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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    So, I had this idea to see if I could pull phrases similar to the 5-4-3-2 that can be jumbled and re-worked in the same way. I looked at a random solo in the Charlie Parker Omnibook (the first one) and was able to find little 2 beat or so phrases that start on each degree of the scale. I can't wait to try it out! Seems like it could lead to some cool stuff.
    I am very interested in seeing/hearing what you come up with.

    I have to say that these short one or two beat phrases is what caught my attention. They really seemed to be the "words" of the bebop language, whereas there is a lot out there on the "grammar". I haven't been playing jazz long, but I had not seen anything like it in any other learning source.

    There is a lot of this kind of information for building Blues solos out of just the minor pentatonic. For eg, the ubiquitous chromatic 5-6b-6-R-3b(...hold with bend...)-R. But most of what I've come across for bebop has been in the form of two to four measure ideas or discussions about triads and making the changes (all very valuable in its own right, just not this component).

    Any more information on this in particular, or where I could get these ideas more in detail from BH or one of his disciples specifically about the concept of these mini bebop "words" would be great! From the previews it does not seem to be addressed specifically by Roni, Pasquale, or Alan. Perhaps it just seems too basic to even cover, but for a bop neophyte learning these very essential phrases (and hearing them actually played to tempo in context) is a huge leg up.

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  3. #102
    I'll eventually have to have these as well. Honestly, Barry Harris is probably worth watching even if you don't play. Always love hearing him talk about the music.

  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    I have to say that these short one or two beat phrases is what caught my attention. They really seemed to be the "words" of the bebop language, whereas there is a lot out there on the "grammar". I haven't been playing jazz long, but I had not seen anything like it in any other learning source.

    There is a lot of this kind of information for building Blues solos out of just the minor pentatonic. For eg, the ubiquitous chromatic 5-6b-6-R-3b(...hold with bend...)-R. But most of what I've come across for bebop has been in the form of two to four measure ideas or discussions about triads and making the changes (all very valuable in its own right, just not this component).

    Any more information on this in particular, or where I could get these ideas more in detail from BH or one of his disciples specifically about the concept of these mini bebop "words" would be great! From the previews it does not seem to be addressed specifically by Roni, Pasquale, or Alan. Perhaps it just seems too basic to even cover, but for a bop neophyte learning these very essential phrases (and hearing them actually played to tempo in context) is a huge leg up.
    I would say that Barry's approach is not about plugging licks together to build a whole solo. I am looking at the workbook for the first DVD set as I type this. Barry states that the '5-4-3-2' phrases are handy "to get out of trouble'. He might use them to end or begin a line or to connect scale or arpeggio material. There are examples on combining the phrases with each other and with scales - one simple example would be to play C major from root to fifth then play the '5' phrase.

    There are certainly phrases and stylistic devices associated with bebop. As mentioned above, the Charlie Parker Omnibook is chock full of them and NSJ gave a great example at post #5. A good, guitar-focused primer would be Bruce Forman's bebop guitar video at MyMusicMasterClass. $18 for the download.


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  5. #104

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    Re 1st Barry Harris video:


    Best moment: 'Rhythm is our most important thing'.

    Re the rest: Though I love few people more than Mr. Harris, I was a 'dropout' b/c I don't think scales, but melodies. I also couldn't quite keep up w/his fast instructions, i.e. 'play the 5th going up to----then come back down on this beat' etc. I simply cannot process info that quickly, then realize it immediately in a tactile way.

    What I did get being around Barry (mostly in the '80s-'90s) was when he talked about the songs. Not bebop heads, songs. It was a bit of a drag whoever edited this didn't let A Time For Love play out. I would have liked to hear what he 'said' on certain chords. Also like his ballads touch.

    We had some good times back at the JCT playing songs. I remember one afternoon just him and me there, Barry sitting at a front piano and me calling titles. I remember he played Flamingo for me, and always dug my taste in tunes. We had a big band, too. Barry was a natural arranger and had good charts on Wave (sung by Audrey Blandings, now Checere (sp?) ), and his own Nascimento. When we had gigs Barry, Audrey and another singer, Jean Hanna, used to make up hilarious blues lyrics on the spot.

    Like I said, good times. With a great man...

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by fasstrack View Post
    Re 1st Barry Harris video:


    Best moment: 'Rhythm is our most important thing'.

    Re the rest: Though I love few people more than Mr. Harris, I was a 'dropout' b/c I don't think scales, but melodies. I also couldn't quite keep up w/his fast instructions, i.e. 'play the 5th going up to----then come back down on this beat' etc. I simply cannot process info that quickly, then realize it immediately in a tactile way.
    Yeah I know what you mean actually - I'm a slow info processor as well, always struggled to keep up in the class. I've got a lot out of the material in my own practice room.

