Playing changes with three basic arpeggios

[christianm77]

New lesson up - three arpeggios covers the changes. Similar to what some people have been talking about elsewhere.

http://learngypsyjazzguitar.blogspot...-for-jazz.html

A video on more specific applications to come...

[NSJ]

I would hammer away the very important point about the diminished arpeggio --it's a chord of movment that you can use to get you somewhere else and help you create a LONGER line that has voice leading.

for example using Barry Harris play dim arpeggio at each important point in his major minor 6th scale. Eg, In the key of G, play 4 separate dim arps, staring at F#, A, C, and D#. At the end of each 4 note sequence, see exactly where you are and, more importantly, the diatomic and chromatic movment you may need to get you to another arp (eg, GM7, D7, Am7)--- to the nearest available chord tone (i.e., voice leading ).

that also gets you not only voice leading but a longer More fluid line. It would require practicing all 4 related dim arps and then figuring out strategically and systematically where you need to go next.

[christianm77]

I would hammer away the very important point about the diminished arpeggio --it's a chord of movment that you can use to get you somewhere else and help you create a LONGER line that has voice leading.

for example using Barry Harris play dim arpeggio at each important point in his major minor 6th scale. Eg, In the key of G, play 4 separate dim arps, staring at F#, A, C, and D#. At the end of each 4 note sequence, see exactly where you are and, more importantly, the diatomic and chromatic movment you may need to get you to another arp (eg, GM7, D7, Am7)--- to the nearest available chord tone (i.e., voice leading ).

that also gets you not only voice leading but a longer More fluid line. It would require practicing all 4 related dim arps and then figuring out strategically and systematically where you need to go next.

I'm not really sure if I understand exactly what you mean. Would it be possible to post a musical example? Sounds interesting...

[NSJ]

I'm not really sure if I understand exactly what you mean. Would it be possible to post a musical example? Sounds interesting...

One example

key of G, dim chord built on A (2°), C (4th °), D# (#5°) and F# (7th °) based on Barry Harris harmonized dim 6th scales

the Dim arps are (excuse lack on enharmonic continuity)


ACD#F#
CD#F#A
D#F#AC
F#ACD#

pracrice all 4 in a given position. Find out exactly where you are at end of each (which note, as indicated above )
say you want to play a GM7 arp next , how many chromatic or diatonic steps needed to get to nearest chord tone associated with GM7 (GBDF#). Forget about extensions for now.

Usw the 4 dim arps as a transport system to get you from arp to arp, clear ?

[christianm77]

One example

key of G, dim chord built on A (2°), C (4th °), D# (#5°) and F# (7th °) based on Barry Harris harmonized dim 6th scales

the Dim arps are (excuse lack on enharmonic continuity)


ACD#F#
CD#F#A
D#F#AC
F#ACD#

pracrice all 4 in a given position. Find out exactly where you are at end of each (which note, as indicated above )
say you want to play a GM7 arp next , how many chromatic or diatonic steps needed to get to nearest chord tone associated with GM7 (GBDF#). Forget about extensions for now.

Usw the 4 dim arps as a transport system to get you from arp to arp, clear ?

Oh yeah that make sense. You are essentially arpeggiating the basic chords from the 6 dim scale.

I have played around with these ideas in the past, but haven't looked at them recently. The pattern I learned from Barry interleaves a m6 and dim7 chord, something which he attributed to Coleman Hawkins.

I don't think he would personally use a maj7 in this context, but no reason not to. The repeition of that F# might make the pattern a little cock-eyed though. In contrast the GM6 and F#o7 have no notes in common.

Of course you can do the same thing with G dim7 and F# dim7 and get - gasp! - the G diminished scale :-)

Anyway, that's a little more advanced than what I talking about here. This is just to get yer kids kicked off with the basics. Needless to say this should all be super familiar to Barry students.

[NSJ]

Oh yeah that make sense. You are essentially arpeggiating the basic chords from the 6 dim scale.

I have played around with these ideas in the past, but haven't looked at them recently. The pattern I learned from Barry interleaves a m6 and dim7 chord, something which he attributed to Coleman Hawkins.

