Untidy playing and how to deal with it

[christianm77]

Well it's heartening that most of the stuff being said here is kind of stuff I've been thinking about. Some things also that I used to practice but have neglected for a year or so and could probably benefit from revisiting.

---LONG POST---- ;-)

Phrasing and detail

Regarding the phrasing and articulation thing - watching that Moreno vid was really good, because he is keen to emphasise how important it is to polish things, and at the back of my mind I think I am aware that I've not been doing that enough with written material - just been 'getting by on it' rather than taking things apart, cleaning the tiny cogs and oiling the mechanism (and then putting it back together and wondering why I have two tiny springs left over ;-))

So yeah, taking good care of the machine I already have, as it were....

As Hal G says - 'the ring of truth.'

Now while written material is obviously not what we are dealing with all the time, I do think that it's a good way to start because it makes you internalise certain principles of phrasing if you apply these principles across the board. You kind of have to do thing a little mechanically at first, until they become intuitive. Being used to hearing composed material in more detail and as result having this start to come out in your playing will as I understand it have a knock on effect in one's playing.

Again this reminds me very much of what Hal G says - in the podcast Destiny posted in Groynaid's thread, he talks about this sort of thing :-) I think we all have moments of this when we suddenly have a revelation about our playing.

Anyway this was a conversation I had with a bass player on the way to a gig today, seemed to be saying similar things. He himself comes out of the Hal Galper school (his teacher IIRC Was a student of Hal's.)

Tristano school slow improv

The other thing is that with slow improvisation, you do have the time to an extent to polish material as you go. I should revisit it. Although after a year, I got to the point where I as able to slow improvise without it feeling slow any more. Make of that what you will! (Still, Dave Cliff, a strong advocate of Tristano style slow improv practice as a student of Peter Ind, roasted me on slow improv on Moment's Notice when I went to him around 18 months ago and I still kind of feel that need's work... ;-))

I understand that there are occasionally proper Tristano school people lurking around on the forum - I'm always interested to hear what they have to say.

BTW HG is also a huge fan of that book 'A Jazz Life' which for me is the go to source on Tristano/Marsh practice exercises, so it all fits. BTW

Longo Rhythmic Nature of Jazz exercises

Another direction I got into through Hal's videos is Mike Longo's rhythmic approach. I do feel that this helps a lot - a thorough Longo warm up using the exercises on DVD II and also increasingly DVD III does have an effect on glueing everything together, reminding me what it feels like to play with good time, chilling me out, relaxing and warming up my chops and generally helping me enter a more meditative state. (It doesn't tend to last if I am rushing to make the gig etc...) Of course it might be selection bias, but I feel like my playing gets a lot more funky, greasy and rooted when I do this.

It doesn't stop me from sometimes lapsing into egotistical playing however. I kind of feel that's the real challenge here.

Perceptions

Lastly, others have mentioned the perceptual aspect of listening to yourself. I have to say after a few days, my perceptions can change radically.

[dortmundjazzguitar]

BTW HG is also a huge fan of that book 'A Jazz Life' which for me is the go to source on Tristano/Marsh practice exercises, so it all fits. BTW

heh, i just checked my past emails, and it was me who hipped hal to the warne marsh book some years ago. i enjoyed the motto of the book and assumed (rightly) that it would resonate with hal.

""it has to be put inside you and you have to be ready to have it put there" (sidney bechet)

regarding longo, are there any students of his that you're aware of who actually bring his concepts to life?

[christianm77]

heh, i just checked my past emails, and it was me who hipped hal to the warne marsh book some years ago. i enjoyed the motto of the book and assumed (rightly) that it would resonate with hal.

""it has to be put inside you and you have to be ready to have it put there" (sidney bechet)

regarding longo, are there any students of his that you're aware of who actually bring his concepts to life?

Dunno

[christianm77]

Many years later, I'm struggling to keep some form with the hundreds of ideas in all kinds of Jazz situations. Problem is that with so many ideas/patterns/devices etc (many of them relatively recently acquired), there's no time (nor inclination) to do the 1000's of reps for every single idea, let alone possible combination of ideas. That's why I've always said that mastering Jazz improv is about 1000 times more difficult than mastering rock/blues. Of course, the great players had a large vocabulary at their disposal with total authority and confidence. CC, Django, Wes, Martino, Benson, Metheny etc could whip out and safely land or connect seemingly hundreds of ideas with the same 100% certainty with respect to phrasing that say Clapton could with his dozen or so simple ideas. Lotsa practice? Or lotsa talent? Gotta be both, right?

I don't know if I agree with your analysis.