    I got the impression a lot of the guys had worked on the DVD before going to the class. This was mid noughties....

    I do like that the material is practiced at tempo. Slow practice is great, but sometimes it's good to just play things at tempo. I just need a lot of practice getting used to running things like that... but maybe it sinks in deeper (that's what I tell myself haha)

    What I did get being around Barry (mostly in the '80s-'90s) was when he talked about the songs. Not bebop heads, songs. It was a bit of a drag whoever edited this didn't let A Time For Love play out. I would have liked to hear what he 'said' on certain chords. Also like his ballads touch.

    We had some good times back at the JCT playing songs. I remember one afternoon just him and me there, Barry sitting at a front piano and me calling titles. I remember he played Flamingo for me, and always dug my taste in tunes. We had a big band, too. Barry was a natural arranger and had good charts on Wave (sung by Audrey Blandings, now Checere (sp?) ), and his own Nascimento. When we had gigs Barry, Audrey and another singer, Jean Hanna, used to make up hilarious blues lyrics on the spot.

    Like I said, good times. With a great man...
    Yes, the vocal class is always cool - so different from the impov and harmony classes, and a shame that more instrumentalists don't hang around for that.
    Last edited by christianm77; 10-04-2016 at 07:49 AM.

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by fasstrack View Post
    You know Sheryl (BailEY, BTW) is my friend and neighbor, a very sweet gal and hell of a guitar player, but I'm not sure I like that title so much. It sort of sounds like 'in so-and-so steps you will master such-and-such'. No such animal.Probably she didn't quite mean it that way.

    Knowing Sheryl and the quality of her playing and teaching I know the content is worthwhile, but that title? I just don't know...
    Stuff like that is often a marketing gimmick that the publishers come up with. Back in the early 2000s I wrote a bunch of computer books, and the publishers always wanted the books to fit into an existing series. So I wrote a "...For Dummies" book, a "...Visual Quick Start Guide", a "Mastering..." etc. etc. None of that stuff was my idea. It was always about branding.

    There's a local guy around here - Thaddeus Hogarth. He plays funky R&B type stuff, but he uses a real jazzy approach to pentatonics (not all that different from Jerry Bergonzi's stuff). So he wrote a book about that. But the publisher (Berklee Press, I think - he teaches at Berklee) wouldn't let him call it that. It had to be "R&B Guitar" or some such thing.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  8. #107
    There are certainly phrases and stylistic devices associated with bebop. As mentioned above, the Charlie Parker Omnibook is chock full of them and NSJ gave a great example at post #5. A good, guitar-focused primer would be Bruce Forman's bebop guitar video at MyMusicMasterClass. $18 for the download.
    I'm glad you pointed to Charlie parker's OmniBook i think this is of the main direction this study group should be heading , like analysing devices , making exercises from a cool devices in all keys etc !
    The Barry harris 54321 system althought cool but i get the impression it's just another attempt to shortcut the Bebop language ! the best place to start IMHO is Charlie parker and bud powell ! So i hope the more experienced guys here would inlighten us more about the Omni book and how to work on it !

    I realy likeed the preview of forman's Bebop video , sounds like i'll buy it , althought i just got grasso's one which is wealth of information too !

  9. #108

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    lol can you imagine...

    I don't know what I would do if I wrote a book about a chunk of my playing style that took a lifetime to develop and the publisher be like, "Nah, it's called guitar for complete n00bs"
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  10. #109

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    [QUOTE=mooncef;699281] So i hope the more experienced guys here would inlighten us more about the Omni book and how to work on it !

    QUOTE]

    time for me to shutup haha
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  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by mooncef View Post
    The Barry harris 54321 system althought cool but i get the impression it's just another attempt to shortcut the Bebop language !
    Seems less like a "shortcut" than a way of codifying and organizing it. And of course, it's only one aspect of what BH teaches.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  12. #111
    time for me to shutup haha

    Nahh man you are Helping a lot , i meant but experienced guys (anyone except me) haha

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe View Post
    Seems less like a "shortcut" than a way of codifying and organizing it. And of course, it's only one aspect of what BH teaches.
    I didn't mean to diss the framework , but it's just uncomplete to me unless i get those barry harris DVD's ! i'm in a stage where i should get the language from transcribing and listening , a new system would hurt me !
    Last edited by mooncef; 10-04-2016 at 08:31 AM.

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    lol can you imagine...

