Pasquale Grasso--- dividing up the arpeggio into 2 elements

[NSJ]

OK, if I understand correctly this is how I would practice the arpeggio. I would practice it in stages rather than slow it down:

Attachment 34095

Here is a video of me practicing it and then rambling on for a bit:

I'm not sure if I've totally got that 'brrrrrr' thing down - it gets better as I go on I think.

Yes, your musical notation above is exactly how I described the chords initially.

I practice that like you started to at around in seven minutes and 10 seconds in your video . Interesting to note that you say you're playing gets better at the end. I think that's why .

I believe the technical term, quite possibly used in classical guitar, is called planting . That means really getting the left-hand shifts into the triad down really really solidly and practicing the shit out of them. Pasquale alludes to this in many places in his video, basically saying if you can get the left hand stuff all worked out, then all you need to do is just concentrate on the right hand, and make interesting patterns using either hybrid picking or fingerpicking.

I'm convinced that my teacher would be very critical of Pasquale's "don't worry if you mess up in between". I know he would have me practicing the planting 1 million times to make sure that there is no messing up in between.

[christianm77]

Yes, your musical notation above is exactly how I described the chords initially.

I practice that like you started to at around in seven minutes and 10 seconds in your video . Interesting to note that you say you're playing gets better at the end. I think that's why .

I believe the technical term, quite possibly used in classical guitar, is called planting . That means really getting the left-hand shifts into the triad down really really solidly and practicing the shit out of them. Pasquale alludes to this in many places in his video, basically saying if you can get the left hand stuff all worked out, then all you need to do is just concentrate on the right hand, and make interesting patterns using either hybrid picking or fingerpicking.

I'm convinced that my teacher would be very critical of Pasquale's "don't worry if you mess up in between". I know he would have me practicing the planting 1 million times to make sure that there is no messing up in between.

I agree. I think I was working it out as I went along.

PS: 7m10s wow - you made it that far? ;-)

Basically if you didn't get to the end I think the independence of the fingers and the sharpness of the position shifts is basically what marks out PG's playing. It's not so much that this is essential for jazz guitar in general (if it was I would have to have it down by now, right) but rather this kind of technical development makes it possible for him to do what he does which is actually pretty unprecedented.

Which is pretty much what the others on this thread have said.

[NSJ]

I agree. I think I was working it out as I went along.

PS: how - you made it that far? ;-)

Basically if you didn't get to the end I think the independence of the fingers and the sharpness of the position shifts is basically what marks out PG's playing. It's not so much that this is essential for jazz guitar in general (if it was I would have to have it down by now, right) but rather this kind of technical development makes it possible for him to do what he does which is actually pretty unprecedented.

Which is pretty much what the others on this thread have said.

I'll just quote what my teacher said, "ultimately, fundametal technical problems on the instrument become right-hand problems; the left-hand? Obviously, you either make the note or you don't. The right hand is where the magic happens. "

The dexterity and the Independence of the fingers that Pasquale it has comes from the Chuck Wayne hybrid picking and classical right-hand development he got when he formally studied classical guitar in Bologna.

I only practice and play with the fingers, so all that intervals and dyads that Pasquale notes in the video that harmonize the Barry Harris major or minor sixth scale, i've always practiced these.

You have to be able, as Pasquale notes, to have a solid Chuck Wayne like hybrid picking and/or classical fingerpicking style down. Obviously he has it in spades.

The guy has a monster right hand.

[christianm77]

I'll just quote what my teacher said, "ultimately, fundametal technical problems on the instrument become right-hand problems; the left-hand? Obviously, you either make the note or you don't. The right hand is where the magic happens. "

The dexterity and the Independence of the fingers that Pasquale it has comes from the Chuck Wayne hybrid picking and classical right-hand development he got when he formally studied classical guitar in Bologna.

I only practice and play with the fingers, so all that intervals and dyads that Pasquale notes in the video that harmonize the Barry Harris major or minor sixth scale, i've always practiced these.

You have to be able, as Pasquale notes, to have a solid Chuck Wayne like hybrid picking and/or classical fingerpicking style down. Obviously he has it in spades.

The guy has a monster right hand.

Hmmmm - maybe. But the primary focus of much of my technical work for the past few months has been left hand. I don't think it's that simple, I always neglected it TBH. Since I have worked on it, I can feel my playing open up.

True PG's right hand is fabbo too. But from a pick only point of view, he's choosing what to me is a very simple, straightforward solution. Which I like.

[Jonah]

I finally checked Pasquale's videos carefully.

Pasquale plays it mostly in his solo playing is using arpeggio as an embelishment... kind of Vorschlag (grace notes) which uses the notes of the arpeggiato chord...

So there's the main note and secondery notes involved in this embelishment...
that's where ignoranace of 'messing up' comes from... hammer no/off too.. these secondary notes are note so important - they are used to bring in necessary harmonic effect and to make a fill-in...

