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I'll check into your suggestions. What you describe "sounds" great. Please keep me informed as to what you are dong in this regard, as I am into it.
Originally Posted by NSJ
I know what you mean about the learning curve (had to laugh). Man, I was so intimidated when I got just this RC-50 that I let it sit on my floor for several months. Finally a very good friend (Brian Price) talked me down and got me going (my support team of one). Man, the directions just don't do it for me.
Thanks for sharing.
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11-16-2009 12:14 PM
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Here's another guy, a young fellow based out of NYC named Dana Leong, who apparently plays trombone and cello and processes both through a computer ---absolutely have never heard of him before, but he says he has worked with, among others, Christian McBride, Steve Coleman, Sam Rivers, et al. Actually, he lists his instrumentation as "cello/trombone/laptop". Again, I cannot comment on his music, but just going along with the theme of "using very traditional instruments with a computer".
DANA LEONG
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Nice topic drift. :-)
Back to the original question: anyone else have a chance to look over Ed's book? I just bought the eBook version (I'm such a book whore) - it looks interesting, I'll report back here what I think after I've gotten through more of it.
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Very talented. I dig it. I didn't hear much if any looping on this clip, though--mostly delay and sound modification (I'll have to explore the other clips when I have time). I like the fact, once again, that the music grooves--and I don't care what anybody wants to actually call that groove (the term hip hop, for instance, has no meaning to me--just another great, and familiar, African rhythm). Originally Posted by NSJ
Here's me doing the delay thing (with Mick Goodrick in my band)--click on "Record-Me" (Abercromie's on the other cuts there):
Ed Byrne op MySpace Music ? Gratis gestreamde MP3?s, foto?s en Videoclips
After I did that lengthy introduction solo with an old Analog delay, Goodrick rooled his eyes and played the shit out his digital delay (he had laughed at my obsolescence at the sound check).
Tomorrow night I am doing a one-camera video shoot of a solo jazz gig in Belchertown, MA. The local cable channel is also shooting it. Maybe I'll get lucky, but you know how it goes when you're not using a professional team with several cameras.
Best,
EdLast edited by Ed Byrne; 11-16-2009 at 03:10 PM.
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The best book, I've ever read for improvisation,
Creative Jazz Improvisation: Scott D. Reeves
Creative Jazz Improvisation
Scott Reeves
Best Josh
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So as promised, I'm reporting back on my initial thoughts on the Linear Jazz Improvisation books that I've read so far by Ed Byrne. I've purchased and read Book 1 ("The Method") and Book 2 ("Triads").
First off, let me preface everything by saying that I'm relatively new to jazz guitar (and jazz in general, really). I've only really been studying it seriously for about a year now. Previous guitar experience included a few years of classical guitar, and a lot of years just horsing around, figuring out mostly rock tunes by ear. Also, in the past couple of years I've made my way through 4 semesters of music theory and ear training at the local university, so while I've got a good academic understanding of music now, I've been struggling to come up with a way to approach soloing/improvisation. I tend to get lost in the changes and end up sort of blindly feeling my way around a song until it comes back to a key center that I recognize and can play over. I hit a lot of wrong notes in the process.
I've tried approaching improvisation via modes: you know the deal, dorian over a m7, mixolydian over a dom7, etc. etc. etc. That approach has never worked for me. I've also tried a method called "melodic construction," where you play chord tones on strong beats and other notes (possibly diatonic, possibly chromatic) on weak beats. Again, it doesn't work for me. The problem with both of these approaches is that it requires too much damn thinking. Let's face it, when you're trying to hit eighth notes at 240bpm over some bop tune with all sorts of crazy changes, it is next to impossible to think like this and have it come out on the instrument in time.
So, I was intrigued by Ed's method. Basically, the idea is that since the melody of a standard already has the changes "built in," you distill the melody down to it essential notes, getting rid of any ornamentation/passing tones/chormatics/etc., ending up with one, maybe two notes per measure. You use these notes as "target notes" during your improvisation, and apply one of his approach methods to these target notes (possibly mixing several of these approaches in one phrase). What you end up with is something that sounds quite like a "real jazz solo". It's a very good method for extracting a melodic-sounding solo from a given melody.
Book 1 ("The Method") contains quite a bit of good information on his approach and how it works. There are a handful of example songs used that are basically the same as standards (e.g. he's got a song called "You Are All Things" that is based on "All The Things You Are" - dunno why he's got to do this, maybe copyright). The examples are all pretty thorough, and the book is very well written throughout. It's a bit thin at a little over 100 pp. for $35.00, but I had no problem with this since it contained everything I was looking for. Book 1 also covers some other ideas, like rhythmic reduction. I did not immediately see the appliaction of this, but I'll go back and re-examine it after I assimilate the melodic reduction that I'm working on right now. I'm trying to apply it to all the songs in my repertoire (which is pretty limited right now at 24 songs).