    I don't know what I would do if I wrote a book about a chunk of my playing style that took a lifetime to develop and the publisher be like, "Nah, it's called guitar for complete n00bs"
    That's the reality of the publishing business. The other sad reality is (and believe me, this is experience talking), unless it's a best seller, you'll be working for less than minimum wage.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  14. #113

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    Hey I just want to clarify something:

    The 5-4-3-2 isn't a major component of the Barry Harris system; it's almost like an aside. Like someone above said (I think David?), he says they're just little things to "get you out of trouble." If you bought the dvds just for the 5-4-3-2 stuff you'd be disappointed as there's very little beyond what was already discussed here. I DO whole-heartedly recommend the DVDs though, as the other stuff is all just as good.
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  15. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by mooncef View Post
    I'm glad you pointed to Charlie parker's OmniBook i think this is of the main direction this study group should be heading , like analysing devices , making exercises from a cool devices in all keys etc !
    The Barry harris 54321 system althought cool but i get the impression it's just another attempt to shortcut the Bebop language ! the best place to start IMHO is Charlie parker and bud powell ! So i hope the more experienced guys here would inlighten us more about the Omni book and how to work on it !
    I find that some of Parker's lines are hard to make sense of when read straight from the Omnibook, but in most of his solos there are 2 or 3 phrases which are just pure bebop, totally logical and make sense immediately. So I have been circling those phrases in pencil, with a view to revisiting and playing them later and trying to learn from them. (I have only done about half the book so far).

    I thought this would be more productive than wading through the whole lot, then reaching the end and being unable to remember any of it!

  16. #115

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    Cool Graham, sounds like what I'm doing!
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  17. #116

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    I find birds music makes more sense when I learn it by ear

  18. #117

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    I have also found it very beneficial over the years to listen to Dexter Gordon, as he plays phrases which are generally simpler and slower than Parker, so easier to 'hear'. On ballads, he plays essentially the same stuff but at snail pace, so even better!

  19. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by mooncef View Post
    So i hope the more experienced guys here would inlighten us more about the Omni book and how to work on it !
    I'm certainly not experienced - just a long-time student. I'll defer to Mike Outram, one of the finest guitarists and teachers here, who wrote this introduction to using the omnibook as a practice tool - How to Use the Charlie Parker Omnibook as a Practice Tool - Online Guitar Lessons
    Last edited by David B; 10-04-2016 at 09:34 AM.

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  20. #119

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    About that Barry Harris Workshop DVD (priced around 100 USD). I'm hearing it's worth it. I mean really, really worth it. Right?
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    About that Barry Harris Workshop DVD (priced around 100 USD). I'm hearing it's worth it. I mean really, really worth it. Right?
    It's a four DVD + book set.
    The following areas are highlighted, each presented in a ‘clinic’ setting:
    The ABC’s of the jazz vocabulary

    The opening section features an in-depth examination of scales and deals with the topic of both what and how to practice. Approx. 60 mins.
    Application of the above to key song forms

    Presented here are methods of turning scales into unlimited sources of improvisational ideas- applied to the blues, rhythm changes, Cherokee, Indiana and How High The Moon. Approx. 60 mins.
    Movable Chords for the piano and guitar

    Barry’s unique approach to chord voicing and movement is outlined here demonstrated on several standards. Approx. 45 mins.
    Focus on the Rhythm Section

    Here, accompaniment is addressed, along with the function and interaction of each instrument in the rhythm section. Approx. 45 mins.
    Vocalizing

    Key points for the vocalist including warm-ups, phrasing, breathing, improvising and presentation are demonstrated and applied to a beautiful ballad. Approx. 45 mins.
    Chapter 1: The Basics

    • Foreword
    • Scale practice or “the ABC’s”
    • Expanatory Notes
    • The Harris Half-Step Practice Model
    • The Dominant 7th Scale Half-Step Rules
    • The Major Scale Half-Step Rules
    • The Minor Scale Half-Step Rules
    • Chromatic Scale Breakdown Chart
    • The Diminished Chord and its 4 ‘Related’ Dominant 7ths
    • The Diminished Scale
    • Related Dominant 7th Scales = Chord Movements
    • The Minor7 Flat5 Chord
    • The ‘5-4-3-2’ Phrases
    • ‘5-4-3-2’ on the Major Scale
    • ‘5-4-3-2’ on the Dominant 7th Scale
    • ‘5-4-3-2’ on the Minor Scale

