improvising requires an altered state of consciousness - no seriously

[Groyniad]

i've never used play alongs before

i've been using them a lot recently - donna lee first (for ages) then thriving from a riff - on the 'all bird' aebersold

i used to play with a world class alto player (when johnny griffin came to town and heard him he was very serious about how good the guy was) - we all just adored him - he was easy to love - but that has nothing to do with it

he used to say to me - after he started to count something in and i started moaning and squeeking behind him on the bandstand - no, its fine jon honestly - just play it slow - just give it a go - you'll be fine - you can already do it man. and i thought he was just crazy - i felt closer to being able to land a jet airplane or sing ave maria than i felt to being able to relax and play in the real cherokee time that was his home from home.

the problem - once you're at home at 200 say - is that you are too uptight to let yourself go. you want to control what you're doing - you want to be the one who is playing (!) - but you just have to collapse into it and have faith that the music will hold you up (like the backwards falling management trust exercise - yeuch).

it doesn't of course - at least not most of the time - but if you can play i love you happily at 200 then if you relax enough it will indeed support you at least some of the time.

you will find that things happen you never dreamt could. and the critical bit of this is that they happen - you don't do them.

most of us will not expect that anything like this could be a real possibility - and this will mean that we will not often - or ever - give it a chance to happen. i understand why. to give IT a chance to happen will inevitably also be to allow lots of things to happen that you don't want to happen (you will fluff things you are always trying not to fluf) - and this makes us cautious. but, and this is my present point, its worth the risk. the things that will happen (as if by themselves) are just amazing - and that's more important than the crappy bits.

so my point is that if you're waiting to get it all worked out before you try to do it seriously and regularly then you might wait forever. playing really fast brings out the essence of improvising - and it involves surrendering yourself to a very very distinctive and unfamiliar 'state of consciousness'. i don't want to use this technical hippy phrase in a technical hippy sense. i just want to say that to improvise you have to let yourself adopt - or let yourself be overwhelmed by - a whole state of mind. it is to enter into a whole different mental space.

the reason i want to stress this is that i find myself very reluctant to let myself be overwhelmed or taken over in this way. there's the dishes to do and the kids to look after etc. and, more to the point, the scales and exercises to practice.

this reluctance - if given its way - will tend to prevent people from really getting into improvising.

after getting i love you at 200 down - most of the rest is letting yourself give up trying to control the whole thing - letting yourself get carried away.

that's way harder than you might think

[Boston Joe]

after getting i love you at 200 down - most of the rest is letting yourself give up trying to control the whole thing - letting yourself get carried away.

It's even more the case when you're playing with people and not a backing track, since it's never going to go the way you planned it.

[Groyniad]

of course - the backing track is important because it lets you practice letting yourself go in private

one of the reasons performance is so important, i suspect, is that it helps to push you into giving up or letting go

or it can do

of course it (letting go in public) could terrify you so much that you put all your energy into trying to control everything (and then the unpredictability of your bandmates could always seem infuriating to you, however well they were playing)

[Boston Joe]

of course - the backing track is important because it lets you practice letting yourself go in private

Right. But the thing about backing tracks is, if you play the same songs too much, eventually you get used to the background, and you're back in your comfort zone. You're not really letting yourself go. You have to use them sparingly.

[Groyniad]

i think that's exactly right - it can happen when you play the same tunes with the same people too much too

in general i think we try to find ways to avoid letting ourselves go - you can spontaneously co-invent an intro with a bass player and a horn - and then spend the next twenty gigs just repeating it because you collectively can't face just letting something new happen

[wolflen]

in a group setting..it can be contagious .. every now and then..the "magic" happens...you or perhaps someone in the group your playing in..gets in that space..and they turn red hot..and everyone feels it..and it feeds the whole group..and no it doesn't happen "every night"..and you cant "make" it happen..

..

it has been described as being on auto-pilot..the thinking process is gone..and your just playing..you just play..and the energy carries you..

some nights ill start playing and suddenly ill play something that I never played before..now if I stop and ask..what did I just do..the moment is gone..but If I just let it happen..well..

In many "spiritual" disciplines..this type of thing is called different names and different behaviors have been assigned to it..believe it or don't..it dosent matter..the feeling is valid..

