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Do you mean the Barry Harris workshop DVDs? You'd have to have the DVDs to really start. As stated above, that one scale is for more harmonic application. As far as its use as melodic scale, it's more like the coincidental occurrence when you start added-note scales as Christian stated:
Originally Posted by rlrhett
The common denominator with all of these melodic patterns, is the rhythmic aspect . The scale rules achieve landing chord tones on the beat in a very specific way. Even the way he applies the MAJOR scales you're talking about... They follow the exact same rhythm/chord-tone guidelines which are found in the added-note scales. Originally Posted by christianm77
Essentially, they are the same thing.
I don't have it in front of me, but you can find the added-note rule which lines up exactly with the major scale runs he's outlining in the very beginning over tunes.
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07-05-2018 10:14 PM
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So we have two votes for harmonic scales and melodic ones are separate concepts for BH (Matt and Christian) and one for the same (Tal_175). FWIW I agree with Matt and Christian that the material (at least in the Howard Reese Barry Harris Workshop DVDs) appears presented that way.
Still, the question remains has BH directly addressed this question?
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I wouldn't say they are the same concepts. However, links can be found. I was referring to the underlying connection between these in terms of the use of the related dominants through the shared diminished scale. Originally Posted by rlrhett
I agree with Matt and Christian that chromatic b6'th in the diminished maj 6th is coincidental to the half note played in the major scale as the half notes can go anywhere. In fact they do go into other intervals in the half step examples.Last edited by Tal_175; 07-05-2018 at 10:58 PM.
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If you look at the pages on the m6dim scale in the ‘Applications’ section of the first workbook, you will see Barry applying the scale to lines. Originally Posted by rlrhett
Harmony and lines are separated for teaching purposes but the compartments are not watertight, and certainly not in practice.
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Sure. I'd start off with the two things compartmentalised for the beginner. Seems to be the way Barry does it. Originally Posted by pcjazz
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I've heard somewhere that Barry Harris teaches using tritone's minor for altered dominant sounds (I don't have the second Howard Rees set, may be explained there?).
Obviously, that amounts to playing the tritone dominant scale starting from the b9 of the dominant chord (ie playing Db7 over G7 starting from Ab).
Compared to the altered scale approach this is playing Ab Dorian over G7 instead of Ab melodic minor. The only difference is the notes Gb (tritone approach) vs G (melodic minor approach). I know Barry Harris would never say Ab Dorian, I am saying it because I am doing a "cross-paradigm" comparison
So here is my question. Does he really suggest playing the natural 7 (Gb) instead of G in these situations? Are there examples of this use by say Charlie Parker that you can point me to?
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Yes he does, rewatch DVD set 1. He actually identifies it as a desirable sound. Originally Posted by Tal_175
I've heard somewhere that Barry Harris teaches using tritone's minor for altered dominant sounds (I don't have the second Howard Rees set, may be explained there?).
Obviously, that amounts to playing the tritone dominant scale starting from the b9 of the dominant chord (ie playing Db7 over G7 starting from Ab).
Compared to the altered scale approach this is playing Ab Dorian over G7 instead of Ab melodic minor. The only difference is the notes Gb (tritone approach) vs G (melodic minor approach). I know Barry Harris would never say Ab Dorian, I am saying it because I am doing a "cross-paradigm" comparison
So here is my question. Does he really suggest playing the natural 7 (Gb) instead of G in these situations? Are there examples of this use by say Charlie Parker that you can point me to?
Using the #4 of the key (maj7 of the V7) is fairly common in bop lines. Night in Tunisia springs to mind right away.
(Ab Dorian is more cadentially efficient than Ab mm incidentally.)
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I also think given the BH melodic formulas like the 3 ending in minor you also get the G as well (again like NIT)
People make a separation between these sounds (Dorian, mm) - listen to the greats of the bop era and they seem pretty interchangeable to me.
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Barry: Ryo you play good bro, you know what bothers me?
Ryo: i know it's your students
Barry: How'd ya know
Ryo: you have told them the same thing for 30 years
Barry: What
Ryo: You told them "and"
Barry: You could say......................................
Ryo: You did say
Barry: I said what
Ryo: You said "and"
Barry: Gottcha, You mean thats why they not gettin it
Ryo: It's not they have not got, its that they have no "and".
Barry: Yeah its the "and" man...................
Ryo: its not like you have not told them it is not "and"
Barry: Yeah i told them, OK its the "and"
Ryo: Did you tell them how they should begin "and"
Barry: Yeah they think "and" is one
Ryo: Did you tell them there is one "and"
Barry: I have always told them
Ryo: Are they all like that?
Barry: No some play "and" good
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Personally, I would like to hear his take on the discussion just a few posts above. In his opinion does BH think of the dim/6 scale as a harmonic device separate from single line improvisation? As noted above, in the DVD BH says he has a "special" scale for playing over "minor". That turns out to be the dim/min6 scale. However, nowhere else (at least in the first set of DVD's) does he seem to use his dim/6/min6 scales for single note lines. Does BH suggest working out changes of a song by playing the dim/min6 scale over the dominant chords (from the important minor) or the dim/maj6 scale over major cords, or even the dim/dom and dim/minb7 scales? Or was that an exception for emphasizing a minor tonal center?
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Yeah I second that
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Before concerning yourself with scales over the chords, it may be best to fully understand the nature of the harmonic movement. Easy Living kicks off with a disguised I-vi-ii-V progression, the same one that you find at the opening of many other tunes, including It Could Happen to You (although the latter changes chords every full rather than half bar). Players will often use this same substitute progression for rhythm changes tunes.