Book 2 ("Triads") is the application of his 10 chromatic targeting techniques to triads of all four types (maj, min, dim, aug), in 3 keys. I found this book less useful than the first. It's essentially a couple of pages of re-iteration of the basic ideas of Book 1, followed by about 50 pages of exhaustively annotated 'exercises' wherein each type of chromatic approach is applied to each type of triad in the 3 keys he uses. This kind of reminded me of one of those "chord encyclopedias," where they give you the same couple of shapes 100 times and end up with a book 1000 pages long. Now, perhaps this book would be more valuable to other instruments, but the very nature of the guitar is that once I know one or two shapes for a given chord/arpeggio/scale, I can re-apply that everywhere on the fretboard and displace it to any key as I see fit. Not to mention the fact that Ed himself recommends that the student memorize the patterns instead of reading them from a page. So I thought this book was a little superfluous, and not worth the $35.00 I forked over for it.
Book 2 does come with some Finale files (which I have not used since I do not own Finale), so perhaps that adds some value.
Book 3 is titled "Sevenths," and I can only imagine that it is very similar to Book 2 (basically a compendium of approaches to sevenths, which I can figure out by myself), so I won't be purchasing that one.
There are other books offered, too. Books 4 and 5 are more advanced material (bichordal and polytonal etudes). The remainder are single songs to which the basic method has been applied. Again, each of these is $35.00, and only weigh in at around 55 pp. each, so I'm not certain I'm going to purchase any of them. To be honest, I think that the "method" should be self-contained, and include books 1-3 plus several of the songs for the initial purchase price. If I were to buy everything in the method, it would come out to >$500.00! That's a lot of money.
The other thing I would say, is that the method does not seem to lend itself particularly well to tunes other than standards. I don't think it would work well over modal tunes, since the melodies in most modal tunes tend to be little more than simple lines. Not that it really matters anyway, because it isn't difficult to navigate a modal tune's changes, and the whole point is to explore the improvisational possibilities of particular modes. I also don't quite see how the method would work on something like a Charlie Parker bop tune (e.g. Ornithology). There are so many notes in the head of these tunes that I would think extracting the "important notes" from the head would be next to impossible. Perhaps the key here is to realize that many bop tunes are simply contrafacts - a new musical composition built out of an already existing one, usually a standard. So, I guess you would have to learn the head verbatim, and then go back to the original standard and apply the Byrne method that that melody.
OK, I've chattered on enough for now. Ed, if you read this I hope you don't take offense at anything I wrote. Like I said, the publications are very professional and I think the method has quite a lot of merit. I'd just maybe like to have a little more bang for my buck. :-)Last edited by FatJeff; 11-24-2009 at 01:26 PM.
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Where do I begin? You say you've been learning jazz all of about 1 year? And you make such quick judgements? You've merely scanned these two books, yet you feel competent to offer a book report on them. You are far cleverer than I.
While the number of pages in a text is not totally irrelevant, if you count pages as a priority, I have a phone book to give you for free. The problem with jazz book buyers is that they all too often seek information, in a misguided assumption that this is what will do it for them. Even when you get the ideas all straight, that is only the first 5%: The rest is all application. How you apply things makes a profound difference.
LJI Method is a method. It not only supplies concepts, but the actual substance of what to play, and then exactly how to practice each concept. That is what these application books are for--to supply what to play and exactly how to practice it. Of course, you have to first read the instructions. I taught this very lesson to a tenured Harvard professor (composer/performer) only yesterday.
You need to first read the detailed instructions: Book I is the LJI idea (or "theory") book. All other books are for application of the method's concepts, hence no text beyond the introduction. In the description of Books 2 and 3 on my web site, it is stated that if you are advanced, you might wish to skip these two books. However, given your inexperience you should not.
Try doing what the instructions instruct: Do not read the exercizes, but sing and play them with the free Finale sound files by rote. Then improvise on each one at length. It took me at least six months to accomplish this, and I was already a highly experienced jazz performer on the NYC jazz scene. The sound files and the exhaustive rote learning with them is essential to the process. Come back and criticize (or ask advice) after you have done the work.