    Chapter 2: Applications

    • Foreword
    • “Back Home In Indiana” by MacDonald/Hanley
    • Scale Outline of (Back Home In) “Indiana”
    • Scale Outline of ‘The Blues’ in C
    • A Typical ‘Blues’ Progression
    • Application of Scale Ideas to ‘The Blues’
    • The ‘Related Diminished Chord’
    • ‘Rhythm Changes’
    • Scale Outline of ‘Rhythm Changes’
    • The ‘Important Minor’
    • Application of Scale Ideas to ‘Rhythm Changes’
    • “Anthropology” by Charlie Parker
    • “Cherokee” by Ray Noble
    • Scale Outline of the “Cherokee” Bridge
    • Application of Scale Ideas to the “Cherokee” Bridge
    • “How High The Moon” by Morgan Lewis
    • Scale Outline of “How High The Moon”
    • The ‘Minor 6 Diminished Scale’
    • Scale Practice on the G Minor 6 Diminished Scale
    • Application of Scale Ideas to “How High The Moon”

    Chapter 3: Moveable Chords for Piano and Guitar

    • Foreword
    • The C6 Diminished Scale
    • The C6 Diminished Scale with Chord Voicings for Piano
    • The C6 Diminished Scale with Chord Voicings for Guitar
    • The C6 Diminished Scale in Single Notes
    • Guitar Fingering for the C6 Diminished Scale
    • The C6 Diminished Scale in Contrary Motion
    • The C Minor 6 Diminished Scale
    • The C Minor 6 Diminished Scale Performed Up and Down
    • Chords Found on the C Minor 6 Diminished Scale
    • “Alone Together” by Dietz/Schwartz
    • “Body and Soul” by Green
    • ‘The Tritone’s Minor’
    • Re-thinking the m7 and the m7b5 Chords
    • Moving Am7 on the C6 Diminished Scale
    • Moving a Voicing Through the C Major Scale
    • Moving a Voicing Through the C6 Diminished Scale
    • The 6 Diminished Scale Contains Two Dominant 7th Chords
    • Ending a Tune with Movements on the 6 Diminished Scale
    • Extending the Previous Idea Through 4 Keys
    • Using the C6 Diminished Scale on II-V-I in G Major
    • Using the C Minor 6 Diminished Scale on II-V-I in G
    • ‘Borrowed Notes’
    • Based on “Django” by John Lewis
    • Based on “If I Should Lose You” by Robin/Rainger
    • Based on “In Your Own Sweet Way” by Dave Brubeck
    • ‘Major – Minor – Minor/6’
    • Applied to “Stella by Starlight” by Young/Washington
    • Applied to “Like Someone In Love” by van Heusen/Burke
    • Applied to “I Remember You” by Schertzinger/Mercer
    • Applied to “Stella by Starlight” with Guitar Voicings
    • The 4 Related Dominant 7ths Used as V7 Substitutions

    Chapter 4: The Rhythm Section

    • Foreword
    • “Straight, No Chaser” by Thelonious Monk
    • Walking Bass Patterns Emphasizing the Upbeat
    • The Whole Rhythm Section Demonstrating the Previous Rhythms
    • Rhythm Highlighting the ‘2+’ and the ‘4+’
    • Rhythm Highlighting the ‘1+’ and the ‘4+’
    • Using Longer Valued Tied Notes in the Walking Bass Line

    Chapter 5: Vocalizing

    • Foreword
    • “You Must Believe In Spring” by Michel Legrand
    • The E Diminished Chord with Applications to “Y.M.B. in S.”
    • Warm-up Exercises
    • Application of the Warm-ups to “Y.M.B. in S.”
    • Use of the Related Diminished Chord in the 1st 4 Bars of “Y.M.B. in S.”
    • “Billie’s Bounce” by Charlie Parker


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  22. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Yeah I know what you mean actually - I'm a slow info processor as well, always struggled to keep up in the class. I've got a lot out of the material in my own practice room.
    It's stuff like this that got me to initially go back to really having fundamentals down and the fretboard together more. These teachers talk about playing something in terms of it being "simple", and you get the feeling that it mostly IS for horns or keyboardists etc. Meanwhile, I always had to take the extra step of actually figuring out where things were in a really basic way first, especially for certain positions.

    Anyway, your previous posts on the Harris material has really shaped the way I've practiced a lot of these technical things the last few months, and much of it comes down to rhythmic focus I picked up from some of your examples. When the rhythmic structure is fairly constant, at least in the beginning, it simplifies a lot of technical issues, especially with the right hand, at least for me.

