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That works. Thanks. In the other vid you talked about swinging by playing straight 8ths, but behind. Are you doing some of that here?
I would wonder that that's not basically just offbeat quarter note triplets? I did watch the other video, by the way. My wife walked in while I was watching. She's a musician herself, but commented, " Okay. Enough with the metronome". Ha ha. :-) Short response from me and all, I know, but I was kind of in her area.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-05-2016 at 04:31 PM.
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08-05-2016 10:59 AM
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08-06-2016, 07:46 AM #52destinytot Guest
Nightmare - thank heavens it's only a movie:
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Yes, that's it but the 'behind' I think is a by-product of accuracy on the swung upbeat, and making the quavers straight - it's more like superimposing a straight feel on the upbeat by treating the upbeat as the downbeat, if that makes any sense. I've jazz heard musicians talking about the importance of feeling upbeats as downbeats many times, so that kind of makes sense.
Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
BTW one reason why I dislike alternate picking except where absolutely necessary. It is possible to swing with alternate picking, but IMO it is hard and you are almost fighting against the technique to make it work (reversed alternate or alternate/legato might be worth a punt, though.)
Downstrokes only, I think work better, where possible. Mike Moreno's video reminded me of this way of playing, but it has a venerable history - Charlie Christian, Bill Bauer, Wes (of course), Bucky Pizarelli and loads of other swing guys - even Pat Metheny is a heavy downpicker at moderate tempos. It's also good for tone and projection on acoustic instruments.
Playing it with a click was just trying to make that clear really. Although I do quite like practicing around the click rather than synchronising to it.
In practice, a swing feel might be more unequal. It's all a matter of taste. But I quite like knowing where the extremes are - in practice things might be a little stiff, but in performance you can relax and let things sit naturally.
Philip Catherine's swing feel is more like this than any other guitarist I've heard - very straight, very relaxed on the beat.
Reality is probably more complex, there's no simple panaceas to make a player swing, but I find this kind of feel great fun to play with, and I notice many pianists play with more of this feel. I feel the more rhythmic vocabulary one has the better.
In contrast, it's often a desirable feature for rhythm section players to push the beat slightly - there are different schools of swing here. I'll see if I can track down a brilliant interview with Billy Hart where he discusses ride cymbal patterns.
In terms of comping for soloists, I think this sort of rhythmic understanding is terribly important.Last edited by christianm77; 08-07-2016 at 10:18 AM.
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The bit I was thinking of:
EI: One of my perceptions about Jimmy’s Cobb’s beat is that it feels kind of aggressive or even like it’s rushing.
BH: H’mm. Well. That’s interesting.
There’s a way of playing on top of the beat which makes things happen… like Ron Carter, Tony Williams, or even Louis Hayes …it definitely works and is accurate musically. It’s a definite way of playing and it doesn’t rush. All you have to do is have that attitude. If you don’t have that attitude, it will rush. But if you know what you’re doing, it is just a way of playing. (I have really only become aware of this approach as a clear concept in the last ten years or so.)
Now, Jimmy, that’s not his real way of playing. In fact, I think that Washington, D.C. (where I’m from) has a way of producing drummers that play behind the beat. But Miles tried to get every drummer to play more on top.
EI: Really?
BH: Oh yeah. Definitely!
EI: When I listen to the records I feel that Philly Joe is more laid back on the beat than Jimmy.
BH: It’s a serious conflict if you naturally feel the beat in the front and the bass player feels it behind (or vice versa). There’s a professional way to resolve the situation that explains Philly Joe. If you’re playing behind the beat and you don’t want it to slow down, you play more upbeats. That’s where the shuffle comes in. That’s why the shuffle is valid and correct, because it resolves that situation. If you want to lay back, then you use more shuffles. There’s a certain euphoric sensuality to laying back in certain situations, but you don’t want to lose your erection. To keep it up and lay back at the same time, you shuffle—and Philly Joe was great at that.
EI: Philly Joe’s rim click on the track “Milestones” is pretty on top—unusually so, for him. It’s as ahead as it can be and still feel good.
