Looking for a systematic guitar improvisation course

**Sean65** · 08-26-2016, 03:56 PM

Hi Guys,

I've noticed a few decent players offering online schools recently and I'm looking for a kind of systematic approach to learning improv'. I have so much unconnected knowledge now so I feel I'd benefit from following a course of sorts.

I've short listed Mike Outran, Richie Zellon and Mike Walker online schools. Does anyone have any experience of using these and if so, what did you think.

Cheers
Sean

**jasaco** · 08-26-2016, 09:40 PM

You'll find scads of info about Zellon's course here on the forum. Don't know about the others, though...

**craigoslo** · 08-27-2016, 01:20 AM

I have just finished a free website for this very reason. I even went to jazz college and was never given anything step by step. Just told to learn all the scales and use them on the right chord at the right time. I developed jazz hack for my self first, but I think that it can help anyone looking how to learn improv.

Jazz Hack | Learn to solo in weeks not years

**Sean65** · 08-27-2016, 08:14 AM

@jasaco, yeah I came across a massive 21 page thread on the Zellon site. Seems like everyone started off waxing lyrical about it and burnt out a few months later.

@Craig, Cheers for the link, I'll take a look at the site.

**AlsoRan** · 08-27-2016, 08:54 AM

Sean65,

I am one of those flameouts for Richie's course. But I would not use my failure to complete the course as a negative against the course.

Guitar is a luxury for me, and one that comes after many other pressing responsibilities. And even with the guitar, my attention is divided in way too many directions (learning playalong songs for different genres, technical and speed drills, creating songs, and also my beloved improvisational ventures).

I was doomed to fail from the start, although I still pick it up and try to internalize his teachings. I just don't do it enough to be able to retain it.

I am confident that if you are able to follow his course, you will have a pretty strong Jazz improvisational bass, especially for Jazz Blues.

I say this because I have cheated ahead and listened to the final etudes and examples in his course in module 9. They go from frankly uninspiring and dry in the first modules, to downright lovely and jazzy in the end. That is where you will be when you end the course.

**targuit** · 08-27-2016, 09:00 AM

I have never formally taken a course with Martin Taylor, but as an owner of his instructional DVD on Jimmy Van Heusen songs and YouTube videos I've watched, I think he is an excellent instructor. I believe he is with Artist Works.

**marcwhy** · 08-27-2016, 09:07 AM

A lot of people have done well with Jimmy Bruno's Guitar Workshop; Tim Miller seems to have a pretty organized program, too.

**wzpgsr** · 08-27-2016, 12:13 PM

I'll chime in in favor of Richie Zellon's course. I've been working my way through it since last fall. It's a lot of work and will take a long time to complete if you have other responsibilities in your life to tend to—and who doesn't? It is *very* structured, so as long as you can nip away at it bit by bit, I think you'll find yourself progressing. I know I have. I've said this before, but I think you need to continue with things like transcribing, learning tunes, and so on, otherwise the course would surely become dull over time. The key for me has been to incorporate the material into my playing slowly while continuing to, you know, play and practice jazz music. Module 3 alone has dozens of chromatic/diatonic/mixed enclosures to practice and it's taken around nine months to get this far. But if that's all I practiced, I'd be bored as hell, and certainly not playing jazz. You have to get these enclosures and various other chord tone embellishments under your fingers while putting in the hard work of hearing them in actual jazz performance and learning what sounds good. This course has really hammered home for me that there are no shortcuts. Learning to play jazz convincingly is a ton of work.

**NSJ** · 08-27-2016, 12:39 PM

I'll chime in to support Richie.

If you're looking for a magic bullet, you'll never find it anywhere .

But Richie s stuff is very systematic if you want to learn how to play changes, it will teach you in a very structured and fundamental way. It also helped me further understand the fingerboard. . For that, it was worth it .

i didn't "finish" it----my studies will last me a lifetime.

**violao1234** · 08-27-2016, 04:04 PM

Hi guys,

The Richie Zellon course really clicked with me and I have made good progress in the last few months. Its organized, progressive and exhaustive. Suits my learning style. Highly recommended

Cheers

**Sean65** · 08-27-2016, 04:25 PM

Thanks Guys,

Yes the BIG thread made interesting reading.

Navdeep's assessment/progress caught my attention as he'd studied some of the material before but valued the reinforcement etc...

AlsoRan, No failure man. Even to get through module 2 sounds like an achievement. I was wondering if it gets too intense but I also understand, even with the best will in the world, it's difficult to maintain intensity some times.

I guess that's where I'm at. I get frustrated and go off on a musical tangent and come back and chip away some more. 'Jack of all trades, master of none' comes to mind. Haha.