    For example, I've been working four-note arpeggios in two octaves, four inversions. By actually addressing them as inversions and always starting/ending on the same string/finger, the right-hand is mostly the same for all. I found my right-hand technique is actually much better than I ever thought it was. I was simply dealing with too many variables with new material, before. I would say that my right-hand technique is exponentially better at playing RANDOM patterns, ironically, as a result of practicing a lot of CONSTANT patterns, both in terms of fretboard layout, and right hand.

    Thanks for the videos and posts on this BTW. I find Harris's focus on rhythm in learning these rudiments to be really key to its appeal. I'll have to check the videos out soon.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 10-04-2016 at 10:13 AM.

  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    For example, I've been working four-note arpeggios in two octaves, four inversions. By actually addressing them as inversions and always starting/ending on the same string/finger, the right-hand is mostly the same for all.
    Can you elaborate on this?
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  24. #123
    This is kind of a Reg thing.

    G Maj 7, G to G, from 2nd finger/ third fret (to 1st string G and back).

    Then, B to B 2nd finger/7 th fret...

    D To D, 2nd finger...

    F# 2nd (or 3rd)

    Anyway, that B to B is a definite reg-specific kind of fingering, but makes a lot of sense kinesthetically, if you already know that scale fingering and work these inversions.

    One thing that's interesting, is that if you work them as straight two octaves patterns, you can pretty easily slide up to the next position and continue without breaking stride, rhythmically/melodically, esp.because of the common finger. And of course, the right hand thing is really a huge benefit.

    I've been doing some simple targeting patterns from the Richie Zellon exercises last couple of weeks. One component I felt was really missing in those exercises was a kind of rhythmic continuity. If you're targeting thirds and sevenths, for example. you play one pattern, and there's a kind of rhythmic pattern where the thirds and sevenths land. When you go to a new position and start from the lowest possible note, it often breaks that rhythmic pattern. Limiting to two octaves and always starting with second finger makes it really easy to Hanon-ize these kind of things.

    Probably should do a video on this. It doesn't make any sense in text. I'm really just learning this stuff myself, but it's very compelling. Feels a lot more like things you would do in beginning piano or saxophone etc.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 10-04-2016 at 02:35 PM.

  25. #124

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    Matt, if I can do a video to share what I know, anyone can. What I mean is you don't have to be Reg or even close to share your thoughts. I'd be interested the video
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  26. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    This is kind of a Reg thing.

    G Maj 7, G to G, from 2nd finger/ third fret (to 1st string G and back).

    Then, B to B 2nd finger/7 th fret...

    D To D, 2nd finger...

    F# 2nd (or 3rd)

    Anyway, that B to B is a definite reg-specific kind of fingering, but makes a lot of sense kinesthetically, if you already know that scale fingering and work these inversions.

    One thing that's interesting, is that if you work them as straight two octaves patterns, you can pretty easily slide up to the next position and continue without breaking stride, rhythmically/melodically, esp.because of the common finger. And of course, the right hand thing is really a huge benefit.

    I've been doing some simple targeting patterns from the Richie Zellon exercises last couple of weeks. One component I felt was really missing in those exercises was a kind of rhythmic continuity. If you're targeting thirds and sevenths, for example. you play one pattern, and there's a kind of rhythmic pattern where the thirds and sevenths land. When you go to a new position and start from the lowest possible note, it often breaks that rhythmic pattern. Limiting to two octaves and always starting with second finger makes it really easy to Hanon-ize these kind of things.

    Probably should do a video on this. It doesn't make any sense in text. I'm really just learning this stuff myself, but it's very compelling. Feels a lot more like things you would do in beginning piano or saxophone etc.

    I think I get the idea. Sounds like a good exercise.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  27. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Yeah I know what you mean actually - I'm a slow info processor as well, always struggled to keep up in the class. I've got a lot out of the material in my own practice room.

    I got the impression a lot of the guys had worked on the DVD before going to the class. This was mid noughties....

    I do like that the material is practiced at tempo. Slow practice is great, but sometimes it's good to just play things at tempo. I just need a lot of practice getting used to running things like that... but maybe it sinks in deeper (that's what I tell myself haha)



    Yes, the vocal class is always cool - so different from the impov and harmony classes, and a shame that more instrumentalists don't hang around for that.
    He always said 'get out of it what you can'.

    He has to deal with people around all the time---and all that infers...

  28. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe View Post
    Stuff like that is often a marketing gimmick that the publishers come up with.
    I think that's true. I also think it can help those who want TrueFire to put out a video of them: "50 Licks" is a good way to organize a proposal. (There are also some 30-Lick courses, which are usually aimed at beginners. Not necessarily beginning players but people new to a certain style. Fareed Haque's "30 Beginner Jazz Guitar Licks You MUST Know" is a nice batch of lessons, though if you're not a beginner, you probably already know many of them.)