When you say that "the method does not seem to lend itself particularly well to tunes other than standards," nothing could be farther from the truth: It works on any tune in virtually any style. You base your criticisms on mere impressions based on conventional expectations and a very limited experience. Pick a tune and I will show you how to apply my method to it.
If you bought all these books for $500 (a lifetime of focused work for the price of a single month's rent), you would have all you need to work directly and systematically at developing a personal jazz improvisation style--for the rest of your life. I wrote all of these books first for myself. I wrote nothing that is unnecessary. I myself still return to books 2 and 3 (and all the other books), as do my most advanced students. Indeed, I write books on all of my compositions, in preparation for performance. Because that is what works in the fasted and most focused way to improve my vocabulary and release in performance. Use the sound files, which you haven't. They are essential to the process.
Try taking each exercize one at a time in Book II. Memorize one of them by playing it repeatedly with the sound file. Then improvise on it at length using the same notes and their behavior, but by adding jazz rhythm, inflections, articulations, and vibratos (and/or their guitar equivalents in hammer-ons, pull-offs, etc). Develop a rap on the purposely-limited musical information contained in each exercize. It is a form of "oral composition." This is how to develop your rap, your story, your vocabulary.
Book II is written out in only three keys because: It is meant only to get you started at playing everything you do in all 12 keys. This is what all practitioners do as a matter of course. If I had written it out in all keys you would have your phone book, but it would supply a meaningless exercise, rather than point you towards the skills you really need to develop.
In the "Songbooks Series," beginning with Blue Monk, the 10 targeting patterns (which take a great deal of time to internalize) are applied directly to a specific tune, in addition to developing and permutating the reduced rhythms found in the composition. For example, the first phrase of Blue Monk, when you take out the "motor rhythm," gives you a simple "Charleston Rhythm." Then we apply chromatic targeting to that. Then we learn the same, only displaced by a beat or half-beat in either direction.
But all of this sounds like--and is--just words. If you want to get something out of the books, get to work on them. Instead of noticing how simple it all looks, re-read the instructions, learn to sing it all, then pick up your guitar while not looking at the finger board, and play and sing improvisations based on the limited information contained in each exercise one at a time.
I guarantee that you can not do this with ease.
Please do some serious homework in re-reading, and then applying this material. And then we shall talk some more.Last edited by Ed Byrne; 11-24-2009 at 05:00 PM.
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Ed: points taken, and I will revisit the materials as you suggest, but can I just say one thing: you seem very defensive, and quick to criticize others who offer their opinion on your materials (even if that opinion is from an inexperienced player). I know that this method is probably very near and dear to your heart, so I understand where you are coming from, but when you lead off your reply to my post with snide comments ("you are far cleverer than I" and "I have a phone book to give you for free"), you come off sounding like a jerk. I don't think this is your intent, but that's the way it sounded to me when I first read it. It was the same thing with your initial reply to Jake Hanlon's post.
Nobody - newbies like me included - wants to be marginalized.
That being said, I'm still interested in hearing more from you since you are the author of the method and you know it best. I would be interested in one of the song books, but it would be nice if the song were one that I was already working on. I see that you recommend "Blue Monk" as the first to delve into - is that based on a standard or is it an original composition? If the latter, I may lean more towards "Stella" or "All The Things".
Looking forward to your reply.
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I can take any true criticism. But don't you think it a bit presumptious for someone with one year experience to rush to judgement of a method that he has merely scanned (and not even begun to apply)? You couldn't possibly get it yet. How could you? You haven't used it yet to know how it all works. The sound files are key. Btw, Jake put down my book, having never laid eyes on it, simply because I was not a guitarist. Originally Posted by FatJeff
And to speak of page numbers is frustrating in their irrellevancy. I meant no insult to either remark, either, so please re-read those as well.
I am very busy these days, and cannot linger here all day. But if you actually read the instructions, and then follow through and do what is suggested, I can return periodically and guide you through the entire process. How's that?
I need to get back to my work right now. Please apply this method and then keep asking questions. Believe me, in the process you will see how valuable all this is, and how quickly it gets you to a point where you are making substantive statements which will be noticable to everyone in the performance room.
People write me daily to either thank me for the books or to ask questions. I haven't gotten any letters complaining about page numbers, or about things they haven't done, such as learning with the sound files. Because if you haven't done that, there is no possible way you could understand what this method does. Simple fact. It takes, at frst, a little bit of faith and a lot of work at applying it, before you really understand.
EdLast edited by Ed Byrne; 11-24-2009 at 02:36 PM.
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blue monk is a 12 bar blues (in F or Bb) written by...monk. widely considered a must-know.
