D7 | G7 | G7 |

    | C7 | C7 | F7| F7 |
    A3
    | Bb | F7 | Bb | F7 |

    | Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb | Bb |



  4. #853

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    Look who came by Barry's class this week!
    (Photo by Richie Vitale)

    Official Barry Harris Thread-68865236_10156064589666862_2900601756717154304_o-jpg

  5. #854

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    Lee Konitz!
    Last edited by A. Kingstone; 08-21-2019 at 06:26 PM.

  6. #855
    Is that Tom Hanks?

  7. #856

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    That's Lee Konitz in blue. The gentleman leaning on the piano is pianist Michael Weiss - his credits are a who's who of bop and modern jazz.

  8. #857

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    My 876 phrases, extrapolated from 5432 phrases.

    8#237
    7b7#56
    624b634#45
    Last edited by rintincop; 09-07-2019 at 01:29 AM.

  9. #858

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    I do hope that these few Vid-Clips of… Barry Harris can be of some ..music-help.,!!.
















  10. #859

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    I have a question about (one aspect of) BH view of dominant-diminished relationship.

    Let's take A7 as our dominant chord.
    One of the diminished chords associated with A7 is Bb diminished (ie Bb, Db, E, G diminished chords). This is really a substitute for A7b9.
    On the other hand we also got the diminished related to C#min7b5 (substitute for A9). That chord is C diminished (C, Eb, Gb, A diminished chords). This chord actually is not a substitute for A7 but it resolves to C#min7b5 (and therefore to A7 to some extend).

    So to summarize there are two diminished chords that we can "utilize" to create chord movement around the A7 chord sound.
    - Bb diminished (and it's inversions). This is really a substitution for A7b9.
    - C diminished (and it's inversions) alternating with C#min7b5 (and it's inversions). This is really E minor-6-diminished scale (C#min7b5 = Emin6).

    C diminished (unlike Bb diminished) doesn't function as a substitution but as a secondary dominant. So one of the diminishes (Bb) substitutes for A7, the other (C diminished) resolves to A7.

    But of course you can't just alternate these diminishes and expect one to resolve to another chord. Obviously nothing can resolve to a diminished convincingly. In fact if you combine these 2 diminished chords you get C half-whole diminished scale! So if you play one after another (and their inversions) you're just going up and down the diminished scale.

    So the question. Are these two diminished chords applied to dominant context completely separately (even though they come from the same diminished scale)?
    BH uses these diminishes typically by alternating them with their destinations. In this context, C diminished can be alternated with Emin6. However Bb diminished is a direct substitute for A7b9, so do you just use Bb diminished (and it's inversions) by itself without alternating them with another chord type?

  11. #860

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I have a question about (one aspect of) BH view of dominant-diminished relationship.

    Let's take A7 as our dominant chord.
    One of the diminished chords associated with A7 is Bb diminished (ie Bb, Db, E, G diminished chords). This is really a substitute for A7b9.
    On the other hand we also got the diminished related to C#min7b5 (substitute for A9). That chord is C diminished (C, Eb, Gb, A diminished chords). This chord actually is not a substitute for A7 but it resolves to C#min7b5 (and therefore to A7 to some extend).

    So to summarize there are two diminished chords that we can "utilize" to create chord movement around the A7 chord sound.
    - Bb diminished (and it's inversions). This is really a substitution for A7b9.
    - C diminished (and it's inversions) alternating with C#min7b5 (and it's inversions). This is really E minor-6-diminished scale (C#min7b5 = Emin6).

    C diminished (unlike Bb diminished) doesn't function as a substitution but as a secondary dominant. So one of the diminishes (Bb) substitutes for A7, the other (C diminished) resolves to A7.

    But of course you can't just alternate these diminishes and expect one to resolve to another chord. Obviously nothing can resolve to a diminished convincingly. In fact if you combine these 2 diminished chords you get C half-whole diminished scale! So if you play one after another (and their inversions) you're just going up and down the diminished scale.