    You know what you're getting if you order a "50 Licks" course. That's not a bad thing.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  29. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by David B View Post
    Roni's book is excellent and one of the few that I work with regularly. It's based on Barry's teachings and includes a number of topics that you'll encounter in BH's materials - the rules for adding half-steps to scales, enclosures (surrounding notes), the sixth diminished scales in single-note form etc.
    I have Roni's "Talk Guitar" book. Unfortunately, the CD was broken during shipping. I emailed Roni and he allowed me to download the sound files from a Dropbox account. So I have them but I've never worked with them. Maybe I'll find the flash drive they're on and transfer them to a CD. (I don't like to have the computer on when practicing--too distracting.)

    Maybe I should work with this for awhile before ordering the DVD.

    By the way, does anyone know why Roni named the book that, "Talk Guitar"? It makes no sense to me and I keep thinking I'm missing an obvious reference.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  30. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    Hey I just want to clarify something:

    The 5-4-3-2 isn't a major component of the Barry Harris system; it's almost like an aside. Like someone above said (I think David?), he says they're just little things to "get you out of trouble." If you bought the dvds just for the 5-4-3-2 stuff you'd be disappointed as there's very little beyond what was already discussed here. I DO whole-heartedly recommend the DVDs though, as the other stuff is all just as good.
    Another thing Barry talks about in terms of 'getting out of trouble' is the descending chromatic major scale. It's basically a major scale with all the added passing tones. The important distinction between his version and a simple descending chromatic that you is double back to a scale tone on a higher degree wherever a semitone naturally occurs in the major scale.

    For example, in F major the semitone occurs between F & E and then between Bb & A. So the descending chromatic F major scale would look like this:

    F-(G)-E-Eb-D-Db-C-B-Bb-(C)-A-Ab-G-Gb-F.

    Here it is as an extended possible ii-V-I line from various degrees of the scale:

    bebop language study group ?-chromatic-major-scale-jpg

  31. #130

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    Sorry to post this again, but it might be relevant... My thoughts on the rhythmic structure of bop lines being related to the clave. What do you think?


  32. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB View Post
    Another thing Barry talks about in terms of 'getting out of trouble' is the descending chromatic major scale. It's basically a major scale with all the added passing tones. The important distinction between his version and a simple descending chromatic that you is double back to a scale tone on a higher degree wherever a semitone naturally occurs in the major scale.
    I did not know this. Thanks!
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
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  33. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Sorry to post this again, but it might be relevant... My thoughts on the rhythmic structure of bop lines being related to the clave. What do you think?

    Very interesting. I think you made your case convincingly.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  34. #133

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    Well, as it happens, I got a little loot for my birthday and ordered the Barry Harris Workshop DVD (-the first one) from Aebersold. They've already shipped it!

    If I'm not a jazz god by Christmas, you're all in trouble! ;o) Kidding, of course. Looking forward to getting a handle on what Barry teaches. I've learned bits and pieces but I can't say I have a feel for incorporating it in my practice and performances. Time to plunge into the deep.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  35. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    Well, as it happens, I got a little loot for my birthday and ordered the Barry Harris Workshop DVD (-the first one) from Aebersold. They've already shipped it!

    If I'm not a jazz god by Christmas, you're all in trouble! ;o) Kidding, of course. Looking forward to getting a handle on what Barry teaches. I've learned bits and pieces but I can't say I have a feel for incorporating it in my practice and performances. Time to plunge into the deep.
    Look forward to hearing about it.

  36. #135

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    Mark- did you check out the dvd yet? You interested in a study-group thread? Anyone else? I'm working on the basic scale outline for Indiana. I'm very used to slow-medium tempos, so this has been a good one to build up some speed. Trying to play through the tune with the scale outline at 187 bpm with some of the 5-4-3-2 phrases thrown in at different places along the way. Next I'll do the same with the various patterns of chromatics and arps etc...
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  37. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    Mark- did you check out the dvd yet? You interested in a study-group thread? Anyone else? I'm working on the basic scale outline for Indiana. I'm very used to slow-medium tempos, so this has been a good one to build up some speed. Trying to play through the tune with the scale outline at 187 bpm with some of the 5-4-3-2 phrases thrown in at different places along the way. Next I'll do the same with the various patterns of chromatics and arps etc...
    Hi Joe,
    You've inspired me to do a video on Indiana a la Barry this weekend. It's been a long time since I played in front of a camera. I'll post it here.

