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Also, that bIIIo7 sound relates to this sort of thing (in F)
F/A | Abm7 Eb7 | Gm7 | C7
Which you see in Blues for Alice and Dance of the Infidels....
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06-16-2018 02:27 PM
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As in going back to the I7?Also he doesn’t play the Eo7 if you listen, even though it’s tempting at that tempo.
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Am7b5 relates to F9, so we run (as Joe said):
Originally Posted by nikhilhogan
F7 down to the third of D7
Eb D C Bb A G F#
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Yes. Originally Posted by N.T
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In Parker’s Mood from Barry’s Maybeck Recital he does play that Edim. Usually on 2nd Bar going back to the one. Originally Posted by christianm77
To me, his solo there is simply perfection
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Cool. I will listen to that when i get a chance. Originally Posted by tamirgal
In Parker’s Mood from Barry’s Maybeck Recital he does play that Edim. Usually on 2nd Bar going back to the one.
To me, his solo there is simply perfection
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Blue Sonny 16:44
Barry uses a lot of the same language in his slow blues.
I dig his sound! And I made a backing track for myself off the first 12 bars.
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Great Album! Wish he had more choruses on this one. But you do get to hear him accompanying Grant Green, how cool is that! Originally Posted by N.T
Are you familiar with this one?
An iconic example of him playing the blues, he takes many choruses, most of which insane. Don’t know anyone playing and sounding like that. Around 4:40 he slows down to a slow blues tempo.
Cheers,
Tamir
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Quick question about running the scales to learn a tune (from the workshop DVDS):
In “How High the Moon” we have a minor 2-5 going to Gm in bar 10. I either missed or didn’t understand the explanation why we use an F7 rather than D7.
I get that D7 and F7 are “siblings”, but the fact that it is done as a matter of course without discussion suggests that this is the preferred way of learning this progression rather than a creative substitution.
Can anyone point me to where that is discussed, or help me with an explanation?
Thanks.
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The F7 scale is the correct scale to use on an A-7b5, because you're treating it like an F9. Dominant is the default scale (we don't don't think modes like Locrian.) Also, that movement of playing a scale and landing on a tone a half step above the tonic should already be familiar because it's used in other situations like C to A7. Plus it sounds great, it's a defining sound of be-bop to me.
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Yes I was going to say an F7 scale maps much better over both of the chords in that turnaround, Am7b5 and D7alt.
A D7 scale would be too ‘straight’, it has none of the altered notes you want to employ.
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You could use D7 alternatively, but it kind of takes you out of the minor key a bit, but you do get lines that do that.... Good example would be Blues for Alice, where the line outlines an A7 dominant scale on Em7b5/A7.
Anyway, that's a little more 'spicy' than running F7 to the third of D7, which is standard for scale outlines.
When building lines, use the F7 language and connect using the diminished (Ao7) into the target Gm chord. It's neat, because there's little difference from playing a line into a Bb. Anyway, have fun.
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Here’s a nice read on this topic:
What is this scale called: Charlie Parker, Barry Harris and the minor ii-V progression | BirdFeed
Cheers
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Perfect! Just the analysis I needed. Thanks! Originally Posted by tamirgal
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When you refer to 7th scales, are you referring to the Dominant Diminished (ie a Dominant 7 with a diminished built on the maj. 7 degree) or plain harmony mixolydian? I see the "Seventh Diminished" listed as the third of four scales in Alan Kingstone's book, but all I can find is Major and Minor 6 Diminished in use. Originally Posted by grahambop
My guess would be that it's a more straightforward V sound (vs the minor 6 diminished on the II, or bVI which) but with added movement? Or good for secondary dominants?
This thread is great. I'll really have to write /play some of this stuff out. Amazing how this fits together, to think I was haphazardly just throwing diminished chords around before.... wow!
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I showed the BirdFeed article to Howard Rees, who pointed out that we are really talking about two scales here, C7 "played into" A7 to outline Em7b5 - A7. This line on the minor ii-V is a particular case of running two related dominants together to outline a chord progression. The general topic is discussed in the first Barry Harris workbook starting at page 21. Originally Posted by tamirgal
I have attached my own chart about running one dominant into another to outline various progressions. Hope this helps.