    So the question. Are these two diminished chords applied to dominant context completely separately (even though they come from the same diminished scale)?
    BH uses these diminishes typically by alternating them with their destinations. In this context, C diminished can be alternated with Emin6. However Bb diminished is a direct substitute for A7b9, so do you just use Bb diminished (and it's inversions) by itself without alternating them with another chord type?
    The Bb dim chord can be substituted for the A7 as you stated as well as the C7, Eb7 and Gb7 using the same device of thinking of each note of the diminished chord as a b9 of the corresponding 7th chord.
    So as well as having the Bb dim
    Bb, Db, E, G (don’t give me a hard time about enharmonic equivalents here. No one want to see an Fb and Abb)
    we also have each of the root notes for the four 7th chords.
    A, C, Eb, and Gb

    This explains the use of the two diminished chords more elegantly than your concept of borrowing the Cdim chord from the Emi6.

  12. #861

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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    The Bb dim chord can be substituted for the A7 as you stated as well as the C7, Eb7 and Gb7 using the same device of thinking of each note of the diminished chord as a b9 of the corresponding 7th chord.
    Yes I agree so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    So as well as having the Bb dim
    Bb, Db, E, G (don’t give me a hard time about enharmonic equivalents here. No one want to see an Fb and Abb)
    I won't give you hard time about enharmonic spelling as I wrote down these four diminishes exactly the same way in my post.
    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    we also have each of the root notes for the four 7th chords.
    A, C, Eb, and Gb
    Yes I know that but that really isn't the question. I already stated the use of Bb diminished (without reference to the related family of 4 dominants as it's not related to the question).
    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    This explains the use of the two diminished chords more elegantly than your concept of borrowing the Cdim chord from the Emi6.

    As much as I find it flattering that you think that minor 6 diminished scale is my concept, I have to admit belongs to BH Playing E minor 6 diminished over A7 is exactly how BH would describe it. This was the C diminished part of the question.
    The question is about the relationship between the Bb and C diminishes with respect to A7.

  13. #862

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    I thought your question was what to alternate Bbdim with. Using the four tonic notes to build the Cdim you would then alternate between these two chords.
    Sorry if I misinterpreted your question.

  14. #863

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    The question is about the relationship between the Bb and C diminishes with respect to A7.
    As you note, Bb dim (C# dim) is the dim on the third of the dominant (A7).

    C dim (A dim) is the dim associated with the tritone’s minor (Bbm6dim) aka A7alt.

  15. #864

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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    Bb, Db, E, G (don’t give me a hard time about enharmonic equivalents here. No one want to see an Fb and Abb)
    *Simmers with quiet rage*

  16. #865

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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    I thought your question was what to alternate Bbdim with. Using the four tonic notes to build the Cdim you would then alternate between these two chords.
    Sorry if I misinterpreted your question.
    No worries. It's hard to clearly phrase such a question without it turning into a system of differential equations or taking 7 pages long.
    So now the context is more clear, in short, for A7 we got two diminishes.

    - C diminished. This can be alternated with E min 6 (or C# -7b5). In other words BH's E minor-6-diminished scale.
    - Bb diminished. This is A7b9 or as you stated the diminished that generates the family of 4 related dominants (A7, C7, Eb7, Gb7).

    OK now I see what you meant in your response: A7, C7, Eb7 and Gb7 are also the roots of C diminished. However in my view the role of C diminished is more in the first sense (E min 6 diminished scale). IMO, these 4 dominants are conceptually related to Bb diminished in the BH world.
    You're correct that I was wondering what can be alternated with Bb diminished. Are you suggesting that A7, C7, Eb7 and Gb7 can be used to alternate with Bb diminished? Or do you mean that we can alternate these dominants (which are related to Bb diminished)?

  17. #866

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    I guess we also have Ab diminished to alternate with Amaj6. By treating A7 as Amaj6. But let's leave that one out for now.

  18. #867

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    As you note, Bb dim (C# dim) is the dim on the third of the dominant (A7).