I believe that it is better to have 5 ideas you can apply in every possible situation harmonically and that have room for variation and extension rather than 1000 idea for each situation. I see CC, Wes and Metheny as very much part of that tradition. That's how I approach it.

In fact I have no option because I find that I have about 5-6 ideas which I use on heavy rotation at any particular time (basically) in every harmonic situation I can, and when I learn a new one it pushes the old one out of my head. :-) I don't tend to beat myself up about this, this shit has been going on for 20 years, and I was encourage by transcribing certain other players and see that many of them use a fairly limited set of ideas in a very far-reaching way.

TBH I think many players are like this.

On some nights I can be much freer - play things I haven't practiced, but in the general run of things it good to have a few obvious licks you can wheel out and even make music with.

I haven't quite got things as flexibly applicable as I'd like. That's where the BH backdoor dominant = minor ii-V concept is of particular interest. But the dominant = minor thing is well engrained in my playing.

GB just seems to know every lick in the world, OTOH - that approach works for some players.

[princeplanet]

I don't know if I agree with your analysis.

I believe that it is better to have 5 ideas you can apply in every possible situation harmonically and that have room for variation and extension rather than 1000 idea for each situation. I see CC, Wes and Metheny as very much part of that tradition. That's how I approach it.
.....

Yes, it's rather ambitious, and the rewards are always uncertain! We know that Bird had around 300 or so ideas he liked to recycle, but it took a lot of analysis to finally nail them! And then there's Rollins or Dexter or Cannonball that seem to have an inexhaustible well of ideas. I suppose I admire most the players that speak with a fairly large vocab.

I agree that we all shed (as in lose) old ideas in preference for new ones, but if the old ones are good ones, the new need to be better, right? I know I'll end up discarding much of what I currently practice, and hopefully be left with the "cream" of the crop (woops, nearly typed "crap")...

[christianm77]

Yes, it's rather ambitious, and the rewards are always uncertain! We know that Bird had around 300 or so ideas he liked to recycle, but it took a lot of analysis to finally nail them! And then there's Rollins or Dexter or Cannonball that seem to have an inexhaustible well of ideas. I suppose I admire most the players that speak with a fairly large vocab.

I agree that we all shed (as in lose) old ideas in preference for new ones, but if the old ones are good ones, the new need to be better, right? I know I'll end up discarding much of what I currently practice, and hopefully be left with the "cream" of the crop (woops, nearly typed "crap")...

Well it's more subtle than than what I said, actually. My old ideas don't go anywhere, it's just the things I have the presence of mind to use at the drop of a C7#11 chord. Sometimes, I can give the whole thing a big stir and stuff comes bubbling to the surface.

Also, practice is non linear.

[pkirk]

interesting topic. I'd want to highlight the difference between "licks" and "ideas". It's possible to have a 1000 (or more realistically 100) licks and still be working off of what you categorize as 5 or 6 ideas.

[emanresu]

- letting the brain get in the way - 'hey I should insert this cool lick I've been practicing' ... FAIL!

When cant help it and have to be "all brains" then one way that helps me is to try and get a little distance from the playing, like being a puppet master for the hands, observing a bit above. And try to follow a plan.. it can go like this:
1.phrase -new thing 2.response to it 3.elaborate 4.respond&finish to the 1st.
It's just one model. When using such a plan, the solo may make more sense while still being brainy, pushy and controlling.

Btw. it's gonna be quite hard to put just any old random lick to the 2,3,4

[Thumpalumpacus]

Thumpalumpacus,

Why do you suggest without the amp?

Because wood don't lie. An amp imparts coloration, and distracts the ear to tone from touch, imho. Me, with an amp I can get into twiddling knobs rather than focusing on my touch, which is the crux of untidy playing issues.

If you can play it clean unamplified, you can play it, period. (Keep in mind my background in rock rather than jazz. Also keep in mind that I'm just coming off a five-year stint playing acoustic-only. I have my own biases).

Too much focus on mechanics, counting, scales, modes, etc.

Too much detail. The brain cannot think of all those things while playing musically. It is too much.

It's ok to practice something particular in PRACTICE but to concern yourself with all these things while playing musically is going to bring poor results.

Your focus should on playing melodically. As Henry said to create pleasant phrasing.

This is one reason why I think setting aside some practice time for simple improv is important. The tendency to play what we practice is hard to fight ... so if you practice improv, you're a little closer to the goal, no?

[christianm77]

Because wood don't lie. An amp imparts coloration, and distracts the ear to tone from touch, imho. Me, with an amp I can get into twiddling knobs rather than focusing on my touch, which is the crux of untidy playing issues.