If you have felt it..you know..if you haven't .. you don't..

[Groyniad]

absolutely. a real problem is that if it really starts to happen i get so excited that it stops happening.

---

there are strong parallels with talking in public

some academics will be happy to lecture with almost no notes

others will have footnotes to the lecture notes they read from in lectures

----

the issue about tempo i'm focussing on is that the really bright tempos at least strongly encourage you to let go because you haven't got time to control it

(there used to be - still is maybe - a british radio show called 'just a minute' - contestants had to speak for 1 minute on a given topic without repetition or hesitation. the other contestants would buzz when they picked up an example of either and then they would take over (if the challenge was justified) and try to use up the part of the minute that remained. this pushes you into genuine spoken improvisation - the words just have to organize themselves in your mouth so to speak.)

and the joe pass exercise is the other thing. i find that if i try to play continuous streams of 8th notes then it often happens that i get led around through the changes and discover all sorts of harmonic connections i've never heard etc.

you can disconnect these two tricks - so go for continuous 8ths at relatively easy tempos and see if you can get the sense of being dragged or led through the harmony rather than 'constructing' a solo.

[Groyniad]

perhaps its too obvious to point out that its because improvisation requires you to kind of give up (surrender etc.) that so many improvisers have been poly-drug-abusers

the musical state you have to get into is amazing (not pleasant exactly - its too intense to be called that) but its kind of easier and safer to just stay in the ordinary state of mind. intoxication can have a catalytic effect.

[Boston Joe]

In many "spiritual" disciplines..this type of thing is called different names and different behaviors have been assigned to it..believe it or don't..it dosent matter..the feeling is valid..

If you have felt it..you know..if you haven't .. you don't..

A psychologist in Chicago, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, wrote a book called "Flow" that describes this state, and the conditions necessary to understand it. Good book. Worth a read. (It's for a general audience, so not too much jargon).

[destinytot]

Mushin and wu wei. (Intentionally) being with the 'thing' - while letting 'it' be. Beats substance abuse. (Seems worth stating, and worth stating in bold.)Woody Shaw, and Tai Chi:

"Literally, tai chi is defined as the “supreme ultimate” state (“the state of undifferentiated, absolute, and infinite potentiality”) that perpetually maintains the coexistence of unity and duality. Through tai chi, all polarity is harmonized through the balance of yin (the feminine, stillness, or softness) and yang (the masculine, movement, or hardness). As such, tai chi may represent the holistic integration of seemingly disparate parts towards the manifestation and/or fulfillment of a “supreme ultimate” state of unity - the source of infinite potential."
From http://www.woodyshaw.com/blog/2013/9...woody-shaw-iii

[JazzinNY]

Quote Groyniad:
"perhaps its too obvious to point out that its because improvisation requires you to kind of give up (surrender etc.) that so many improvisers have been poly-drug-abusers"

This is a point also that Kenny Werner makes in Effortless Mastery. He stops short of recommending drugs though.

[Groyniad]

i don't mean to be doing that either

its a point about the nature of improvisation i'm after - like Kenny Werner i suspect.

the point is to stress that no amount of working things out and drilling is going to get you there by itself. you also have to be prepared to learn how to let it happen by itself.

the high tempos can really get this across to you because they give you a sense of being swept along or taken over by something (the beat).

[JazzinNY]

Yeah, I wasn't implying you were recommending it either. Same idea -- guys in the past used drugs, but there's gotta be an alternate route to the same thing.

[PMB]

Good post, Groyniad. If I can offer some advice, don't practise along to the Aebersold version of I Love You. I sometimes wonder if Hal Galper preaches a lot about rhythm these days to make up for his awful time feel on that track. Maybe they were all doing coke on the session as it also speeds up unbelievably (compare the beginning and end). Having said that, it was while playing along to the recording many years ago and fighting against the accompaniment that I had the same revelation you expressed. I kind of gave in and started to feel everything in half-time. My lines suddenly had continuity and flow. Soon after, I started to hear the same interaction with fast tempos in Parker and it was a great confirmation (pardon the pun) that I was onto something.

[Thumpalumpacus]

No matter the genre I'm working in, my goal is the same -- get out of your own way and don't play the music, let the music play you.