    C dim (A dim) is the dim associated with the tritone’s minor (Bbm6dim) aka A7alt.
    I think it is C dim, not Bb diminished that is related to the third of A7. (C#min7b5 alternated with C diminished). The bigger puzzle to me is if Bb diminished can be alternated with something and fit into A7 harmonic context.

  19. #868

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    This is something I’ve thought about too. Barry says on an A7 you can play Emin6/dim scale (= A9) or Bbmin6/dim (= A7 alt). So both of these already contain movement in their respective chord scales (and they share the same dim chord, i.e. Adim and its equivalents).

    But of course you can just play a Bbdim chord to get A7b9. But then what movements do you apply to it? I don’t know if Barry says anything about this. I tend to just move it in minor thirds (so to the other equivalent dim chords). Or maybe move from the dim chord below each one (i.e. play Adim to Bbdim, then Cdim to C#dim, etc). I think Wes Montgomery occasionally did something like this in his chord solos (or at least he just played dim chords in any sequence he felt like, to outline a particular melodic line).

    Might be worth looking at the ‘things I learned from Barry Harris’ YouTube videos, maybe he covers this point somewhere.

  20. #869

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I think Wes Montgomery occasionally did something like this in his chord solos (or at least he just played dim chords in any sequence he felt like, to outline a particular melodic line).
    Yes, specifically at 0:21. Coincidentally it's also over A7b9. I remember transcribing this last year in preparation for a performance. He starts with jumping b3 to an inversion, then continues diminished scale, finishes chromatically:

  21. #870

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    Yes I think you can basically move a dim chord to any other dim chords you like, as long as you keep moving (also helps if you are as hip at it as Wes!)

  22. #871

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    From the Diminished (3rd of Dominant - A7 / C#o ) :
    Barry will BORROW (related Dominants - C Eb Gb [A) / RESOLVE (back to diminished) / REPEAT minor 3rd away)

    BORROW
    RESOLVE
    REPEAT

    *

    ---------------

    If Barry's 7b5o Scale (or 7o Scale) is considered we have all 3 diminished chords to play/move on our A7 fakebook chord.


    A7

    Diminished Built On Third Of A7 - C# E G Bb (Enharmonic always)

    Minor Sixth Diminished On The Fifth & Tri-tones Minor - Em6o & Bbm6o - related diminished = Ao Co Ebo Gbo

    A7o & A7b5o Scales - related diminished = B D F Ab


    Hope That Helps

    *
    PS: In the BORROWING section (don't have a book on hand for page #'s)
    Last edited by A. Kingstone; 09-06-2019 at 09:30 PM.

  23. #872

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    From the Diminished (3rd of Dominant - A7 / C#o ) :
    Barry will BORROW (related Dominants - C Eb Gb [A) / RESOLVE (back to diminished) / REPEAT minor 3rd away)

    BORROW
    RESOLVE
    REPEAT
    With this do you mean, for example, C7 C#o Eb7 Eo etc. ?
    I do have the book, I'll check this out in the book as well.

  24. #873

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    With this do you mean, for example, C7 C#o Eb7 Eo etc. ?
    I do have the book, I'll check this out in the book as well.
    No; I don't think so.

    You have raised a fascinating question.
    Last edited by A. Kingstone; 09-07-2019 at 08:40 AM.

  25. #874

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    From the Diminished (3rd of Dominant - A7 / C#o ) :
    Barry will BORROW (related Dominants - C Eb Gb [A) / RESOLVE (back to diminished) / REPEAT minor 3rd away)

    BORROW
    RESOLVE
    REPEAT
    Oh I see do you mean diminishes borrowing notes from C7, Eb7, Gb7 and back?