BH: Well, that was probably Miles. Miles always wanted his drummers to play on top. Same with Stan Getz, even with ballads… I was very uncomfortable playing ballads with Stan Getz since it was never fast enough for him. Never! I grew up playing with Shirley Horn—you can imagine how different that was. A modern day cat who is the same way is Geri Allen. It doesn’t matter what I do. I’ll say to her, “How was that, Geri?” And she’ll say, “Oh, that was great! Except, it still feels like it is slowin’ down.”
EI: What about McCoy Tyner?
BH: Well, he plays on top of the beat. So, if anything, he might be the opposite. He might want you to pull him back a bit. He wants that isometric thing.
EI: Oh, right. Like he had with Elvin, of course.
BH: Absolutely.
EDIT: Having played a dance gig (straight fours) with a student of Ron Carter from New York - I know exactly what BH is talking about here. It's like everything you are playing is dragging, but the tempo is absolutely solid. You have to be on top! I've not yet played with anyone from London who plays like this. Most bass players in London are pretty metronomic.Last edited by christianm77; 08-07-2016 at 01:37 PM.
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Answering Horst's question about how did you approach it;
For me it has always been to record and listen back. It's just about 4 years now. Only in the last year or so did the waters clear and the answer become shockingly simple.
Had a chance to ask Christian McBride how he teaches swing feel to students and his answer was 'you just have feel it'. BS in my book. Not a good answer for a technician of his caliber.
How did you approach it;
A backing track of 12 bar blues in band-in-a-box with just bass, drums and a cheesey keyboard. Rhythm section is Jazz Swing Style ZZJAZZ.STY. Not certain, but I think the bass is modeled after Ron Carter. Drums are 'real drums' which come from recordings and are anything but wooden. Nice thing about the rhythm section is they're always ready and they never bitch no matter what you play.
In the beginning, it was awful but only very briefly. 8 choruses so you get tired and sloppy. Sometimes it's still awful when first learning new tunes but even briefer. Change the key every day. Later change the key and tempo every day.
If blues is a cornerstone of what we play here it needs to become part of your soul so you never look like a poser regardless of the circumstances. This seemed a required starting point. Record every day.
I have huge respect for the posters here on the forum and would not be playing at the current level if not for some of the information found here. There are some great posts in this thread alone from Christian and Matt and others. On the B side, having opinions is what makes this site bring out its best. Matt's comment about music from the 60's onward having 'no concept of compound meter' in my book is not right. A great deal of popular music swings and that is precisely why it sells. Before reading post #55 about Billy Hart the Billy and Hart I was thinking about were Billy Kreutzman and Mickey Hart as just one example. All the Grateful Dead's music swings and that is exactly why they were popular and why Branford said he loved those guys and loved playing with them. Your Cannonball 'Bach Chorales' 4/4 time it's not. With 2 drummers there's often a lot going on rhythmically.
Christian touched on the answer to the original 2 questions when he said; “ the 'behind' is a by-product of the swing upbeat”
In my coach's playbook the answer is not one-trip-let times 4 each measure. That still serves up Bach.
For swing the answer is as simple as counting Half Time triplets over the 4/4 the bass is serving up. That is your starting point. The Dancers you listen to have many more sophisticated steps but that is the fundamental starting point. When the rhythm section is serving it up in 2 count and play ½ time triplets not 123, 123, 123, 123. With no stress or burnt down brain cells you will be behind the beat as a by-product, precisely where you should be, on both good days and bad days.
When the rhythm section goes to 4 now you can do the 123, 123 thing but your feel and your counting will develop so you know where to drop your notes. All this stuff is happening fast so just playing along doesn't cut it. You have to record and make adjustments to your latency to get down to the millisecond level required.
Also, on things like the slower Bassie piece above, you will sometimes be counting 1 (& trip let) when the drummer is intentionally going late as he stirs soup with his brushes. You still play on the 'trip' but use the & to stay in synch. This is a little more advanced dance step for variety.Last edited by 39cord; 08-09-2016 at 04:25 AM.