If you can play it clean unamplified, you can play it, period. (Keep in mind my background in rock rather than jazz. Also keep in mind that I'm just coming off a five-year stint playing acoustic-only. I have my own biases).



This is one reason why I think setting aside some practice time for simple improv is important. The tendency to play what we practice is hard to fight ... so if you practice improv, you're a little closer to the goal, no?

I dunno, my playing is pretty clean acoustic (I mostly gig on acoustic guitar or low-volume archtop), but I can run into problems when I have more amplification in a noisy band, usually due to muting - or rather not muting.

Nowadays, it feels very alien to me to 'tickle' the guitar in the way that the electric cats do, and awkward to have constrain the movement of my wrist by anchoring my hand near the bridge (urrrghh), but it's the right way to do it when you are in a band with an electric bass player and a drummer on sticks.

So now, I kind of practice both ways. I usually have a run up of a few days to get used to an instrument before a gig. I think it works out OK.

Sheryl Bailey points out that if you practice acoustic only it can encourage you to hit the strings too hard. I think she has a point. Although sometimes (such as those 4 sets of completely unamplified guitar I had to do on Saturday) making a big sound is really important. But that stuff won't wash playing fusion with a tele through a tube screamer.

Amplified acoustic playing is a separate thing again from unamplified acoustic playing and electric playing. There are many guitarists who play amplified acoustic instruments now such as the Godins, who would be basically inaudible on a real acoustic instrument. My technique for playing on such an instrument is kind of different as well.

As always with me, probably trying to do to many things. Many guys would have used a battery amp on Saturday night, but I feel that having to rely on an amp is kind of lame.

I think with rock players as well, many grow up practicing with what we might politely describe as a bedroom shred rock tone. So, they get used to the guitar tone hiding mistakes.

In fact, if you play through a clean Fender amp, say, it can actually be less forgiving than an acoustic guitar. Or that's what I find in any case - ice pick attack on notes? Passages that sound clean acoustic not 'pinging out' in the same way through the amp? The compression of the preamp stage emphasising details that you simply can't hear unplugged? I suspect most Fender amp players probably know what I mean.

TBH a lot of jazz guitarists sound a bit unsubtle through an amp. I think the new generation of post-Kurt players are notable for the way they play the amp as much as the guitar, and I like it.

[Boston Joe]

Forgive me if this reiterates points made above. Didn't have time to read the whole thread.

I personally don't mind a little untidy playing, as I think it gives some personality to the sound. Scofield sounds rather untidy at times, but he always sounds great. That said, my type of untidiness is more in the articulation area than rhythmic. Wobbly rhythm can make you sound hack-ish.

My understanding is that the traditional way of dealing with this is to practice with a metronome and go really slow. Get your motions perfect at slower tempos, then speed up gradually.

[christianm77]

Forgive me if this reiterates points made above. Didn't have time to read the whole thread.

I personally don't mind a little untidy playing, as I think it gives some personality to the sound. Scofield sounds rather untidy at times, but he always sounds great. That said, my type of untidiness is more in the articulation area than rhythmic. Wobbly rhythm can make you sound hack-ish.

My understanding is that the traditional way of dealing with this is to practice with a metronome and go really slow. Get your motions perfect at slower tempos, then speed up gradually.

Indeed. I don't give a f*** about the articulation and technique if the rhythm isn't good. That's what I mean about untidiness.

[Boston Joe]

Indeed. I don't give a f*** about the articulation and technique if the rhythm isn't good. That's what I mean about untidiness.

Yeah... so, metronome time, then.

[christianm77]

Yeah... so, metronome time, then.

Not necessarily.

[Jonah]

My teacher with whom I had just a few master classes - fantastic player... told me one thing that seems to be so simple:

'Every note you play has its strictly determined place in time - no earlier no later... and this place should be as determined as the pitch choice you do...
It does not mean that you play by the predetermined scheme...
no.. it means that you know that it should be right here where it is now'

Yes it's about timing and rythm... and strange enough but that simple idea helped me to improve.

I knew it but actually I took it too much for granted... Musical time became more substancial, more tangible to me...
I began gradually more and more to feel it like I mold time and rythm (yes I have this... sculpturale metaphor because it really feel like this to me)... instead of just flowing in it.

And he also asked to stop 'swinging' while practicing... just to keep it under control...
I mean he asked to play straight 8ths...
later I got that these 'straight' 8th swang much harder...

[Thumpalumpacus]

So now, I kind of practice both ways.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to suggest never practicing with an amp, but rather, practicing unamplified the untidy passage until you get it wired.

