The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Pasquale Grasso says in his master class that he does not like to play arpeggios as discreet staccato individual constituent notes. He divides it into two aspects: the first note and a three note chord--- The first Note is played and then the chord is strummed with the down stroke, in one continuous motion. So, basically, it's one note followed by a Chord.

    CM7. = C plus E minor triad.
    C-7. = C plus EbM triad.
    C°= C plus Gb-6 three note chord

    etc

    starting with the 3rd

    CM9. E plus GM triad
    C-9. Eb plus G- triad

    starting with the 5th

    CM11. G plus B° triad
    C-11. G plus BbM triad

    starting with the 7th

    CM7 B plus CM triad
    C-7. Bb plus C- triad

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  3. #2

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    Thanks, interesting...

    But what for? What's behind it?



    CM9. E plus GM triad
    What if I play just E-7 instead?
    I mean I do not see how it effect musical ideas - like phrasing...?


    To me it's more important to understand the quality of interval in arpeggio... and where these intervals are to use them in harmony and rythm context... especially importan the ferst note and its realtions to others


    so maj7

    starting with B is b2nd , 3rd, b3rd, 3rd - here I have lead tone at the beginning - that's the first thing to think of
    starting with G I would first think of the 4th relations Ias basic here like G-C, B-E
    starting with E is the most '3rd- made' for me - because we have at the bottom teh note that works well hear both in 6th and 5th which are in defferent harmonic dimensions but both 3rd related intervals...

  4. #3

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    What's the point of his idea? Like Jonah says where's the phrasing?

  5. #4

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    I must've missed this. Could you point me to the moment in the masterclass that he says this?

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by JazzMuzak
    I must've missed this. Could you point me to the moment in the masterclass that he says this?
    the last five minutes of part two. His last most important point after discussing the Barry Harris stuff . The point is to get rid of that horrible staccato arpeggiated sound, and make it sound like one continuous run .

  7. #6

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    I'll say try it play a CM7 Aroeggio this way

    Play the E , 2nd pos, 4th string
    Slide up to the 3rd pos, and play a GM triad root position ( strummed with a down stroke)

    Play the G, 5th pos, 4th string
    Slide up to the 6th pos and strum a B dim triad, root position.

    Note + chord strum sounds different than a basic staccato Aroeggio

  8. #7
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    the last five minutes of part two. His last most important point after discussing the Barry Harris stuff . The point is to get rid of that horrible staccato arpeggiated sound, and make it sound like one continuous run .
    I haven't tried it (yet - because I will), but thanks for drawing attention to this crucial section.
    Last edited by destinytot; 07-26-2016 at 02:03 PM. Reason: spelling

  9. #8

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    I've got the impression that he might primarily do this when he wants to do one of those long low to high ascending arpeggio sweeps that he tends to do in his chord melody work. I don't hear him do it as much when he's purely soloing in a band context.

  10. #9
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by JazzMuzak
    I've got the impression that he might primarily do this when he wants to do one of those long low to high ascending arpeggio sweeps that he tends to do in his chord melody work. I don't hear him do it as much when he's purely soloing in a band context.
    +1

  11. #10
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I guess the technical skill required with the left-hand is the ability to play one note and then immediately PLANT all three notes of the triad in one fell swoop.

    The right-hand just sweeps across. But the left-hand has to be sufficiently planted in place in time.
    Talking about the left hand, and about runs, he says: "Even if I mess up everything here, that has to be the note. So it's from here to here. Sometimes it's easy to find the fingering. but it really depends from the way that you can stretch."

  12. #11

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    NSJ,

    when you refer to pos. you mean where the 2nd finger frets? like in classical?

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    NSJ,

    when you refer to pos. you mean where the 2nd finger frets? like in classical?
    First finger. The first finger determines the position .

  14. #13
    destinytot Guest
    Pasquale's ascending run is actually in this trailer @1m30 - please take a look:
    Last edited by destinytot; 07-27-2016 at 02:49 AM.

  15. #14

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    Actually, that's part of what Pasquale says.
    Oh putting me and him in one post is really a control shot.

    He has what I call 'spider-hands'... I met this kind of guys on guitar and on lute... they strectch and twist all the way... and they always speak about connection of technique and hands type or size...

    We - guys with compact.. you know... 'boxing hands' - have to avoid this topic.



    BTW The guy is fantastic virtuoso and master... but I never felt interested in him musically.. though I tried to approach it a few times.

  16. #15
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    ...a control shot.
    Googled that phrase: Re: "controlling shot"
    Sorry - I'll edit.

    Again, I'm very grateful for the OP's perceptive and very helpful observation, which throws light on how Pasquale Grasso pulls off dazzling low-to-high runs (such as the particular one to which I've tried to draw attention).

    I'm still dazzled and overawed, but - thanks to the OP - what previoisly seemed impossible now (just) seems....​difficult.

  17. #16

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    Googled that phrase: Re: "controlling shot"
    Sorry - I'll edit.
    I did not try to check it... I did not know it was specifically Russian expression

    Again, I'm very grateful for the OP's perceptive and very helpful observation, which throws light on how Pasquale Grasso pulls off dazzling low-to-high runs (such as the particular one to which I've tried to draw attention).

    I'm still dazzled and overawed, but - thanks to the OP - what previoisly seemed impossible now (just) seems....​difficult.
    +1

    I will definitely practice this arpeggios patteren separately to get incorporated im my playing.


    In every pattern it is important to have it organized in this or that way like for example when I played diagonal arpeggio in Cmaj7 for example in one of teh vids above ... when I practiced it I just had the system where I always play the root with the 2nd finger.. so I just had to determine where I make shifts (same concept for other 7th chords)
    Same thing with any other patterns...