It sounds like a pretty decent course if you can maintain a bit of discipline. The fact it's over a blues really piqued my interest because most of my playing is on jump swing blues but I've hit a wall.

I think I might sign up in September and kind of treat it like an academic year and bring that level of mindfulness to the table. (Just remind myself occasionally, "it's only a year").

Cheers
Sean

**55bar** · 08-27-2016, 04:42 PM

Tried Richie's course was too dry for me, I had lessons off Mike all the way through college, he's just incredible. I may also add that Mike Outram's "electric campfire" is amazing he's one of Mike's most successful students.

Barry Greene is also (I have lessons) great for harmony and the Joe pass/ pat martino thing. He's also such a great teacher.

PM me if you want any more info

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**matt.guitarteacher** · 08-27-2016, 04:54 PM

I said from the beginning that Richie's course is fantastic for what it is: a real workshop on basic targeting of chord tones. If you've never done any work on chromatic enclosures etc., it can be a real beast to study, systematically on the fretboard.Richie does a real good job with that aspect.

That being said, it's a narrow, specific focus, and the scope is very, very long term. It's not ALL of the jazz and how to play over ALL different chord types, at least not for a good while.

I think it's a great reference , and you'll get more value out of seeing it as such. It fleshes out the mechanical guitar/fretboard aspects of executing the kind of things which Bert Ligon, Jimmy Amadie and others teach.

I think you might be best served to see it as a supplement, and have other material for working on playing through standard changes which AREN'T blues , for example.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 08-27-2016, 04:58 PM

By the Way, Christian is always talking about the Barry Harris stuff, and I found a lot of what he talks about to be pretty interesting/compelling. I've looked at the DVDs, and they're pretty expensive. Anyway, it seems like there was mention of a guitar specific book built on BH principles for improvisation. (Not talking about Alan's harmony book btw. I'm familiar with that one.)

Was it a Roni Ben-Hur book?
Does Anybody know what I'm talking about or remember that conversation? Possible I'm just not remembering correctly.

Edit: nevermind. I think this was it: https://www.amazon.com/Mel-Talk-Jazz.../dp/0974494321

**Sean65** · 08-27-2016, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

That being said, it's a narrow, specific focus, and the scope is very, very long term. It's not ALL of the jazz and how to play over ALL different chord types, at least not for a good while.

I think you might be best served to see it as a supplement, and have other material for working on playing through standard changes which AREN'T blues , for example.

Is that narrow focus you mention on developing a kind improvisational toolbox that will extend your ideas when improvising?

**matt.guitarteacher** · 08-27-2016, 05:56 PM

By "narrow focus ", I mean it's blues. It's not "how to play over standards". A lot of methods start with blues. So that's fine. Just understand that this method camps out on it for a long, long time. Again, if it was me, I would view it as supplemental. It's one piece, focused on targeting chord tones, and using blues as the framework. If you work this , you're going to improve with the things it's teaching you, but you aren't necessarily going to learn how to play over Stella.

**Sean65** · 08-28-2016, 01:14 AM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

By "narrow focus ", I mean it's blues. It's not "how to play over standards". A lot of methods start with blues. So that's fine. Just understand that this method camps out on it for a long, long time. Again, if it was me, I would view it as supplemental. It's one piece, focused on targeting chord tones, and using blues as the framework. If you work this , you're going to improve with the things it's teaching you, but you aren't necessarily going to learn how to play over Stella.

Thanks, I understand. But I guess it's all transferable so once you have it over any chord progress you can apply it to any other.

**Sean65** · 08-28-2016, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by wzpgsr

Module 3 alone has dozens of chromatic/diatonic/mixed enclosures to practice and it's taken around nine months to get this far.

So when Richie suggests one module a month and then three months at the end to review and tidy things up, is that a slightly unrealistic time frame? I'd imagine there's a lifetimes worth of material but is the idea to get the gist of each module for a month and keep moving forward each month or are you trying to master each module before moving on?

**wzpgsr** · 08-28-2016, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Sean65

So when Richie suggests one module a month and then three months at the end to review and tidy things up, is that a slightly unrealistic time frame? I'd imagine there's a lifetimes worth of material but is the idea to get the gist of each module for a month and keep moving forward each month or are you trying to master each module before moving on?

I think I read somewhere that this material is based on a college-type schedule. I am not practicing anywhere near the amount I would be practicing if I were doing this full-time. Also, while perhaps not shooting for absolute mastery, I really would like these concepts to sink in a lot more than they would in a month per module. So I'm taking my time and not stressing about it. Right now I am halfway through module 3. At the same I time I am practicing the enclosures (there's a ton) I am also working with the licks ("Candy Bars") from the end of Module 2. There's a ton of useful material in the Candy Bars and I realized it would be a mistake to just gloss over them. These are actual lines. Starting and ending on different chord tones. You learn them as eighth note runs, then you apply different rhythmic variations to them. I try to connect them over basic blues progressions using as many rhythmic variations as I can. I could seriously spend half a year just working those.