I don't think he would personally use a maj7 in this context, but no reason not to. The repeition of that F# might make the pattern a little cock-eyed though. In contrast the GM6 and F#o7 have no notes in common.

Of course you can do the same thing with G dim7 and F# dim7 and get - gasp! - the G diminished scale :-)

Anyway, that's a little more advanced than what I talking about here. This is just to get yer kids kicked off with the basics. Needless to say this should all be super familiar to Barry students.

Yes arpeggiatimg the M-m 6 dim , per Barry.

Thre difference in terms of what Barry-Pasquale-Andrew-Roni present the dim chord is that they generally present it as a block chord (i.e., drop 2, drop 3, drop 2 and 4). Naturally you can arpeggiate that, of course.

This is presented sequentially as lines, no open voicings, just going up m3 each time. For me, this is a two fold tool--helping to cement the workspace (fingerboard) musically without resorting to the usual grips, being able to play lines in a given position more or less and learning to voicelead from chord to chord via dim arps as lines and not expressed as grips.

I don't know, I find it very useful as both a musical exercise and as a fingerboard exercise . You're not a slave to grips and can just use arps as lines that create longer and longer lines while more or less maintaining a given position.

EDIT this also facilitates left hand finger independence as you try to maintain position while needing tomg0 where you need to go with the m3 movements.

[christianm77]

Yes arpeggiatimg the M-m 6 dim , per Barry.

Thre difference in terms of what Barry-Pasquale-Andrew-Roni present the dim chord is that they generally present it as a block chord (i.e., drop 2, drop 3, drop 2 and 4). Naturally you can arpeggiate that, of course.

This is presented sequentially as lines, no open voicings, just going up m3 each time. For me, this is a two fold tool--helping to cement the workspace (fingerboard) musically without resorting to the usual grips, being able to play lines in a given position more or less and learning to voicelead from chord to chord via dim arps as lines and not expressed as grips.

I don't know, I find it very useful as both a musical exercise and as a fingerboard exercise . You're not a slave to grips and can just use arps as lines that create longer and longer lines while more or less maintaining a given position.

EDIT this also facilitates left hand finger independence as you try to maintain position while needing tomg0 where you need to go with the m3 movements.

Barry also presents them as lines much as you describe.

[eh6794]

I would hammer away the very important point about the diminished arpeggio --it's a chord of movment that you can use to get you somewhere else and help you create a LONGER line that has voice leading.

for example using Barry Harris play dim arpeggio at each important point in his major minor 6th scale. Eg, In the key of G, play 4 separate dim arps, staring at F#, A, C, and D#. At the end of each 4 note sequence, see exactly where you are and, more importantly, the diatomic and chromatic movment you may need to get you to another arp (eg, GM7, D7, Am7)--- to the nearest available chord tone (i.e., voice leading ).

that also gets you not only voice leading but a longer More fluid line. It would require practicing all 4 related dim arps and then figuring out strategically and systematically where you need to go next.

If, for example, I am in the key of C, I would:
Cmaj7(chord) ----> (single notes) D E G ----> Ab B D F -----> Dmin7 or Fmaj7?

[NSJ]

If, for example, I am in the key of C, I would:
Cmaj7(chord) ----> (single notes) D E G ----> Ab B D F -----> Dmin7 or Fmaj7?

If you're in the Key of C, The relevant diminished arpeggios or chords would be: Ab°, B°, D and F°. Remember that this is the same chord, they were only three diminished chords . It just starts on a different note. What you have proposed is in A flat diminished arpeggio .

The last note of Such arpeggio there is F. F is the root of F major seventh and the flat third of D minor seventh . You could pick whatever one you wanted because you landed on a chord tone.

You could even continue the diminished cycle and play F diminished arpeggio. (F Ab B and D) The last note you end it on is D. If you wanted to go to the three chord, I.e., E, minor seventh, you are already on a chord tone (m7).

Lots of choices. The diminished arpeggios get you where you need to go, and make a great system of transportation .

[eh6794]

If you're in the Key of C, The relevant diminished arpeggios or chords would be: Ab°, B°, Eb° and F°. Remember that this is the same chord, they were only three diminished chords . It just starts on a different note. What you have proposed is in A flat diminished arpeggio .