  26. #875

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175

    But of course you can't just alternate these diminishes and expect one to resolve to another chord. Obviously nothing can resolve to a diminished convincingly. In fact if you combine these 2 diminished chords you get C half-whole diminished scale! So if you play one after another (and their inversions) you're just going up and down the diminished scale.
    Going up the diminished scale is not bad, it resolves when your dominant goes to a tonic. So over A7 you may play the chords Bbdim C dim Db dim Eb dim etc... and eventually resolve to Dmaj7

    Play "E-6 dim" scale chords over A7 when it's "A7 #11"
    Play "Bb-6 dim" scale chords over A7 when it's the "ALT"
    Play GMaj scale chords over A7 when is "A7 sus"

    Simply play Bbdim and its inversions over A7 when it's simply "A7b9"
    Last edited by rintincop; 09-07-2019 at 01:41 AM.

  27. #876

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone

    A7
    Diminished Built On Third Of A7 - C# E G Bb (Enharmonic always).
    Minor Sixth Diminished On The Fifth & Tri-tones Minor - Em6o & Bbm6o - related diminished = Ao Co Ebo Gbo.
    A7o & A7b5o Scales - related diminished = B D F Ab.

    I agree with your first two sentences, but what use is "B D F Ab" over A7 ? I don't think
    "B D F Ab" over A7 works.

  28. #877

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    I agree with your first two sentences, but what use is "B D F Ab" over A7 ? I don't think
    "B D F Ab" over A7 works.
    That is just the dim chord contained in the A7/dim and A7b5/dim scales, so you would play it within those scales rather than in isolation.

  29. #878

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Oh I see do you mean diminishes borrowing notes from C7, Eb7, Gb7 and back?
    Yes

  30. #879

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    That is just the dim chord contained in the A7/dim and A7b5/dim scales, so you would play it within those scales rather than in isolation.

    Yes

  31. #880

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    Going up the diminished scale is not bad, it resolves when your dominant goes to a tonic. So over A7 you may play the chords Bbdim C dim Db dim Eb dim etc... and eventually resolve to Dmaj7
    True, in fact the Wes Montgomery video above is a good example of this sort of thing (he even moves dim's chromatically in the end). In that case those diminishes (implying A7b6) resolve back to Dmin7 (the first chord of Yesterdays).
    I was thinking in terms of the typical BH tension-resolution movements, like along his major and minor diminished scales. Just going up dim scale doesn't have that effect, but yes, it still works in a different way.

  32. #881

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    what use is "B D F Ab" over A7 ? I don't think "B D F Ab" over A7 works.
    Those notes can be seen as E7b9, dominant of A7. Playing the notes of the dominant
    of the chord of the moment, allows a movement away and back to the principal chord.
    This is another way to look at notes other than from their strict literal analytical function against the notated chord symbol.

  33. #882

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    In the excellent Jimmy Raney Aebersold play along “10 favorite jazz standards” Jimmy substitutes the V7 chord for a #IIdim chord.
    He does it in “Hotel Grande” and “Like Somebody”. Both are in the key of Eb and he plays F-7, F#dim, Eb in the turnaround instead of the usual F-7, Bb7, Eb.
    Food for thought.

  34. #883

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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    In the excellent Jimmy Raney Aebersold play along “10 favorite jazz standards” Jimmy substitutes the V7 chord for a #IIdim chord.
    He does it in “Hotel Grande” and “Like Somebody”. Both are in the key of Eb and he plays F-7, F#dim, Eb in the turnaround instead of the usual F-7, Bb7, Eb.
    Food for thought.
    Always like the sound of that sub.

    Yeah I think thing to bear in mind is the function of a dim7 chord is to link one chord to another.

  35. #884

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Always like the sound of that sub.

    Yeah I think thing to bear in mind is the function of a dim7 chord is to link one chord to another.
    Exactly. We all get caught up in thinking of chords vertically. Meaning what notes do what to each chord. When we do this we often forget chords exist in a horizontal environment. They are in motion, coming from somewhere on the way to somewhere else. The #IIdim makes an excellent movement from IImi to I6th chord, a very well used Barry Harris move. The strength of the resolution is what makes it work, rather than thinking of how the diminished chord works in isolation with the V7 chord. You have to put the chord in context of the progression it’s in.

  36. #885

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    "Why doesn't anyone play the flat three diminished anymore?"

    - Barry

  37. #886

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    "Why doesn't anyone play the flat three diminished anymore?"