    I think one of the benifites of Pasquale's approach is how he explains it: 'one +triad in sweep', it is easy to organize and a good...
    And musically it's a good tool to play the chord arpeggiato in a harmonic style...

  18. #17
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    I did not try to check it... I did not know it was specifically Russian expression



    +1

    I will definitely practice this arpeggios patteren separately to get incorporated im my playing.


    In every pattern it is important to have it organized in this or that way like for example when I played diagonal arpeggio in Cmaj7 for example in one of teh vids above ... when I practiced it I just had the system where I always play the root with the 2nd finger.. so I just had to determine where I make shifts (same concept for other 7th chords)
    Same thing with any other patterns...

    I think one of the benifites of Pasquale's approach is how he explains it: 'one +triad in sweep', it is easy to organize and a good...
    And musically it's a good tool to play the chord arpeggiato in a harmonic style...
    (Before heading off for my last day of work before holidays - )I pay great attention to your general comments about the art of music (because I find them insightful and informed), and what you say about organised and precise technique is wise and sensible advice.

    PS Props to NSJ for spotting this neat 'trick' and thinking it through - it was no secret, but I was blinded to it by my own amazement.
    Last edited by destinytot; 07-27-2016 at 03:18 AM.

  19. #18

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    If you slow it down you'll notice his execution isn't actually very precise (perhaps what he means by 'if I mess up') and rhythmically not very even. But the overall effect is that the arpeggio is smoother and more legato than if every note was absolute pinpoint accurate.

    Obviously this something that comes from solo piano playing of the Art Tatum/Bud Powell tradition. Barry Harris talks about moving the whole hand rather than passing the thumb like a classical pianist might. Pasquale has come up with the equivalent thing on guitar.

    I don't really understand the fingerings described here, but I'll dig into it when I get home.

  20. #19

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    If you slow it down you'll notice his execution isn't actually very precise (perhaps what he means by 'if I mess up') and rhythmically not very even. But the overall effect is that the arpeggio is smoother and more legato than if every note was absolute pinpoint accurate
    I did not mean musical precision or accuracy (even rythm and all), Christian.. if you refer to my previous comments...


    Though when you practice.. if you really practice you should be pricise with that too...


    but playing music is different...

  21. #20

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    OK, so these patterns are not a million miles away from the typical Django style arpeggios I use already, in that you have three notes on a string, then a sweep with lots of shifting. Mechanically very similar as far as the right hand is concerned.

    Big difference conceptually is to use the single note + triad breakdown, which works very well.

    Also (if you slide the final note) the Django arpeggio is executable with 2 right hand fingers and very little stretching. Kind of the reductio ad absurdum of what PG talks about then he talks about fingerings.

    I've chosen a Gm6 arp for my own. The triad shape is not a standard triad type - kind of a Maj3rd with a Maj2nd on top, or a majb5 if you prefer.

    Here is teh tabz:

    Pasquale Grasso--- dividing up the arpeggio into 2 elements-arpeggio-fingering-jpg

    I will have a bash at these when I get back and maybe pop up a vid if I am happy with the results.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-27-2016 at 09:22 AM.

  22. #21

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    Another thing I have noticed about ascending runs, is you can be a little messy and inexact, but as long as you nail the last 2 or 3 notes the run will sound good. I feel this is true of PG's playing here - the last few notes pop out. These are the ones that are conventionally fingered with a separate finger per note.

    The important thing with any fast playing is to 'chunk' things together and work out what's important to pop out.

    OTOH Every run of Django's I've ever slowed down is completely accurate with no fluffs at any speed (!)
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-27-2016 at 09:21 AM.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    First finger. The first finger determines the position .
    Strictly speaking, the fret below the 2nd finger is the position, since the 1st finger can easily play a fret below the position. If, for instance, you play an F major scale with low F on the 1st fret, 6th string, then play the G with the 2nd finger and the A with the 4th finger, and continue that pattern for the Bb, C and D on the 5th string, you're actually in 2nd position, even though you're starting both strings with the 1st finger 1st fret. The 1st and 4th fingers "stretch" while maintaining the hand position.

  24. #23

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    Strictly speaking, the fret below the 2nd finger is the position, since the 1st finger can easily play a fret below the position. If, for instance, you play an F major scale with low F on the 1st fret, 6th string, then play the G with the 2nd finger and the A with the 4th finger, and continue that pattern for the Bb, C and D on the 5th string, you're actually in 2nd position, even though you're starting both strings with the 1st finger 1st fret. The 1st and 4th fingers "stretch" while maintaining the hand position.
    Exactly... that's why actually if you play classical you get used to keep 2nd finger as reference... also there's techical point behind... 2nd finger is approx ooposite the thumb... so this is how you 'grab' the neck basically... the point of balance of position...

    This understanding of position you give here also exactly represents what I was trying to say in clips above on playing everything (including streches slides and shifs) from point of view of positions

  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    Strictly speaking, the fret below the 2nd finger is the position, since the 1st finger can easily play a fret below the position. If, for instance, you play an F major scale with low F on the 1st fret, 6th string, then play the G with the 2nd finger and the A with the 4th finger, and continue that pattern for the Bb, C and D on the 5th string, you're actually in 2nd position, even though you're starting both strings with the 1st finger 1st fret. The 1st and 4th fingers "stretch" while maintaining the hand position.
    Interesting. Thanks.

  26. #25

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    OK, if I understand correctly this is how I would practice the arpeggio. I would practice it in stages rather than slow it down:

    Pasquale Grasso--- dividing up the arpeggio into 2 elements-arpeggio-practice_0002-jpg

    Here is a video of me practicing it and then rambling on for a bit:



    I'm not sure if I've totally got that 'brrrrrr' thing down - it gets better as I go on I think.