The last note of Such arpeggio there is F. F is the root of F major seventh and the flat third of D minor seventh . You could pick whatever one you wanted because you landed on a chord tone.

You could even continue the diminished cycle and play F diminished arpeggio. (F Ab C Eb). The last note you end it on is E flat. If you wanted to go to the three chord, I.e., E, minor seventh, just move the E_flat down or up a half step to get to a chord tone .

Lots of choices. The diminished arpeggios get you where you need to go, and make a great system of transportation .

You have me confused. I guess I need to brush up on my theory, but why is there an Eb in my example?

[EDIT] I think it should be Ab Cb Ebb Gbb?

[NSJ]

Sorry, typos on my part that should be be B diminished, D diminished F diminished, Ab flat diminished.

E flat diminished is the same as C diminished . My mistake.

I corrected my original post.

[eh6794]

I'm so glad you replied. I'm a physics major and every time something doesn't make sense, I will obsess over it for days until it can be solved. This would have ruined my weekend haha

Anyways, your original idea opened my eyes to new things.

[princeplanet]

Yes, I wish I was taught this simplified way of handling improv over functional harmony based tunes. You could (and Christian, I know you in fact do) simplify it even further to the Tonic vs Dominant sounds, where everything is either T class or D class. So a chord and arpeggio that represents T is all you need to handle I, iii, vi (sometimes IV), and for "D" class you're representing ii, V, vii (sometimes IV).

For me, if we take the key of C, the T class of notes are CEGA (C6). D class = BDFA (Bm7b5). To the novices reading this thread (hope I'm just not preaching to the choir..), you could cover all major key harmony with these 2 pitch collections and sound like you're making the changes. (it's limited, and might get boring, but it's a good start). Trouble is minor keys need to address the raised 3rd for the V (b9) which means handling, say 2 -5 -1 in minor keys isn't as simple as simply playing your 2-5-1 licks for C maj against the rel minor key - ie Bm7-E7b9-Am7. Actually, you can, but it's just not as interesting as it can be. First thing you have to deal with is defaulting to the b9 against the V chord in a minor key, and that introduces the need for the 3rd class you need, the Diminished, which of course turns your Dominant class into the rootless V7b9. This is a powerful sound as it can also be used as a dominant sound in major keys, as well as "connective tissue" like secondary dominants for every/any chord in the key (ala Barry Harris).

So 3 groups, m7/maj6 , m7b5/m6, and dim7 gets you all the sounds you need on the most basic level for all tunes, whether in major or mi or keys. If you prefer to (as most do) play m6 as your tonic minor, then of course the appropriate m7b5/m6 class covers that.

If I were teaching, I'd be encouraging getting the student's head around this approach. The related scales, extra tensions and chromatic embellishments and enclosures etc can always come later. I'd even be tempted to introduce common substitution concepts using these 3 basic pitch collections before expanding out to include other notes (scales tones, chromatics etc). For example, using half dim off the b7 of the V chord to get the b9b13 sound, as a gateway to the "Altered" domain...

The next stage (for me) would be to turn the 4 note arps into 5 note arps (pentatonics) which are far more musical for melodic invention, patterns sequences etc. Only then would I start to add in the other connecting notes I referred to earlier. When you think about it, this evolving approach directly mirrors the advancement of Jazz from Louis to Wayne. If students use Shorter tunes to learn too soon, they won't have what all those guys had- years of fundamental training playing and hearing the standard changes. The "3 arp" system, if we could call it that, along with the T/D approach, gets any student into the game without exploding their heads with endless theory, books, CST, LCC etc...

As I've mentioned before (much to his embarrassment I'm sure), if you're a beginner, I'd like to suggest that Christian's posts and videos be your first "go to" resources (no offence to the other posters, including myself!). He's always looking at easy ways to break it down without leaving anything important out, and seems to have newbie's perspective pretty sussed. There should be a sticky called "Christian's Corner" or something where all his important posts and vids are categorised. Anyone care to second that motion?