The most straightforward version of a I-vi-ii-V progression in F would be F-D-7-G-7-C7. We often turn the D-7 into a secondary dominant chord, D7 so that it moves more smoothly to the G-7. F#dim7 contains the notes F#-A-C-Eb and these can be heard as the 3rd, 5th, b7th and b9th of a D7b9 chord. In this instance, the Eb in the melody dictates that D7b9 rather than plain D-7 is required if using a VI chord substitute.
Similarly, G#dim7 contains the notes G#-B-D-F and they could be considered the 3rd, 5th, b7th and b9th of a E7b9. The relationship of G#dim7 to C7 is less obvious than the relationship between F#dim7 and D7. It has to do with the chord that follows - Fmaj7/A. This is basically Am with a raised 5th degree (F rather than E) and E7b9 is the dominant of Am.
Your analysis of bars 3 & 4 is correct. By the way, just as Cm7-F7 is basically an elaboration of F7 via its related ii chord, D7b9 and E7b9 can be set up by their own ii chords. Therefore, instead of | F F#dim7 | G-7 G#dim7 | Fmaj7/A, try playing | F / Am7b5 D7b9 | G-7 / Bm7b5 E7b9 | Am7 behind the melody and you'll find that it fits perfectly.
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Ok I'll chime in with the first part.
FMaj7 -> F#Dim -> Gm7
To me F#Dim is just D7b9 chord ([D] - F# - A - C - Eb). So playing FMaj into F# would be my interpretation of BH for FMaj7 -> F#Dim.
EDIT: Sorry, somehow I didn't see BPM's response above when I wrote this. I didn't refresh before writing I guess.Last edited by Tal_175; 07-31-2018 at 09:21 AM.
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f maj to f# dim is Fmajor scale up Originally Posted by nikhilhogan
Hey guys! Thanks for that question, it's great to have this community here.
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on a separate note:
I have a question regarding scales for the ballad Easy Living.. the chart I have has:
A Section
| F Maj7 F#dim7 | Gm7 G#dim7 | Fmaj7/A / Cm7 F7 | BbMaj7 Eb7|
| FMaj7 Dm7 | Gm7 C7 | A+7 D9 | G+7 C9 |
2nd A Section
| F Maj7 F#dim7 | Gm7 G#dim7 | Fmaj7/A / Cm7 F7 | BbMaj7 Eb7 |
| FMaj7 Dm7 | Gm7 C7 | F Bb7 | Ebm7 Ab7 |
B Section
| DbMaj7 Bbm7 | Ebm7 Ab7 | Fm7 Bb7 | Ebm7 Ab7 |
| DbMaj7 Db/C | Bbm7 Bbm7/Ab | Gm7b5 | C7 |
Final A Section
| F Maj7 F#dim7 | Gm7 G#dim7 | Fmaj7/A / Cm7 F7 | BbMaj7 Eb7|
| FMaj7 Dm7 | Gm7 C7 | F | F |
A Section
F Maj to F dim -> is that like F major halfway before changing to Fdim?
Gm7 to G#dim7 -> would that be Gm6dim to G#dim7 in 1 bar? What notes would that look like?
Bar 3 has a 2 beats of F followed by Cm7 to F7, would that be 2 beats of Fmajor and 2 beats of F7?
Bar 4 has IVmaj7 going to bVII7, Bbmaj and then Eb7 in 1 bar?
B Section is relatively straight forward so no issues there
Now, I can understand how to make scale outline for most tunes but here for some reason I can't make a go of it, could use your help!
G-7 to G#dim is c dominant scale up
bar 3 is f dom up
bar 4 Eb dom or c dom up
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tal’s idea of playing from 7th of f down to f # is good
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If you can play over I V turning it into I VI7 IIm V is just a matter of changing one note.
It’s I #Iio7 IIm V7
Now,
I IV
Becomes
I #Io7 II #Iio7
Where you run the dominant scale on the minors down to the sharp root note each time.
I find these moves super elegant and easy to use.
Look at the basic three chord blues and the jazz blues, and run the scale outlines. #IVo7 VI7 is just one note each.
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i get the first part, but for the second measure are you saying c dom down to c#??? that’s interesting, sort of implies c7-gb7. i don’t think id use it for my basic outline though
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I'm a bit confused by this. I had some coffee, but the confusion stayed. I mean I get that #IIo7 (or #Iio7 Originally Posted by christianm77
) subs for IV7. But rest I am not sure.
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Justin Robinson (alto), Rodney Kendrick (piano), William Ash (guitar), Chris Byars (tenor) Originally Posted by nikhilhogan
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I don’t think I made it very clear.
In F, run Bb into Bo7. Gives Gm7 G#o7
Nothin fancy
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oh i see, that's cool! Originally Posted by christianm77
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Here's some basic stuff, i tried to put together, probably not the best explanations but hope you guys find it useful!
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Ask about Barry's Take on Melodic Minor
Last edited by Durban; 07-31-2018 at 05:34 PM. Reason: wrong thread
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Cheers man, would you object if I use your handouts for students? Originally Posted by don_oz
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Originally Posted by christianm77
not at all man! i'd be so glad that they are useful enough for you to hand out to students, presentation could be way better! I appreciate it. I'm also open to feedback, if there's anything wrong or anything I missed. Please let me know!
Cheers,
Oz
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