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Fair enough Ed. I will read through Book 1 again, and start practicing the stuff in Book 2 as per your instructions. I think I will forgo getting into one of the songbooks for now since I should probably be doing the triads before anything else. I'll let you know how it goes.
Last edited by FatJeff; 11-24-2009 at 04:58 PM.
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Please do, and thanks for your remarks. I'll gradually take you through the whole thing step by step. Granted, triads are not so sexy, but believe me when I tell you that I spent two hours on the first few pages of Book 2 only yesterday with a very advanced jazz musician. I made it my business to know how to blow improvisations on just a targeted C major triad for an hour at a time. This gentleman thought it was going to be easy. It was not. He though it obvious, and that he could do it without effort. He could not. When I teach him next in two weeks, he will have it for sure, though. The only proof that you can actually do or use something, is to do it and then hear if it works--and works consistently. Originally Posted by FatJeff
Book 3 does get richer, though, since you get octatonic pcs, 7th chords with leading-tones for starters. Try singing and improvising on just this: C+MA7: C D# E G G# A# B B C. keep all notes for now resolving upwards to their respective targets as leading tones. Improvise four-measure phrases based on this in two octaves. Very rich stuff for lines! Book 3 applies 10 targeting patterns to each and every of 12 different essenial LJI jazz chords. This is not only the basic vocabulary of LJI targeting, they are the basic harmonic vocabulary of jazz itself--and all tonal music.
Also, I myself found that, although I always tended to play in this manner, I hadn't yet mastered it. So at first when I applied these targeting patterns to reduced melodies of specific tunes (as in the Songbook Series), I would lose the reduced melody in my head, concerned as I was with just remembering the chromatic patterns (couldn't hear the forest for the trees). Among other things, Books 2 and 3 help prepare you with the essential patterns and chords, so that you can later more easily target actual reduced melodies of real and entire tunes.
And that is just the beginning, since as we learn gradually more advanced vocabulary and more advanced targeting patterns, they coalesce in performance in ways that you could never be smart enough to conceptualize out front as such. That is the magic of this process. You shall see; I guarantee this, if you stick with it, and bear with me.
This method has changed the musical lives of a great many professionals and students alike. I'll refrain from dropping names, but some of these people are among the most famous musicians on the scene today. No lie; no exaggeration.Last edited by Ed Byrne; 11-24-2009 at 05:34 PM.
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As stated in the LJI site, instructions, and elsewhere:
The Free Finale Reader Program:
Finale Reader
Open and use all LJI Finale files in this free download/
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FJG great. New stuff creeping in on gigs. Hearing new things, some of which weren't coming easily. Genetically regular mortals' fingers'll know it after some of the voicing workouts.
Having these areas of playing broken down into deliberate workable concepts - central enough that one finds oneself naturally expanding upon them (after much work of course
) - will erase many uncertainties about your role and how to handle yourself in public.
Not wishing to send the wrong message here, but one may take this stuff out before one completely 2nd-natures it, from which much is instantly revealed.
Great fun. Opens up a lot of areas. I really could go on, there's a lot in there.
Along with new & unfamiliar concepts, I found surprises, affirmations of existing approaches (with many new insights and improvements should go without saying), expansions of existing abilities and, importantly began to notice/recognize things about my former comping that I really won't miss at all.
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11-25-2009, 11:08 PM #40CC323 Guest
Hey Ed,
I've downloaded most of the material you have available on Free Jazz Institute's Linear jazz improv page, and I have to say some of it is very difficult. The Blue Monk melody with 16th note lines is really hard. I've been transposing the material through every position but staying in the original key. I'm finding plenty of technical gains that way, and I can hear b2-1 resolutions now (melodically)! Your chromatic approach stuff is really helpful for learning to sight sing romantic era chromatic material, being so chord tone focused. Far more useful (in general; not just for romantic era) than the god awful Modus Novus book.
Thanks for the material! I'll have to check out the Functional Jazz Guitar book soon.
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Waiting to scrap some money together to pick up Ed's books, but I have been working with the material he has posted on Free Jazz Institute and it is really excellent. He is also 100% spot on when he says the answer to 99% problems is picking something and putting in yr time, not more material imo.
Last edited by thebluntman; 11-26-2009 at 04:27 PM.
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I've bought the 3 LJI and the FJG books from Ed, and I find them very good with a lot of valuable information on approach to jazz. I've been playing guitar for close to 40 years, but have been dedicated to jazz for only the last 5-10 years. However, I've been playing fusion or jazz-rock for several years before that.