Christian you play it as a line - very fast - but still a line.. BTW great accuracy and precision... you are really an agile player...
I never had it.


NOTE:
Whatever Pasquale does it for... I see no problem of using this pattern in any opther style of playing...
It's one of the ways to organize arpeggio playing

[Jonah]

'Vorschlag' is a lovely word to my ears - nicer than 'appoggiatura'.

))))

Actually in Russian language mostly musical terms are borrowed from German (as well as Italian) - sometimes translated, sometimes just translitterated... so we say vorschlag or nachshpiel like in German...

It's probably because musical theoretical school here was mostly established on Tchaikosky's book on harmony - and he was strongly influenced by German music.


TBH it is very important point... I norticed that in English and French theoretical terminolgies are often different (both countries had their own musical traditions but they were on top in much earlier days than German or Russian)...
and sometimes there is not even a term for some notions which are very common for me... or terms seem to be too oblique... too general... When I discuss sonata form or Bach's music with English -speaking people sometimes I have to use descriptions where I have a term in Russian or German

On the other hand English has developed vocabulary for pop and jazz theory... the reason is obvious... it's American music.

when I speak with Russians about jazz theory I often have to invent the term or just use English term..

[Jonah]

For example...

Parallel key in English is the key with same root e.g. C -major to C minor
Relative key a key with the same notes but different root in English is C major to A minor

In Russian and German
Parallel key is C major to Am
'Same-name' key is C major to C minor... (in German they say Varianttonart)

You can see that the term 'parallel' has contrary mraning...

But if we think about it we can see that actually both ways of using these terms reflect some semantical concept behind it...


And sorry for off-top

[destinytot]

Great stuff, Jonah. I've come across 'Schlagbaum' (and odd words such as 'Butterbrot) while travelling - and influences work both ways ('bistro' / 'быстро' - I'm learning to read Cyrillic in order to learn Russian ). I think it's important to appreciate these nuances for the sake of interpretation and expressiveness.

Actually, I would argue that the most effective way to make a person irrelevant - and this applies equally to Pasquale Grasso - is by calling them 'special' or 'exotic', and by putting them on a pedestal.

[Jonah]

yeh even many Russians do not know that 'bistro' is coming from Russian... bcecause when meaning a bistro we pronounce it in a different manner))) French-like

[Jonah]

Actually, I would argue that the most effective way to make a person irrelevant - and this applies equally to Pasquale Grasso - is by calling them 'special' or 'exotic', and by putting them on a pedestal.

Partly it's coming from business issues... you should be original to be noticed... and unfortunately people notice any original feature .. not necessarily musical

[christianm77]

Christian you play it as a line - very fast - but still a line.. BTW great accuracy and precision... you are really an agile player...
I never had it.

Thanks man. And yes - I agree I play it as a line, not a gesture... Something to get my head around.

[christianm77]

Great stuff, Jonah. I've come across 'Schlagbaum' (and odd words such as 'Butterbrot) while travelling - and influences work both ways ('bistro' / 'быстро' - I'm learning to read Cyrillic in order to learn Russian ). I think it's important to appreciate these nuances for the sake of interpretation and expressiveness.

Actually, I would argue that the most effective way to make a person irrelevant - and this applies equally to Pasquale Grasso - is by calling them 'special' or 'exotic', and by putting them on a pedestal.

Absolutely. PG's moved the goalposts, and I'm keen to play!

[destinytot]

yeh even many Russians do not know that 'bistro' is coming from Russian... bcecause when meaning a bistro we pronounce it in a different manner))) French-like

Next time I'm at a bistro with a supercilious waiter, I'll use that word to get quicker service. (Waiter's epitaph: 'He finally caught God's eye.')

Another word that fascinates me is the Russian for train station: 'вокзал' - 'Vauxhall'.

[NSJ]

Absolutely. PG's moved the goalposts, and I'm keen to play!

I re-watched your video again this morning, and now I guess it's good to refocus on what you say at the end about left hand versus right hand.

Maybe it's due to the very difficult pieces that classical guitarists perform, such that they have to really focus on their left hand movements from a technical point of view in order to play the piece in time and tempo.

When I was learning some classical pieces, it was made very important to me from the very start the importance of planting and being where you need to be before you need to there .

Pasquale makes the point in this video earlier on when he shows you how to practice transitioning from one inversion to the other inversion.

Hey says to always play in Tempo--- Play the first inversion on the one, be able to arrive at the second inversion on the two, but don't play the second inversion until you reach the three. And then use the Four to get to where you need to be for the next chord.

I mean, that's really simple stuff, but stuff that a lot of us tend to forget and gloss over .

[christianm77]

I re-watched your video again this morning, and now I guess it's good to refocus on what you say at the end about left hand versus right hand.

Maybe it's due to the very difficult pieces that classical guitarists perform, such that they have to really focus on their left hand movements from a technical point of view in order to play the piece in time and tempo.

