The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Okay there are a couple of examples of the ‘swing twiddle’ that I associate with Charlie Christian and Django in CC’s solo on Stompin at the Savoy, transcribed here:

    Stompin’ at Minton’s (by Miles Okazaki) | DO THE M@TH

    Both times on beat 3z interestingly, he plays a ascending triplet figure on beat 2.

    Anyway that’s just going on what people have said, I need to watch the PG masterclass but haven’t had time. What was the deeper context?

    Interesting thing to talk about. Rhythm and phrasing....
    it was just in passing. in general, could one possibly say swing triplets on 1 and 3 and bop 2 and 4? I like rules of thumb

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  3. #427

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    Perfect pitch is actually rather rare. As a classical trained t-bone and vocalist you learn that it's really, for nearly everyone with good pitch awareness, a *relative* pitch awareness.

    Some tighter than others of course, and most tighter at some pitches than others. My voice has the passagio points chest/mixed at middle C, mixed/head at F above that. (Pure dramatic tenor points.)

    So if I can hum something in that area, I can give you within a semi-tone what the pitch is. It's a solid physical thing, even more than just hearing it.

    I've got quite a low end for a tenor. And as it's a naturally huge resonant instrument that most people don't wanna be within 15 foot directly in front of me even at moderate output (for my instrument) I normally sing in lower ranges in most public group singing situations, where the output is less and high frequency overtones diminished somewhat. I can frequently find a harmony line to sing also. I sight read rather well.

    But that lower octave and a half, I can't give you nearly the exact pitch "answer" that I can near or in passagio. By low C, I'll be within a tone and a half. The F below that, within 2 tones.

    Nearly everyone I've studied with, knew in college, or met ... is the same.

    The closest to a standard "understanding" of perfect pitch I've been around are a couple pianists who could typically be within a semi-tone through a good range. But even they dropped accuracy out of a three/four octave center of the keyboard.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

  4. #428

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    it was just in passing. in general, could one possibly say swing triplets on 1 and 3 and bop 2 and 4? I like rules of thumb
    Yeah, that could work. I think the swing twiddle does sound quite specific to the period. It's one of those nuances I would tend to intuitively avoid on more modern gigs (but it creeps in anyway lol.) I tend to phrase in a different way on swing gigs to bop/post-bop gigs, at least I think I do.

    That said, when I'm next able, I'm going to have a careful look over the Omnibook. I remember there being quite a few triplets on 1 and 3 in Bird's music, so I kind of discounted the 2 and 4 idea as not being a general rule, but I think a bit more detail could be interesting.

    Also, other players. Second generation bop practice differs in many ways from Parker...

    This is not an attempt to poke holes in PG's teaching (!) BTW - the man is obviously absolutely astonishing in his command of authentic bop phraseology, but I think it's an interesting point that is useful as a guideline for the student, but opens a door to a deeper understanding like so many guidelines in music.

    One thing that I dislike in my playing and some other guitarists who have checked out the same material, is when the triplet is too lazy, and while rushing it is even worse, it's got to be just right so it pops. Not too martial and articulated either. (BTW I must check out GJ triplets now with this stuff in mind.)

    BH's triplets are a thing of beauty. To my ears, it has to be so the 8ths are behind and in the upbeat pocket, but the triplets are precisely on the beat and subdividing exactly. It's the push and pull against the beat while everything is perfectly in the upbeat 'and' pocket that makes it swing so hard, I reckon.

    BTW, I'm going to repost this Brad Mehldau article regarding Barry's triplets thing. Mehldau doesn't quite buy it.... But his reasons are respectful to Barry, perceptive and deep.

    Carnegie 05 — Brad Mehldau

    Carnegie 06 — Brad Mehldau

  5. #429

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    BTW that Bud transcription on the Mehldau page 06 contains 2 triplets on the 1 and 2 on the 2!

  6. #430

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Okay there are a couple of examples of the ‘swing twiddle’ that I associate with Charlie Christian and Django in CC’s solo on Stompin at the Savoy, transcribed here:

    Both times on beat 3z interestingly, he plays a ascending triplet figure on beat 2.
    Seems I do not know to count up to 4.

    As far as I could see:

    on 2 / bar 4
    on 3/ 22
    on 2/ 29
    on 2/ 62
    on 1/ 81 (1/4 triole)

    that is
    3 x 2
    1 x 3
    1 x 1

    Figures do not really supporting proposed Swing Vs. Bop rule, if we agree that CC and Django, whoever they might be, are "swing twiddlers".

  7. #431

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    Coltrane plays a swing twiddle on that If I Were a Bell solo so that’s that theory out of the window.

    I will watch the PG masterclass soon...

  8. #432

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    and I would be happy to look over and respond to your analysis when you're ready.
    Hi,

    OK, I think I'm ready to post this. When I started this, I didn't really know where it will eventually go. What I tried to do is to deduce some pattern and "rules" from this solo, things I know are applicable to the many other of Barry's solos as well. So eventually I ended up writing an overview of Barry's playing in this solo (at least the way I see it, not yet sure what it worth to anyone else, lol), and then I try to analyse the transcription in relation to the concepts described in the overview.

    I guess this is still work in progress, but here it is:
    Ornithology - Barry Harris Transcription - Overview and Analysis.pdf - Google Drive

    Feel free to comment and give feedback. Remember that this is just my own point of view based on my own observations, not not necessarily aligned with Barry's way of thinking, or his way of teaching it...