So now, I kind of practice both ways. In fact, if you play through a clean Fender amp, say, it can actually be less forgiving than an acoustic guitar. Or that's what I find in any case - ice pick attack on notes? Passages that sound clean acoustic not 'pinging out' in the same way through the amp? The compression of the preamp stage emphasising details that you simply can't hear unplugged? I suspect most Fender amp players probably know what I mean.

Having had a Fender as my #1 for over a decade, I know what you mean. But that compression you're hearing emphasize details you can't hear unplugged? That's exactly my point. You can come to rely on those artifacts without realizing it.

I was answering your first listed issue, namely, "poor technical exectuion".

[christianm77]

Yeah, I wasn't trying to suggest never practicing with an amp, but rather, practicing unamplified the untidy passage until you get it wired.



Having had a Fender as my #1 for over a decade, I know what you mean. But that compression you're hearing emphasize details you can't hear unplugged? That's exactly my point. You can come to rely on those artifacts without realizing it.

I was answering your first listed issue, namely, "poor technical exectuion".

Well, concrete example if I play a passage and let the open strings ring sympathetically it's not going to be a problem if I am playing acoustic, or even an amplified acoustic - it's even part of the sound, like the sustain pedal on a piano. With a magnetic pickup through a Fender amp it's going to be an issue. To my ears anyway.

With me (I think) poor technical execution is usually something to do with playing something that's not properly internalised (so basically what you said). At least that's how it seems. Usually it ends up rushing, and often the hands are unsynchronised. That's not generally due to poor chops per se (IMO) but more to do with not properly imagining the phrase before I play it.

That said, a bit of a warm up helps a lot. I really notice it when I don't warm up. And no, playing a gig or teaching doesn't count really :-) Not always possible though.

[christianm77]

My teacher with whom I had just a few master classes - fantastic player... told me one thing that seems to be so simple:

'Every note you play has its strictly determined place in time - no earlier no later... and this place should be as determined as the pitch choice you do...
It does not mean that you play by the predetermined scheme...
no.. it means that you know that it should be right here where it is now'

Yes it's about timing and rythm... and strange enough but that simple idea helped me to improve.

I knew it but actually I took it too much for granted... Musical time became more substancial, more tangible to me...
I began gradually more and more to feel it like I mold time and rythm (yes I have this... sculpturale metaphor because it really feel like this to me)... instead of just flowing in it.

And he also asked to stop 'swinging' while practicing... just to keep it under control...
I mean he asked to play straight 8ths...
later I got that these 'straight' 8th swang much harder...

Sounds like familiar advice, which is heartening.

[Jonah]

Sounds like familiar advice, which is heartening.

Christian,

I do nto feel that I have the right to give you advice since you seem to be much more accomplished player than I am... nevertheless I will describe some practical things I did to improve it...

By the way the same teacher told me: when you do not feel comfortable with rythmic ideas - it may be too big a task to imply both esquisite pitch choices and rythmic choices, while practicing use simple rythm with more complex note sequecnces .. and on the contrary .. vary simple notes set in complex rythms

What I did

- I played excercises with groupling 8ths in 5 of 3 notes group, both excercises lead to shifting accent from 1st 8th to the 2nd etc. The idea is not only play it - actually I always played it very naturally without thinking about... the idea of excercises to control these accents conciously...
I recorded comping were 4/4 beats are very straight and audible... then I just focused on constructing phrases coming to/going off these 'random' accents... the simples way is to get into it is to pley the whjole group of 5 (or 3) 8ths and then to 'unplay' one note at the beginning or at the end, then two notes etc.

- I played excercises that Kresiberg showed in his demo (I did not subscribe to classes - demo was more than enough for me)... they are desighned to solo in 3/4 over 4/4.
You can check them


- I began to play on'beat more... something I like about Monk playing ... that from time to time he heavily sits just on teh 1st beat - as if he comes to it finally... somthing like that I can hear in Bill Frisell playing... Sco does it a lot in solo playing especially... Peter BErnstein too...
This helps to bring int very solid feel of stability... and to me it gives teh feel of check point of timing...
I kind of listen to myself carefully and then say: now. And the listner also hears this 'now'... whatever I do before or after become connected and supported with this moment.

I even do it like this: I play the phrase mentally.. not aloud and the last note that should come (in this case) to the beat... I play it very confidently... bang... namely because I know where it came from.

[christianm77]

Christian,

I do nto feel that I have the right to give you advice since you seem to be much more accomplished player than I am... nevertheless I will describe some practical things I did to improve it...