[NSJ]

This thread has got me thinking of the two octave meta-diminished arpeggio run that will take you from string five to string one, for example, eventually only moving two positions, and, except for string two ( in which one note is played, using finger number three ), strings 5–4 – 3–1 require only fingers one and four to play two notes on each sthing.

C-Eb. (String 5)
Gb-A (string 4)
C-Eb (string 3)
Gb (string 2)
A-C (string 1)

This is a pattern that can be played really fast, and you ultimately only wind up changing two positions, going from third position to fifth position. You could, for added speed, even slur the second note of the two note sequences on strings five, four, three, and one.

This just simplifies it even further, instead of thinking of four separate diminished arpeggios, it's just one diminished arpeggio and you could get off the highway (from string five to strIng one) anytime you want.

[christianm77]

Yes, I wish I was taught this simplified way of handling improv over functional harmony based tunes. You could (and Christian, I know you in fact do) simplify it even further to the Tonic vs Dominant sounds, where everything is either T class or D class. So a chord and arpeggio that represents T is all you need to handle I, iii, vi (sometimes IV), and for "D" class you're representing ii, V, vii (sometimes IV).

For me, if we take the key of C, the T class of notes are CEGA (C6). D class = BDFA (Bm7b5). To the novices reading this thread (hope I'm just not preaching to the choir..), you could cover all major key harmony with these 2 pitch collections and sound like you're making the changes. (it's limited, and might get boring, but it's a good start). Trouble is minor keys need to address the raised 3rd for the V (b9) which means handling, say 2 -5 -1 in minor keys isn't as simple as simply playing your 2-5-1 licks for C maj against the rel minor key - ie Bm7-E7b9-Am7. Actually, you can, but it's just not as interesting as it can be. First thing you have to deal with is defaulting to the b9 against the V chord in a minor key, and that introduces the need for the 3rd class you need, the Diminished, which of course turns your Dominant class into the rootless V7b9. This is a powerful sound as it can also be used as a dominant sound in major keys, as well as "connective tissue" like secondary dominants for every/any chord in the key (ala Barry Harris).

So 3 groups, m7/maj6 , m7b5/m6, and dim7 gets you all the sounds you need on the most basic level for all tunes, whether in major or mi or keys. If you prefer to (as most do) play m6 as your tonic minor, then of course the appropriate m7b5/m6 class covers that.

If I were teaching, I'd be encouraging getting the student's head around this approach. The related scales, extra tensions and chromatic embellishments and enclosures etc can always come later. I'd even be tempted to introduce common substitution concepts using these 3 basic pitch collections before expanding out to include other notes (scales tones, chromatics etc). For example, using half dim off the b7 of the V chord to get the b9b13 sound, as a gateway to the "Altered" domain...

The next stage (for me) would be to turn the 4 note arps into 5 note arps (pentatonics) which are far more musical for melodic invention, patterns sequences etc. Only then would I start to add in the other connecting notes I referred to earlier. When you think about it, this evolving approach directly mirrors the advancement of Jazz from Louis to Wayne. If students use Shorter tunes to learn too soon, they won't have what all those guys had- years of fundamental training playing and hearing the standard changes. The "3 arp" system, if we could call it that, along with the T/D approach, gets any student into the game without exploding their heads with endless theory, books, CST, LCC etc...

As I've mentioned before (much to his embarrassment I'm sure), if you're a beginner, I'd like to suggest that Christian's posts and videos be your first "go to" resources (no offence to the other posters, including myself!). He's always looking at easy ways to break it down without leaving anything important out, and seems to have newbie's perspective pretty sussed. There should be a sticky called "Christian's Corner" or something where all his important posts and vids are categorised. Anyone care to second that motion?

Aww shucks :-)

[christianm77]

This thread has got me thinking of the two octave meta-diminished arpeggio run that will take you from string five to string one, for example, eventually only moving two positions, and, except for string two ( in which one note is played, using finger number three ), strings 5–4 – 3–1 require only fingers one and four to play two notes on each sthing.

C-Eb. (String 5)
Gb-A (string 4)
C-Eb (string 3)
Gb (string 2)
A-C (string 1)

This is a pattern that can be played really fast, and you ultimately only wind up changing two positions, going from third position to fifth position. You could, for added speed, even slur the second note of the two note sequences on strings five, four, three, and one.