    - Barry
    According to Wikipedia it’s hardly used in jazz

  38. #887

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    "Why doesn't anyone play the flat three diminished anymore?"

    - Barry
    Apparently because they are too busy playing the sharp two diminished.

  39. #888

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    C dim major 7th resolving to Cmaj7 , "Bali Hai" for example, uses that biii diminished sound. Also, "The hills are alive, with the sound of music."
    F to Fdim maj7
    Last edited by rintincop; 09-24-2019 at 06:29 PM.

  40. #889

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    C dim major 7th resolving to Cmaj7 , "Bali Hai" for example, uses that biii diminished sound.
    I’ll throw Spring is Here into that group as well.

  41. #890

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    Am I the only person who thinks of the I/bIII/#IVo/VI dim 7 as the blues chord? It harmonises the most common melodic embellishing blue notes b3/b5 so you can always put it in there.

  42. #891

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Am I the only person who thinks of the I/bIII/#IVo/VI dim 7 as the blues chord? It harmonises the most common melodic embellishing blue notes b3/b5 so you can always put it in there.
    VladanMovies & CCC - Car Camera Clips: How Blue Is Your Blews ... continued


    VladanMovies & CCC - Car Camera Clips: How Blue Is Your Blues

    Sent from My Blog Page

  43. #892

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    From the Diminished (3rd of Dominant - A7 / C#o ) :
    Barry will BORROW (related Dominants - C Eb Gb [A) / RESOLVE (back to diminished) / REPEAT minor 3rd away)

    BORROW
    RESOLVE
    REPEAT

    *

    ---------------

    If Barry's 7b5o Scale (or 7o Scale) is considered we have all 3 diminished chords to play/move on our A7 fakebook chord.


    A7

    Diminished Built On Third Of A7 - C# E G Bb (Enharmonic always)

    Minor Sixth Diminished On The Fifth & Tri-tones Minor - Em6o & Bbm6o - related diminished = Ao Co Ebo Gbo

    A7o & A7b5o Scales - related diminished = B D F Ab


    Hope That Helps

    *
    PS: In the BORROWING section (don't have a book on hand for page #'s)
    Alan, I assume you mean your book, or is this one of the Barry Harris Workshop books?

  44. #893

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petimar
    Alan, I assume you mean your book, or is this one of the Barry Harris Workshop books?

    Yes Barry and my book regarding harmony for guitar. Sorry I didn't see your question sooner.

    I was visiting Howard Rees who produced the Workshop Videos and books and asked him about the first couple of bars of Embraceable You which I've been working in different keys. He asked me if I knew why Barry plays Embraceable You in his key of choice: I didn't.

    Howard told me that Barry was playing the Village Vanguard and Tony Bennett was there and sat in, suggested Embraceable You in 'F' and Barry has played it in 'F' ever since. It sits nicely on guitar.

  45. #894

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    Yes Barry and my book regarding harmony for guitar. Sorry I didn't see your question sooner.

    I was visiting Howard Rees who produced the Workshop Videos and books and asked him about the first couple of bars of Embraceable You which I've been working in different keys. He asked me if I knew why Barry plays Embraceable You in his key of choice: I didn't.

    Howard told me that Barry was playing the Village Vanguard and Tony Bennett was there and sat in, suggested Embraceable You in 'F' and Barry has played it in 'F' ever since. It sits nicely on guitar.
    Joe Alterman's Blog: Tony Bennett at the Village Vanguard

  46. #895

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    Thank you so much! That is lovely.

    Alan

  47. #896

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    Regarding so called 8 7 6 phrases,
    C7 would be different than C6


    see below

    Last edited by rintincop; 09-22-2019 at 11:09 PM.

  48. #897
    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    8 #2 3 7
    7 b7 #5 6
    6 3 4 #4 5
    I'm not sure if those work out rhythmically. I didn't play it, but just looking at it here, here's my thoughts:

    For the 8 phrase I would want one that started on the down beat and ended on 7 on a down beat
    for the 7 it would start on down beat and end on 6 on the upbeat
    6 would start on an upbeat and end on a downbeat on 5

    maybe try that?