I have always tried to be melodic in my improvising, but I admitt I have had problems playing that way within the mode-paradigm that rules 99% of the instruction that is provided these days, especially with the rather difficult chord changes fond in a lot of jazz tunes. The mode-paradigm and which-scale-fits-this-chord thinking that comes with it resulted in tedious analysis of changing key centre and changing the scales I used several times during short solos. All in all it made the whole process very intelectual, and not at all melodical.
The method that Ed Byne offers is a rather different one, and I assume that there will be quite a difficult mental paradigm shift to be going through to get it (it defenitely was for me). I will not at all say that I master the LJI approach, but at times I am rather pleased with the result. I also do use the mode way of improvising still, but having more than one approach to use is for me just a bonus.
Anyway: I would recommend it, and I'm pleased that Ed is writing on this forum, as that may make it possible to have a few discussions with him while learning and improving (hopefully
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Cheers,
Gerhard
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Okay, I have just got the book. Here are my thoughts.
I have played guitar for 30 years, most of that jazz, but basically anything anyone will pay me for.
I already know my theory well (but I do have favorite keys)
Here is why I bought the book. No, here is how I have always approached jazz improvisation.
1. Learn the comp.
2. Learn to play the arpeggios in the order they fall in the tune, same with scales.
3. try to follow this whilst improvising.
I found it didn't work; what would happen is if I missed a chord change, it was too late to catch up. They were whizzing by. The band was already 3 chords ahead by the time I realised I had screwed up.
So, I modified this a little; I dropped stage 3. by the time I has internalised all this imformation, i found I could actually do what Chalrlie Parker suggested; Learn the instrument, learn the music, then forget all that, and play!
The problem is, that it was still a bit hit and miss. I don't live in NY. I live in country Australia, and even when I lived in the city the jazz scene was not particularly thriving.
I didn't get to play these tunes every night.
Now, on to FJG. The book starts with guidetones, which is not a foreign concept to me. i first encountered this in a piano-for-horn-players book.
My guitar teachers have always impressed upon me the wisdom of learning from horn players. My best guitar teacher was a pianist. And I have attended workshops by Barney Kessel, Herb Ellis, and John Stowell.
Anyway, as for the value of FJG to the intermediate or advanced improviser, I am undecided; most intermediate plyers already have this stuff under their belts. Miles Donahue, a sax player, has a wonderful book called The Jazz workbook, which I think is a better option, although more advanced, for the guidetone approach.
FJG also has the comps which The Jazz Workbook doesn't.
A big benefit is that everything is written out in 12 keys, which dispite instruction and good intentions, few students will really make the effort to do the transpositions.
There is no TAB. Hurray! Half the book is not wasted on play by numbers!
I personally think that if you need fingerings you should be going through this book with your teacher.
Ed Byrne does offer good support; I have emailed him twice and received prompt replies despite the different time zones.
To sum it up. I am skeptical. I think that if I had had this book 25 years ago I would be a much better player today. I learned this stuff the hard way. If you are just starting to improvise, this book will definaltely help you. No doubt about it. But if you are an intermediate, or advanced player, well I suspect I have wasted my $83 Aus.
I hope not.
Harry
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Really? You wipe the floor with all this stuff before you got it? I'm getting new things out of it, certainly in areas where I already felt solid as well.
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Glad It's working for you. why nor reread my last paragraph. Originally Posted by menialmoose
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It has totally worked for me. I have gone through Books 1-2-3, Blue Funk a couple of times, Speaking of Jazz, and taking now on book 4. I have been practicing now for 1 year and a half. Also taking classes with Ed.
Listen, I am a two-decade-experienced pianist (and as a pianist or guitarist, we should actually learn improv from a wind player) in Brazil with post-grad in Improvisation (Not much, I know) and have been learning the real stuff from Ed. Did very little before him, because all those approaches did very little for me. I wish I had met him 10 years ago...
Linear Jazz has been the most direct bullseye stuff ever for me.
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wow... Long thread! Everybody's giving their impression on those Ed Byrne books.
Well, It's great. The guitar book rules, because it is not one of the frying pan, lotsa scales and fingering books I've seen around. It's great to have an alternative view on your axe than your own, or same instrument people's ones.
Been working on the comp parts of the book, and it has given me a different view on Jazz, Bossa and Funk comping. Great stuff. Endorse that.
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Why is it that everyone pimping these books has only a handful of posts??? Hmm?
Not that I am against them at all - I have worked out of the LJI books and I got something out of them - but come on.
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I do let practice get in the way of forum posting, hate to admit.
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Actually, I have seen some things in this thread that are actually gagging to be addressed.
After some practice.
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