This just simplifies it even further, instead of thinking of four separate diminished arpeggios, it's just one diminished arpeggio and you could get off the highway (from string five to strIng one) anytime you want.

Do a vid!

[NSJ]

Do a vid!

Ok I'll do it later when I get home.

As a word of warning, I don't hold myself out to be any kind of teacher , just a Schmo trying to figure shit out.

What is British for schmo? A bit more well intentioned than "Chav " but something a bit less unpretentious than Lord Fuckin' Clive

[rlrhett]

So, just for the beginner like me:

We've got a typical vi-ii-V7-I progression say, Am-Dm-G7-Cmaj. You would suggest that we construct lines from the Am6 over the Am, the Dm6 over the Dm, the Cm6 or Abdim over the G7, and the Am6 again over the Cmaj?

[christianm77]

Ok I'll do it later when I get home.

As a word of warning, I don't hold myself out to be any kind of teacher , just a Schmo trying to figure shit out.

What is British for schmo? A bit more well intentioned than "Chav " but something a bit less unpretentious than Lord Fuckin' Clive

Nah I wouldn't use Chav lol - horrible expression actually.

What about numpty.... That's one of my favourite UK english words actually:-) Think it means more or less the same thing as schmo.

[NSJ]

OK Numpty Dumpty here. since I was asked I posted a video of the two octave diminished arpeggio. I'm a bit embarrassed by this because I am not a teacher, and the concept is pretty basic anyway here it is
Chairs, lads and Come on You Gunners! Or is it "Chiz"!

[princeplanet]

So, just for the beginner like me:

We've got a typical vi-ii-V7-I progression say, Am-Dm-G7-Cmaj. You would suggest that we construct lines from the Am6 over the Am, the Dm6 over the Dm, the Cm6 or Abdim over the G7, and the Am6 again over the Cmaj?

Well, a simple way is play the pitch collection ACEG for the vi and I chords, and BDFA against the ii and V chords. So basically C6 and Bm7b5 (or Dm6). Of course the V will take the Dim7 - G# B D F - to create a b9, or Fm7b5 - F Ab Cb Eb- to create a b9b13 sound.

[christianm77]

Part 2:

More info to be found here:

Gypsy Jazz and Swing Guitar Learner's Blog: Big three arpeggios for jazz - part 2

[joe2758]

As I've mentioned before (much to his embarrassment I'm sure), if you're a beginner, I'd like to suggest that Christian's posts and videos be your first "go to" resources (no offence to the other posters, including myself!). He's always looking at easy ways to break it down without leaving anything important out, and seems to have newbie's perspective pretty sussed. There should be a sticky called "Christian's Corner" or something where all his important posts and vids are categorised. Anyone care to second that motion?

seconded! A sticky of Christian's vids in some sort of progressive order would be an awesome resource for students trying to avoid BS

[rlrhett]

Well, a simple way is play the pitch collection ACEG for the vi and I chords, and BDFA against the ii and V chords. So basically C6 and Bm7b5 (or Dm6). Of course the V will take the Dim7 - G# B D F - to create a b9, or Fm7b5 - F Ab Cb Eb- to create a b9b13 sound.

I guess that only leaves confusion over the issue of playing the m6 over a dominant chord. It seemed that Christian was saying you could play a minor 6 built on the dominant chords 4th (5:30 in his vid). So over a G7 chord I would have thought C-Eb-G-A. I feel I'm not understanding something.

[christianm77]

I guess that only leaves confusion over the issue of playing the m6 over a dominant chord. It seemed that Christian was saying you could play a minor 6 built on the dominant chords 4th (5:30 in his vid). So over a G7 chord I would have thought C-Eb-G-A. I feel I'm not understanding something.

That's incorrect. The m6 is built on the fifth of the dominant chord. So your G7 would be Dm6 - D F A B.

I should have said 'm6 can be played over the dominant chord a fourth higher' - hopefully that's what I've said.

In any case, the link under the new video has some written examples of how you would apply this on a tune. Hopefully that should be clear.