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not exactly what I was saying. Originally Posted by 39cord
I meant what I said: that it is absolutely POSSIBLE, depending on what you actually listen to, to grow up in more common eras and not have a sense of compound meter. In generations before, this was not as much the case. Much more of popular music had swing time, waltz time and compound meters. Straight eighths and 4/4 predominate the last 60 years or so in my opinion. I grew up in the 70s and 80s , and my perception, just my personal opinion , is that this entire time period in popular music was very straight ahead and very much based in straight 8ths. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
I never said there wasn't compound meter, merely that it was more pervasive in all of music, popular or otherwise, in previous generations.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-09-2016 at 09:08 AM.
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Just a great thread all. I really like what Christian says about the location of the upbeat and its relation to the beat.
I'm wondering if any of you practice actually placing the metronome on that last triplet either on every beat or on the a of 1 and 3 for instance? - so that a) you have to feel the location of the downbeat yourself and b) you simply have to subdivide.
Anyway - playing Lil' Darlin like that brings out the sunshine!
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Yes I have practiced this exercise in the past. It's a bit of a headf**k until you get into it. :-) Originally Posted by gator811
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Definitely - but when you get it the whole feel changes. I think it has everything to do with your comment about how we feel and play the actual downbeats to make the upbeat 'sit' when so much Western pedagogy dictates the other way around. Originally Posted by christianm77
Not that there's anything wrong with putting the click on the beat, but its a starting point and can become a crutch.
Also why I love the example of Lil Darlin'....those 1/4 notes are like a ball bouncing in slow motion
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Boing boing boing boing
To everyone - read the Billy Hart interview if you haven't already, there's so much important info in there.
BH: Back to bebop drumming: There is a formula I’ve put together from some things that Stan Getz told me. You know, Stan Getz, he’s such a rival… he’d try to break people. And he could. Because he had so much experience and he played so good all the time. So for about six months, he put his arm around my shoulders and said, “Billy, this is one of the greatest musical experiences I’ve had.” And then one time, we got off the bandstand, he put his arm around my shoulders and said, “You know, Billy, if anyone knows what you’re trying to do, God knows that I know what you’re trying to do. But man, it’s just not working.”
He ended up coming up with some phrases that I still use to this day. He said, “Undulate, motherfucker, undulate.” Now, when I say that to students, they say, “Well, what does that mean?” And I say, “Well, man, look it up in the dictionary. Investigate this.”
Have you ever seen a definition of undulation? It means waves – waves of energy, you can see it moving on a graph. Reminds me of, when you’re in a hospital, and you look at the screen, and it’s going like that – you’re alive. If it’s going like this, you’re dead. That’s what undulation means.
Now, how did I interpret that for the cymbal ride? What it was – and I think I’m pretty close to it — is the shuffle, because it covers both the two and three.
Okay, so you say “bebop…”
You have these upbeats, bing, bing, bing, bing-KA-bing, bing-KA-bing. The tendency, I guess from a European classical perspective, is to say, okay, the upbeats are the “and” of one, the “and” of two, the “and” of three. [Even eighths.] Well, in jazz, that upbeat is part of a triplet. In other words, a perfect upbeat triplet is a shuffle. It’s that upbeat – da-DUT, da-DUT, da-DUT. So that’s what Stan was trying to tell me.
EI: Having four and six at the same time, which of course is an African type of thing.
BH: There’s no reason to discuss this from any other perspective. We’re talking about so-called “jazz” because of the Afro-American contribution. Purely. You can’t have an Afro-American contribution if it comes from China.
EI: Is it too reductionist to say that to undulate, you need to imply both the four and the six at the same time?
BH: Yeah, that sounds right. Definitely. Something like that. I have to think about how to answer that more specifically, but the answer is yes. But also what it does is that it creates a texture, a texture that feels good, that breathes. When people talk about keeping time, they talk about how good it feels. How good it feels – that implies a texture. And having a simultaneous two and three is one of the most clear ways of producing that texture that people like.