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  38. #137

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    Thanks David!!!
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  39. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    Mark- did you check out the dvd yet? You interested in a study-group thread? Anyone else? I'm working on the basic scale outline for Indiana. I'm very used to slow-medium tempos, so this has been a good one to build up some speed. Trying to play through the tune with the scale outline at 187 bpm with some of the 5-4-3-2 phrases thrown in at different places along the way. Next I'll do the same with the various patterns of chromatics and arps etc...
    The DVD hasn't arrived yet. Should be here tomorrow (Thursday, 13 October.) Tracking info hasn't been updated since 3 A.M. Sunday, though. The hurricane disrupted normal service somewhere along the way...

    I would be interested in a study-group, yes. Lots of people have been studying Barry's approach for a long time now and could help those of us newer to it to get off on the right foot. Might inspire a few others to jump in too.

    It would be useful to have a single thread for a lot of Barry Harris info to be gathered.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  40. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by David B View Post
    Hi Joe,
    You've inspired me to do a video on Indiana a la Barry this weekend. It's been a long time since I played in front of a camera. I'll post it here.
    Great, David, I look forward to that.

    And to everyone here, David B is a great spirit with a generous heart and we are blessed to have him among us!
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  41. #140

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    Is this Alan Kingstone's book/cd?
    "Ahhh - those Jazz guys are just makin' that stuff up!" - Homer Simpson

    "Anyone who understands Jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it." - Yogi Berra

  42. #141

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    Just collating in one post here the various materials available from Barry Harris and his students:

    Barry Harris 4DVD/book set (1): The Barry Harris Workshop Video ? Howard Rees' Jazz Workshops
    Barry Harris 4DVD/book set (2): The Barry Harris Workshop Video Part 2 ? Howard Rees' Jazz Workshops

    'The Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar' by Alan Kingstone: The Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar ? Howard Rees' Jazz Workshops

    'Talk Jazz Guitar' by Roni Ben-Hur: Roni Ben-Hur - Talk Jazz: Guitar

    'Chordability' DVD by Roni Ben-Hur: Roni Ben-Hur - Chordability

    Pasquale Grasso's four video lessons at www.mymusicmasterclass.com : https://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/a...squale-grasso/

    Roni Ben-Hur's two 'Anatomy of a Tune' video lessons at Mike's Master Classes:
    'How High the Moon' : Anatomy of a Tune - Be-bop Style | Lesson by Roni Ben-Hur | Mike's Master Classes
    'Confirmation' : Confirmation | Lesson by Roni Ben-Hur | Mike's Master Classes

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  43. #142

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    I started a Barry Harris thread: Official Barry Harris Thread
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  44. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    By the way, does anyone know why Roni named the book that, "Talk Guitar"? It makes no sense to me and I keep thinking I'm missing an obvious reference.
    I know this is an old post (hope you haven't been losing sleep over this question!), but I did come across this answer, so for what it's worth:

    "RONI BEN-HUR: If you play Jazz right, you talk Jazz. The book is called Talk Jazz because it deals directly with the language and the vocabulary of the Jazz world. It comes to help students get acquainted with the vocabulary, with specific ways of playing things that sound in the Jazz idiom, just theoretical concept but actual musical sentences." (refer to Tomajazz – Roni Ben-Hur: Expanding the tradition, by Sergio Cabanillas and Arturo Mora)

  45. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    I spent a year trying to improvise using certain lines I learned from the David Baker books, only to realise I didn't really like them! I eventually turned them into something I did like. That said, in the early days, there is still much to be learned from analysing what makes the old cliches tick.
    I've been slogging my way through David Baker's How to Play Bebop vol. 2 and agree that there are very few licks, phrases and turnarounds that I like well enough to memorize. That said, I've benefited quite a bit from the book in terms of stretching my ear trying to understand how a lot of the examples relate to the underlying cadences. Most times they still don't make sense to me, but I'm better for the effort. Occasionally I'll change one note in an example and all of a sudden it sounds better and makes more sense. So while I haven't really gotten that much from the book to use directly, I've noticed that applying various modes of melodic and harmonic minor has become more intuitive for me, which has gotten me closer to what I set out to learn in the first place.

  46. #145

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    I've only started posting again recently, but I feel like I've picked up where I've left off 4 years ago...

    Many of these posts miss something vital that Barry is doing

    He's singing his lines because they've been internalized in his hands AND (most importantly) his ear


    I really like what fasstrack said about melody.

    And listen to what Chris77 said about learning bebop heads--by ear.

    The theory is important, yes.

    But you have to hear the language to really use it in your own lines in a convincing manner. That means hearing the articulations, hearing the dynamics, and hearing all the rests that punctuate the lines (especially the rests).