  49. #898
    Spent several weeks working through "the basics " from the DVD , and I would have to say that it's a ton of material. everything I've done so far has been dominant , and again, that's a lot by itself.

    I'm just trying to imagine at what point of being able to actually PLAY the stuff he has outlined in his material, which I would think is months and years worth of work .....at what point am I going to actually take the time to develop new extrapolations like 876? I don't really have a problem with people doing whatever, but I'm trying to understand the mindset . Are you guys PLAYING all of the basic material like a boss already?

    Also, having never looked at it at ALL, I would wonder if maybe the simplest way to reverse engineer 876 type lines wouldn't be simply to play 5432 super impositions of other chords. The important minor' s 5432 over dominant is 2176 of the dominant colored for example? Am I doing that correctly? Anyway, you could reverse engineer 876 basically for major, minor or dominant by subbing in the other types in the same way.

    Anyway, that's already its own thing , and somewhat extra credit in terms of what Harris looks at as being "basic". Dominant first then this other stuff . Right?

    Again, I'm not trying to criticize, just curious, having spent a lot of time with this personally lately.

  50. #899

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Spent several weeks working through "the basics " from the DVD , and I would have to say that it's a ton of material. everything I've done so far has been dominant , and again, that's a lot by itself.

    I'm just trying to imagine at what point of being able to actually PLAY the stuff he has outlined in his material, which I would think is months and years worth of work .....at what point am I going to actually take the time to develop new extrapolations like 876? I don't really have a problem with people doing whatever, but I'm trying to understand the mindset . Are you guys PLAYING all of the basic material like a boss already?

    Also, having never looked at it at ALL, I would wonder if maybe the simplest way to reverse engineer 876 type lines wouldn't be simply to play 5432 super impositions of other chords. The important minor' s 5432 over dominant is 2176 of the dominant colored for example? Am I doing that correctly?

    Anyway, that's already its own thing , and somewhat extra credit in terms of what Harris looks at as being "basic". Dominant first then this other stuff . Right?

    Again, I'm not trying to criticize, just curious, having spent a lot of time with this personally lately.
    I'm not saying this because Christian is a forum member. I don't know him personally and I have no stake in the success of his videos. I'm saying it because I think it's true. This video is the best material I've seen about how to shred BH stuff and get them in your playing (as a supplement to the original BH content). Simplified in a very purposeful way. There is also a worksheet somewhere for the stuff he plays I think:
    Last edited by Tal_175; 09-20-2019 at 01:20 PM.

  51. #900
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Spent several weeks working through "the basics " from the DVD , and I would have to say that it's a ton of material. everything I've done so far has been dominant , and again, that's a lot by itself.

    I'm just trying to imagine at what point of being able to actually PLAY the stuff he has outlined in his material, which I would think is months and years worth of work .....at what point am I going to actually take the time to develop new extrapolations like 876? I don't really have a problem with people doing whatever, but I'm trying to understand the mindset . Are you guys PLAYING all of the basic material like a boss already?

    Also, having never looked at it at ALL, I would wonder if maybe the simplest way to reverse engineer 876 type lines wouldn't be simply to play 5432 super impositions of other chords. The important minor' s 5432 over dominant is 2176 of the dominant colored for example? Am I doing that correctly? Anyway, you could reverse engineer 876 basically for major, minor or dominant by subbing in the other types in the same way.

    Anyway, that's already its own thing , and somewhat extra credit in terms of what Harris looks at as being "basic". Dominant first then this other stuff . Right?

    Again, I'm not trying to criticize, just curious, having spent a lot of time with this personally lately.
    I'm not 100% what you're saying here, is this a rhetorical question? I've been shedding The Barry Harris ABCs for about 4 years, and I like to put my work to use by creating lines. I don't think students need to graduate from the ABCs before they can create stuff. You seem to have pretty strong opinions for someone new to the stuff