I am not the potter, I am the clay. The music will tell me where it wants to go. On good nights, I serve as a conduit. On bad nights, I'm the roadblock.

[Thumpalumpacus]

in a group setting..it can be contagious .. every now and then..the "magic" happens...you or perhaps someone in the group your playing in..gets in that space..and they turn red hot..and everyone feels it..and it feeds the whole group..and no it doesn't happen "every night"..and you cant "make" it happen..

..

it has been described as being on auto-pilot..the thinking process is gone..and your just playing..you just play..and the energy carries you..

some nights ill start playing and suddenly ill play something that I never played before..now if I stop and ask..what did I just do..the moment is gone..but If I just let it happen..well..

In many "spiritual" disciplines..this type of thing is called different names and different behaviors have been assigned to it..believe it or don't..it dosent matter..the feeling is valid..

If you have felt it..you know..if you haven't .. you don't..

It's about being in the moment, in the now. Surrendering to the flow. It's more easily done with humans rather than backing tracks, because people are more sensitive even if they don't know that about themselves.

There's a deep spirituality to improv, that can easily crash-and-burn if you haven't done your homework, right? Know your scales and leading tones, know the changes inside-out, and then get out of your own way. Let the song play you.

[Groyniad]

Good post, Groyniad. If I can offer some advice, don't practise along to the Aebersold version of I Love You. I sometimes wonder if Hal Galper preaches a lot about rhythm these days to make up for his awful time feel on that track. Maybe they were all doing coke on the session as it also speeds up unbelievably (compare the beginning and end). Having said that, it was while playing along to the recording many years ago and fighting against the accompaniment that I had the same revelation you expressed. I kind of gave in and started to feel everything in half-time. My lines suddenly had continuity and flow. Soon after, I started to hear the same interaction with fast tempos in Parker and it was a great confirmation (pardon the pun) that I was onto something.

i think parker is uniquely tuned in to this sort of thing - you really can hear the ideas melding into one another (rather than him putting them together)

there is no better place to go than parker-land to discover how to get yourself out of the way of the music (well put thumpa)

[lammie200]

...The music will tell me where it wants to go. On good nights, I serve as a conduit. On bad nights, I'm the roadblock.

I think that is true of art forms in general. Being an artist involves a certain level of discovery and letting discoveries guide one through the process of creating the art form in an organic process. Without that process the end result just seems imitative IMHO. However, that process isn't always intuitive and people stumble with their own misguided notions based on a variety of things - egocentricity being one of them. I see struggles when someone realizes that their work is imitative yet they used their ego as guidance to create it. Its a paradox that results in their frustration. Why be right when one can think that they are being original? Why be original when one can be right? Is being original a result of being right? I am going for coffee now. Seems like the right thing to do for me.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I think that is true of art forms in general. Being an artist involves a certain level of discovery and letting discoveries guide one through the process of creating the art form in an organic process. Without that process the end result just seems imitative IMHO. However, that process isn't always intuitive and people stumble with their own misguided notions based on a variety of things - egocentricity being one of them. I see struggles when someone realizes that their work is imitative yet they used their ego as guidance to create it. Its a paradox that results in their frustration. Why be right when one can think that they are being original? Why be original when one can be right? Is being original a result of being right? I am going for coffee now. Seems like the right thing to do for me.

Love and art have one powerful thing in common, and that is the notion of surrender of ego. It's bloody hard, too. I'm a guy accustomed to climbing onstage in front of an audience -- the premise is that I'm good enough to entertain y'all, and what is that if not ego? Yet as soon as the music starts, if that same ego is hovering around my playing, boy am I in for some trouble.

[Groyniad]

lee konitz too

continuity is the leading symptom

one thing leads straight into another - i.e. you don't put them together but discover that they want to go together etc. etc.

[Reg]

wow... good luck. Not directed at anyone in general, the concept in general.

[destinytot]

Ego sum qui sum, baby.

[christianm77]

[MarkRhodes]

Ego sum qui sum, baby.

I didn't know you were a student of Popeye! ;o)

[destinytot]

I didn't know you were a student of Popeye! ;o)

'Popeye sailoratus' T-shirt!