    Cheers, and I really hope this is gonna be useful to anyone...
    Tamir

  9. #433

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    Hey,

    Here's another chorus of Barry playing 'How High The Moon' from his 1958 recording with Sonny Stitt:



    PDF here:

    How high the Moon - 1958 - Barry Harris Transcription.pdf - Google Drive

    Enjoy,
    Tamir

  10. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal
    Hey,

    Here's another chorus of Barry playing 'How High The Moon' from his 1958 recording with Sonny Stitt:



    PDF here:

    How high the Moon - 1958 - Barry Harris Transcription.pdf - Google Drive

    Enjoy,
    Tamir
    thanks a million

  11. #435

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    The album could be Sonny Rollins - Worktime. Some of the tracks are fast tempos as I recall.
    I think this is the album Sonny Boy (album) - Wikipedia

    They're on fire!

  12. #436

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    Sorry, I’ve made another one



    This time a Blues, especially for Bird’s birthday!

    PDF:
    Passport (Blues) - Barry Harry Transcription 1958.pdf - Google Drive

    Cheers,
    Tamir

  13. #437
    Thanks Tamir! I've picking and choosing phrases from them

  14. #438

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    Hey Joe,
    Did you get a chance to look at the summary I wrote on Barry's playing on Ornithology? Here:
    Ornithology - Barry Harris Transcription - Overview and Analysis.pdf - Google Drive

    Would love to hear you thoughts.

  15. #439

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    so the first 10 measures were what he dictated, and then the second half is what you came up with?

    Sorry for such a late reply! Only just came back from holidays. Up until the first bar of Ab^ is what Barry had us play, from then on it's what I tried out.

  16. #440

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    Practical examples of BH comping ideas over ATTYA:


  17. #441

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    Just watched him at the Chicago Jazz Festival with Charles McPherson/Larry Gray/George Fludas, he was sublime. He thanked Chicago for Joe Segal "who kept Charlie Parker alive"

  18. #442

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    Quote Originally Posted by medblues
    Just watched him at the Chicago Jazz Festival with Charles McPherson/Larry Gray/George Fludas, he was sublime. He thanked Chicago for Joe Segal "who kept Charlie Parker alive"

    McPherson is a monster! Beautiful alto player. One of Barry's oldest students.

  19. #443

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    here's a transcription i done about a year ago! Bud Powell on Ornithology. Thought you guys might find it useful.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  20. #444

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz
    here's a transcription i done about a year ago! Bud Powell on Ornithology. Thought you guys might find it useful.
    Thanks! this is one of the best solos of all times
    Would be a nice exercise to find similar licks/motives in Bud's and Barry's solos... I think I already spotted couple

  21. #445
    these are fantastic... i wonder if there’s a way to compile them and i can put it on the front page of the thread that lists all the resources. i’ll add “things i learned from barry harris” guy too

  22. #446

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    My understanding is scale outlines are for learning to hear a tunes chord changes and form through playing scales that "sound" these chords.
    BH also has scale practice methods in the ABC's section of the workshop dvd. Scales in thirds, diatonic chords and arpeggios played in different rhythms etc.
    Are these two methods also meant to be combined? I personally find playing scale outlines to have a very rapidly diminishing returns. The way I like to practice tunes is to come up with patterns that are made up of scale and chord tones and play those in different rhythmic forms. That gets me closer to improvisation than playing ascending scales and still allows me to hear the chords changes.
    Did you see anywhere where BH uses the scale practice ideas in the ABC's to outline tunes?

  23. #447

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    My understanding is scale outlines are for learning to hear a tunes chord changes and form through playing scales that "sound" these chords.
    BH also has scale practice methods in the ABC's section of the workshop dvd. Scales in thirds, diatonic chords and arpeggios played in different rhythms etc.
    Are these two methods also meant to be combined? I personally find playing scale outlines to have a very rapidly diminishing returns. The way I like to practice tunes is to come up with patterns that are made up of scale and chord tones and play those in different rhythmic forms. That gets me closer to improvisation than playing ascending scales and still allows me to hear the chords changes.
    Did you see anywhere where BH uses the scale practice ideas in the ABC's to outline tunes?
    I think the idea behind the scale outlines are that it gives you the scales for the song, then it's up to you to implement the ABC's. Take the blues for example. The Blues in C. We know that the first bar is C7 scale so we have all those things from the ABC for C7 that we can choose from to play on C7.

    Thats what comes to my mind at least. I'd be happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

  24. #448

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz
    I think the idea behind the scale outlines are that it gives you the scales for the song, then it's up to you to implement the ABC's. Take the blues for example. The Blues in C. We know that the first bar is C7 scale so we have all those things from the ABC for C7 that we can choose from to play on C7.

    Thats what comes to my mind at least. I'd be happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.
    That makes sense to me too. Which is why I practice this way. I just was wondering if BH believes there is a particular point to practicing tune in the exact way scale outlines are presented.

  25. #449

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz
    here's a transcription i done about a year ago! Bud Powell on Ornithology. Thought you guys might find it useful.
    Thanks. My first full jazz solo transcription project was Donna Lee head and the first CP solo. I learned a lot from that. Since then I learn every tune by transcribing first and than check the charts after. Only for solo lines though. I want to get into the habit of transcribing chords as well which I find a lot harder and some of these old bebop tunes have such bad recordings.

  26. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz
    I think the idea behind the scale outlines are that it gives you the scales for the song, then it's up to you to implement the ABC's. Take the blues for example. The Blues in C. We know that the first bar is C7 scale so we have all those things from the ABC for C7 that we can choose from to play on C7.

    Thats what comes to my mind at least. I'd be happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

    thats exactly it. so you’ve run the scale outline so many times you subconciously know 1 bar c 1 bar f 2 bar c 2 bars f. without thinking because you drilled it in, you can feel it. then what you do within those scales is a mixtures of thirds, chromatics, pivoting, triads, chords, added note rules, 5432...and since those have been drilled into muscle memory by combining them you get legit bebop lines that are spontanious and you will even surprise yourself