When I was learning some classical pieces, it was made very important to me from the very start the importance of planting and being where you need to be before you need to there .

Pasquale makes the point in this video earlier on when he shows you how to practice transitioning from one inversion to the other inversion.

Hey says to always play in Tempo--- Play the first inversion on the one, be able to arrive at the second inversion on the two, but don't play the second inversion until you reach the three. And then use the Four to get to where you need to be for the next chord.

I mean, that's really simple stuff, but stuff that a lot of us tend to forget and gloss over .

Sure. Great warm ups as well....

My left hand was perfectly good for what I was doing before - mostly melodic/single string stuff. In fact, I still teach three fingers and lots of sliding for my Gypsy Jazz students simply because it is the approach most GJ players use and I think it sounds better for that music. Same for the Charlie Christian tradition right up to Pat Metheny. That's what I think of as the 'horn tradition.'

However, digging into a more chordal style one is going to need to focus on a classical left hand. It's the only way to do things if that's your vibe - the 'piano tradition' - Dick McDonough, Van Eps through to Jimmy Wyble etc. Interestingly, I've become more drawn towards this recently.

I'm not even sure why. PG certainly was an influence, but I've been playing a lot with just bass and bass/drums, and I feel I want a bit more flexibility. Also been listen to a lot of Ed Bickert recently. He's a master at seamlessly combining chords and melody when soloing.

Hopefully I will get to the point where I can swap seamlessly between both left hand approaches, and between comping and soloing without there being a 'hard edge.'

Which isn't to say a good melody played with good time needs chords.

[christianm77]

For me, your video on this thread is a great example of such a victory. I do wish more people would share videos showing practice/procedure and reflections...

We are never a finished product. And yet we are pushed into presenting ourselves as if we are.

Speaking of which, I've just downloaded an album Lage Lund played on back in 2007 (Mis en Bouteille a New York) - pure bop with a modern tinge... It's interesting to compare his playing then to now - very different style.

He's a guy who is always evolving, always seems to have some new chords or something he's working on. I love it.

[NSJ]

Sure. Great warm ups as well....

My left hand was perfectly good for what I was doing before - mostly melodic/single string stuff. In fact, I still teach three fingers and lots of sliding for my Gypsy Jazz students simply because it is the approach most GJ players use and I think it sounds better for that music. Same for the Charlie Christian tradition right up to Pat Metheny. That's what I think of as the 'horn tradition.'

However, digging into a more chordal style one is going to need to focus on a classical left hand. It's the only way to do things if that's your vibe - the 'piano tradition' - Dick McDonough, Van Eps through to Jimmy Wyble etc. Interestingly, I've become more drawn towards this recently.

I'm not even sure why. PG certainly was an influence, but I've been playing a lot with just bass and bass/drums, and I feel I want a bit more flexibility. Also been listen to a lot of Ed Bickert recently. He's a master at seamlessly combining chords and melody when soloing.

Hopefully I will get to the point where I can swap seamlessly between both left hand approaches, and between comping and soloing without there being a 'hard edge.'

Which isn't to say a good melody played with good time needs chords.

You have a nice way with words. The horn tradition versus the piano tradition. Succinctly stated but it says a lot.

Jimmy Wyble was a western swing guy who played lines like a horn with the Texas playboys and then had ideas about counterpoint and improvisation and counterpoint and Two line movement. There was a point 50-60 years ago when he and my teacher had a series of conversations. My teacher finally convinced him that for what he wanted to do musically, he needed to study classical guitar formally. So Jimmy wound up studying with the Brazilian guy who was playing with the modern Jazz Quartet at the time . And my teacher flew to LA to havehim meet with someone from the Ramirez guitars and get him set up with a very nice classical guitar .( he himself had made the same transition-- being a jazz guy who studied classical guitar formally a few years earlier, on the advice of Harry Belafonte, whom he was comping for at various gigs).

There is another apt term, "texturizing", that this really excellent guitarist out of Portland, Oregon named Christopher Woitach uses. I'm going to be taking a couple Skype lessons from him, one on dyads and another guide tones . I'm really looking forward to this.

My entire goal has been to play pianistically on the guitar . I can finally start to see a light at the end of the Tunnel.

[destinytot]

We are never a finished product. And yet we are pushed into presenting ourselves as if we are.

I really enjoyed the video of Andy Brown playing solo jazz guitar ('at the Whiskey Lounge') - fingerstyle, on a Gibson Tal Farlow - and I'd like to do more than imagine what a little of Pasquale's approach might make possible. (No better question, for me, than "What if..?")

[wagz]

Pasquale Grasso says in his master class that he does not like to play arpeggios as discreet staccato individual constituent notes. He divides it into two aspects: the first note and a three note chord--- The first Note is played and then the chord is strummed with the down stroke, in one continuous motion. So, basically, it's one note followed by a Chord.

Thanks for bringing this up, NSJ. I still haven't completely finished watching his masterclass, yet. So much to learn..