I mean, there’s all kinds of textures, but the one that seems to be more classic, and of a higher level or class, is Billy Higgins playing with Cedar Walton. And before that, the impression I get from talking to people is that that’s what they got from Philly Joe. And then when I talk to people older than that, they’ll say Kenny Clarke. They stop talking about any full-blown European concept of technique, and they talk about texture, how it feels, how it falls.
So when I play, I try to emulate that as far as I understand it. And so then I get complements from people, say somebody like Ben Street – you know, he doesn’t really describe what it is he likes about my playing, but I feel like it helps acoustically, it helps people who play acoustic instruments particularly.
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Yo Horszt, any this info been useful to you?
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Mike Brecker on time from around 6:00:
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Talking about Billy Hart, Michael Brecker and other guys too too - Lovano and Liebman.
Billy had a night...
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Practicing over this is fun
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Tried counting to this: . Got seriously lost Originally Posted by christianm77
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Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Horszt seems to have left the building but a great stream of ideas none the less. Especially the Billy Hart interview.
Insiders should no longer refer to the 3 on 4 rhythm as swing but should use the Stan Getz term, to undulate. This is now a Getzian term like a Yogi-ism (e.g., deja vu all over again). It has a very specific meaning in the lexicon. To play with polyrhythm. So what we are talking about here in this thread is how to learn to undulate, maybe like pole dancing or a cobra swaying to a flute.
On a more serious note, my feeling on how to teach undulating to those trying to master the swing feel is to count 3 over 8 when the bass player is playing a medium tempo with 2 notes per measure. This simplifies Christian's approach explained in post #44 using bold type. When played straight, the drummer will be dropping the hi-hat on every 'trip' as the soloist counts.
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Not sure if I understand. Originally Posted by 39cord
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With the rhythm section at a medium tempo the bass player is commonly playing only 2 notes per measure, straight 4/4 counting, so 1234, 1234 would be 2 measures with the notes on 1 & 3.
Drummer is commonly doing the polyrhythm thing where they cover or imply both the 4/4 time and the ¾ time.
In your earlier explanation(s) you show the soloist counting; 123, 123, 123, 123 with every other count in bold. This is a great explanation.
On the other hand, for me there is still a good chance for someone just starting out that they play straight time when counting that way.
My take is simply to count only the bold notes in your example. Half time triplets.
For song after song the half time approach will generally synch you, the soloist, up with the dropping of the hi-hat which does not play on every triplet group but only every other group. This counting approach is not in the 4/4 meter but the ¾ so you break free of straight time.Last edited by 39cord; 08-15-2016 at 06:24 PM.
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I kind of practice that. I think it's good to make sure the triplets are properly locked in though.
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Agreed on being locked in but when providing guidance for a player trying to make the transition distillation of approaches is the art of a good teacher/coach.
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As an example here is a practice piece. Half time triplets are the only way I've found to navigate this and carry accurate rhythm. Some spots are tough. Usain Bolt could probably run 200m in the time it takes me to cover 100.
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Four on Six is a tough tune. I always forget when I call it haha. But it is a great one to play on guitar led gigs because it has such a clear form with nice breaks and riffs and things.
It's extremely important to lock in each rhythm and not to approximate them. The counting using the lowest common denominator (12/8 for the quarter and half note triplets for example) is the way I have practiced this. Mike Longo and Jonathon Kreisberg use the same approach in their videos, so I think it's pretty standard. Once that's nailed down you can relax into it. But only then.
You know what I discovered the other day? That if I intuit the clave, I rush it.
One of the basic rhythms of music. I have to count it - you know 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 | 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 (additive hats and houses counting.) Then, and only then, I nail it. I know this because I recorded myself.
The more I learn and the better I get, the more obsessed I am become with locking down the absolute fundamentals. Location of the upbeats, changes clearly outlined, melodies played with strength and detail, basic rhythmic vocabulary locked in at all tempos.Last edited by christianm77; 08-16-2016 at 05:29 PM.
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