    So sing, hum, whistle. Do something to get the lines out without your instrument first. Then go back to your axe. I think that you'll realize huge concepts that you'd never gleam just by focusing on the mechanics of your instrument alone.

  47. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    I've only started posting again recently, but I feel like I've picked up where I've left off 4 years ago...

    Many of these posts miss something vital that Barry is doing

    He's singing his lines because they've been internalized in his hands AND (most importantly) his ear


    I really like what fasstrack said about melody.

    And listen to what Chris77 said about learning bebop heads--by ear.

    The theory is important, yes.

    But you have to hear the language to really use it in your own lines in a convincing manner. That means hearing the articulations, hearing the dynamics, and hearing all the rests that punctuate the lines (especially the rests).

    So sing, hum, whistle. Do something to get the lines out without your instrument first. Then go back to your axe. I think that you'll realize huge concepts that you'd never gleam just by focusing on the mechanics of your instrument alone.
    Correct imo

    90% of the bop language comes from the rhythmic phrases. (That itself is closely related to speech, especially the vernacular of the time, people and place.) That is also the key thing that differentiates it from the swing music that came before.

    The melody is the second thing. The harmony is often more of afterthought than you’d think. But melody is a lot easier when you know what the rhythm is. And the harmonic side can be simplified down to allow the rhythm and melody to be as free and creative as possible. Bop has more in common with modal jazz than it might at first appear.

    Dizzy put it this way - ‘find a rhythm and hang some notes on it’

    Because we are not living in NYC in the 1950s immersion in the recorded music is terribly important. Aside from that I am currently working on a teaching resource (for my postgrad) which comes up with rhythmic phrases that I will share with the forum for C&C if i can work a good way of putting it online.

  48. #147

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    Bebop, I agree, is a very rhythmic language, it's angular, asymmetrical, unpredictable and seemingly random to the uninitiated. If you wanna learn that language then a lot of time must be spent grokking that aspect.

    But here's the thing, I personally feel that when people say they want to investigate Jazz language and vocab and they get directed to Bebop, I reckon they're more interested in the melodic/harmonic DNA of the lines than they are in the rhythmic aspect.

    Let's face it, straight ahead or Hard Bop is more popular these days (well, since 1955 really!) than strict Bebop, no one really plays strict Bebop and very few people actually like it. People would rather play and listen to Hard Bop styled lines, or Post Bop, Modal and later styles. all of which feature much less irregular rhythms. For example, compare Charlie Parker to Jackie Maclean from the late 50's onwards. He's playing simplified versions of Bird lines in longer flowing lines and it sounds cool, any Jackie Mac fan out there will get where I'm coming from.

    This is not to say it's a progression, or it's "better", it's just easier to dig, tap your foot to, groove along with etc. I'd also wager that most on this forum will confess that they find it more enjoyable to listen to Pat Martino playing long streams of 8th notes than to listen to the stop/start, choppy phrasing from a bop stalwart like Tal Farlow.

    Just trying to restore some balance to this discussion, I simply can't let the assertion that "Rhythm is everything" go unchallenged...
    Last edited by princeplanet; 04-08-2019 at 12:11 PM.

  49. #148

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    are the barry harris DVDs available for purchase where you can download them digitally? doesn't seem like it but maybe I'm missing something.

  50. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald View Post
    are the barry harris DVDs available for purchase where you can download them digitally? doesn't seem like it but maybe I'm missing something.
    Dont think they are.
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  51. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post

    He's singing his lines because they've been internalized in his hands AND (most importantly) his ear

    A lot of the times when pianists (or bassists) are groaning they are not really singing their lines. If you listen to the noises you'll agree If they are signing their lines than they are completely tone-deaf. But they aren't of course. The noises may follow the melodic curve but they are not hitting the pitches. Most of the time they aren't even trying to sing the right pitches.
    There are some theories as to why some players grunt and groan. Most likely explanation is that it's a rhythmic concentration thing. It could also be related to the physicalities of the demands of playing the instrument at challenging tempos (like athletes do) etc.
    There are players who (sometimes) sing their lines. It could be practice habits but some of them I think do in the hopes of being taken more seriously as musicians (ie think 20 year old jazz students in jam sessions). But groaning is different and of course that's not why Keith Jarrett and other masters groan.
    It's very important I think to sing what you play in the practice room. I benefit enormously from that. But to do that when people are listening to you play can look phony. Although groaning is different I have to say it still annoys me just as much as when Maria Sharapova does it Not a show stopper though.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 04-08-2019 at 01:21 PM.