Oh yeah, Richie also mentions re-using these licks over m7 chords by flatting the third. So while it's true that the formal focus of the course is blues, if you're motivated to work outside of the course structure you could also start applying these lines to ii-Vs, etc.

One extra thing I've been practicing is using the candy bars in non-blues tunes. If there's a dominant chord, I will play one of the lines. I've also done things like play one of the lines over a tritone sub instead of the vanilla chord. For example, if there's a one measure ii-V that goes Am-D7 I might play a D7 line over the whole measure, or I might play the line in Gb and try to hear and understand the sounds I get from that. Tons to do!!

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**christianm77** · 08-28-2016, 11:40 AM

Mike Outram is great. I like his teaching materials, I subscribed to the Electric Campfire last year. I don't think it's a complete A-B course, more like a bunch of ideas for extending your playing and taking it out of your comfort zone.

**Sean65** · 08-28-2016, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by wzpgsr

So I'm taking my time and not stressing about it. Right now I am halfway through module 3.

Smart move; I think we all have a tendency to move on before we've spent enough time with an idea/concept.

I was clicking around earlier and I watched the free lessons on Truefire's Bebop Improv course by Fareed Hague and he mentioned a few things that really resonated with me. Firstly, he pointed out in the introduction video that bebop is, in effect, an American folk music of sorts. A kind of cultural heritage and yes you can analyse it till the cows come home and create formulas etc. But at the end of the day its an aural art form.

A later video I watched from the freebie's, he suggests knowing the arpeggios for the form/tune and being aware of the the corresponding chord/scales BUT THEN, why not make up your own chord/scales. Kind of play with it, experiment and mess around, if it sounds cool to you, then use it. So I guess we can create names and formulas (enclosures and chromatics) but let you ears decide.

I'm starting to think that this attitude mixed with a heavy dose of more 'active' listening might be worth exploring.

He's a funny Fareed, I enjoyed watching those vids.

**Sean65** · 08-28-2016, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Mike Outram is great. I like his teaching materials, I subscribed to the Electric Campfire last year. I don't think it's a complete A-B course, more like a bunch of ideas for extending your playing and taking it out of your comfort zone.

That's good to know. You're the first to respond about Mike's lessons.

I'm pretty sure I'm in good hands with any of those guys. What I really need to sort out is my head and my attitude to study/music and develop that kind of childlike curiosity that makes you explore a bit more.

**55bar** · 08-28-2016, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Sean65

That's good to know. You're the first to respond about Mike's lessons.

I'm pretty sure I'm in good hands with any of those guys. What I really need to sort out is my head and my attitude to study/music and develop that kind of childlike curiosity that makes you explore a bit more.

Ahem....

**paulcw16** · 08-29-2016, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Sean65

Hi Guys,

I've noticed a few decent players offering online schools recently and I'm looking for a kind of systematic approach to learning improv'. I have so much unconnected knowledge now so I feel I'd benefit from following a course of sorts.

I've short listed Mike Outran, Richie Zellon and Mike Walker online schools. Does anyone have any experience of using these and if so, what did you think.

Cheers
Sean

My feeling is that 95% of the process is practice, not the system. In my mind, everything starts with one's goal and how much time you can devote. Unless you have endless free time to cover everything in the vast universe of jazz improv, I would recommend you clearly define your goal and go from there. Someone who likes the sound of Charlie Christian is going to practice differently than someone who likes Larry Coryell, etc etc. Hope that helps.

**Sean65** · 08-29-2016, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by paulcw16

My feeling is that 95% of the process is practice, not the system. In my mind, everything starts with one's goal and how much time you can devote. Unless you have endless free time to cover everything in the vast universe of jazz improv, I would recommend you clearly define your goal and go from there. Someone who likes the sound of Charlie Christian is going to practice differently than someone who likes Larry Coryell, etc etc. Hope that helps.

I guess my goal is to not have to learn other peoples licks but start creating my own. I realise I have to learn from others in order to assimilate the vibe, phrasing and theory but eventually I'd like to be able to tap in to some kind of internalised theory or understanding that free's me up. Very much along the line of 'give a man a fish' vs 'teach a man to fish'.

I guess what I mean by systematic is that I'm kind of looking for a road map and willing to put some effort in.

Since starting this thread I've come to the understanding that my issues might well be my lack of study skills and organisational skills.