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It could also be seen as linking the dominant to the target chord via a dim7. This is actually the interpretation I am getting into now, you can bring in the dim7 when ever you like.
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Of course that dim7 can be used as a gateway to any of the other brothers and sisters
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Barry Harris has 2 systems as I understand it, one is for scales i.e. line-playing. I don't know much about that system, but I was just pointing out why a 'single-note' F7 scale might work better when playing a line over those chords, I believe that's the context in which the question was asked. Originally Posted by JustMac
The other Barry system is the 'harmonic method', i.e. all about playing chords and chord movement - this is what Alan Kingstone's book covers. I know more about that system as I have that book, but on this occasion I wasn't talking about the 'sixth/diminished' or '7th/diminished' chord scales.
Can be a bit confusing when the discussion touches on both of these areas!
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I think there is a relationship between Barry Harris's harmonic and single line systems. I haven't digested it all to be too certain about these connections in general. But in this case there might be a satisfying connection between playing F7 into D7 (from his single line system) and they both belonging to Bb major sixth diminished scale (from his harmonic system). Major sixth diminished scales contain both the primary dominant (F7) and the dominant of the relative minor (D7). Originally Posted by grahambop
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
Agreed. And I think that when we talk about "dominants" in line playing, the term can apply broadly to all sorts of scales functioning as dominants, including the 7-note scale built off the fifth of the major scale (along with all its extra-note variants), the diminished as Christian mentioned above, the minor-six-diminished scales on the fifth and flat nine of the dominant, as well as the dominant-diminished and seven-flat-nine diminished scales, each of which tone collection has a different colour. For example:
Various dominant scales (e.g. C7)
[Extra note rules applicable throughout]
All have 3 and b7 in common.
1. C7 scale
C D E F G A Bb
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
2. Tritone (Gb7) scale
Gb Ab Bb B Db Eb E
b5 #5 b7 7 b9 #9 3 [of C7]
3. Gm6dim scale
(assume applicable from Gm6=C7 and tritone's minor use)
G A Bb C D Eb E Gb
5 6 b7 1 2 #9 3 b5 [of C7]
3. Tritone's minor (Dbm6dim) scale (altered scale)
Db Eb E Gb Ab A Bb C [of C7]
b9 #9 3 b5 #5 6 b7 1
4. C7dim scale (C7 + Bdim - dim of dominant)
C D E F G Ab Bb B
1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7 7
5. Db diminished scale from C (Db7 + Bbdim - dim of tritone)
C Db Eb E F# G A Bb
1 b9 #9 3 b5 5 6 b7
6. Gb7dim scale (tritone) = Gb7 + Bbdim
Gb Ab Bb B Db D E F
b5 b6 b7 7 b9 9 3 4 (of C7)
Notes found on one or more of these scales:
C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab A Bb B -- i.e., all of them
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Of course it's all connected, but I think Graham was pointing at a misconception among people who are just dipping their toes in so to speak. I think it's common for people to see the 6th dim scales and think "Ok cool, I have the 'Barry Harris' thing down." and then they apply that stuff to building their lines. Of course you can get good stuff that way-- it's just not how Barry Harris teaches it. And how he teaches it is better.
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I advise people to put the two things in separate draws for a bit lest they get confused by the superficial similarity between the maj6 and one of the possible added note major scale possibilities.
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Aren't both of these consequences of the Diminished centric world view inherent in at least parts of BH system? Originally Posted by christianm77
EDIT: OK scratch that. I didn't read this carefully initially. Connection I'm referring to is of different nature. I agree that added notes and maj6dim are separate things.Last edited by Tal_175; 07-05-2018 at 10:59 PM.
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I only have the Howard Reese DVD to go by, having never taken a lesson or even heard BH live, but I feel there must be a reason he has people learn changes by playing the standard heptatonic maj scale up and down and not his octotonic maj/dim scale. Originally Posted by Tal_175
It is a constant source of confusion, and I wish someone would put it to him directly. Perhaps they have and the answer is out there. Why does he teach the maj scale over changes? What place does his Maj6/dim scale have in single line improvisation? How do we marry the Maj6/dim and Min6/dim scales with the maj and dominant scale exercises and his “fill” rules for descending lines?
Have these questions been answered directly somewhere?
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