By the way the same teacher told me: when you do not feel comfortable with rythmic ideas - it may be too big a task to imply both esquisite pitch choices and rythmic choices, while practicing use simple rythm with more complex note sequecnces .. and on the contrary .. vary simple notes set in complex rythms

What I did

- I played excercises with groupling 8ths in 5 of 3 notes group, both excercises lead to shifting accent from 1st 8th to the 2nd etc. The idea is not only play it - actually I always played it very naturally without thinking about... the idea of excercises to control these accents conciously...
I recorded comping were 4/4 beats are very straight and audible... then I just focused on constructing phrases coming to/going off these 'random' accents... the simples way is to get into it is to pley the whjole group of 5 (or 3) 8ths and then to 'unplay' one note at the beginning or at the end, then two notes etc.

- I played excercises that Kresiberg showed in his demo (I did not subscribe to classes - demo was more than enough for me)... they are desighned to solo in 3/4 over 4/4.
You can check them


- I began to play on'beat more... something I like about Monk playing ... that from time to time he heavily sits just on teh 1st beat - as if he comes to it finally... somthing like that I can hear in Bill Frisell playing... Sco does it a lot in solo playing especially... Peter BErnstein too...
This helps to bring int very solid feel of stability... and to me it gives teh feel of check point of timing...
I kind of listen to myself carefully and then say: now. And the listner also hears this 'now'... whatever I do before or after become connected and supported with this moment.

I even do it like this: I play the phrase mentally.. not aloud and the last note that should come (in this case) to the beat... I play it very confidently... bang... namely because I know where it came from.

Sounds like good stuff. The Kreisberg stuff on the musicmasterclass video - if that's what you mean - is one way into an important subject, and I've practiced these exercises a fair amount. Still working on the quarter triplet groupings of four.

He suggested the same exercise when I asked him about what to practice for rhythm/timing so I think this is a central plank of his teaching.

Basically what I've noticed is that if I can scat quarter triplets against a tempo, I can play it. If I can't, it tends to be a bit 'unmoored.'

Longo is big on this too, BTW. The quarter triplet is one of the most important rhythms in jazz. Mike L also stresses the importance of the quarter triplet.

Actually, I habitually sit quite heavily on the first beat, especially on up tunes. It's something I'm trying to develop more control of.

[princeplanet]

interesting topic. I'd want to highlight the difference between "licks" and "ideas". It's possible to have a 1000 (or more realistically 100) licks and still be working off of what you categorize as 5 or 6 ideas.

This is true. For example, one idea maybe to play through arps where you encircle each chord tone. Yet there are dozens of ways which you can approach and encircle each tone as well as the endless different combinations of such enclosures. Then you go up in each position on the neck as you would go down. Then there's all the other keys. Still just one idea, but a couple of month's work. Until you find that by just altering one note in that m7b5 arp, you can get a b9 against V7b9 chords, so you do it all again, different enclosure up and down, different positions, different keys...

Of course, sooner or later, you're gonna wanna hear that b13 as well, so off we go, just change that "one little note".... Sounds easy, but it's always a bitch, the fingering often must change dramatically to fit the enclosure to a particular position. As your ear gets better, you alter the way you play these ideas, which often means unlearning and re-learning improved versions of said idea. And there it is, a year's grinding work, just around one "idea" because there are at least 30 different fingering patterns to memorise before you even change keys...

So yeah, as well as the dozens of lines, licks patterns etc, I'm trying to get 15 such "devices" each for Tonic Major, Tonic minor, Dominant and altered Dominant under the fingers- each one with 5 fingerings for descending and 5 fingerings for descending (often very different). Essentially each device has 10 different fingerings, so that's 15 x 4 x 10 ways to play each device. That's 600 positional fingerings (2 .5 octaves) for C maj / Amin!!! Of course you need to practice them going from T to D all at different lengths (half a bar through to 4 bars long), starting from different strings, in alternating directions etc etc, so it starts to seem like overkill.

Until I remind myself to listen to Clifford Brown's warmup routine....

[christianm77]

This is true. For example, one idea maybe to play through arps where you encircle each chord tone. Yet there are dozens of ways which you can approach and encircle each tone as well as the endless different combinations of such enclosures. Then you go up in each position on the neck as you would go down. Then there's all the other keys. Still just one idea, but a couple of month's work. Until you find that by just altering one note in that m7b5 arp, you can get a b9 against V7b9 chords, so you do it all again, different enclosure up and down, different positions, different keys...

Of course, sooner or later, you're gonna wanna hear that b13 as well, so off we go, just change that "one little note".... Sounds easy, but it's always a bitch, the fingering often must change dramatically to fit the enclosure to a particular position. As your ear gets better, you alter the way you play these ideas, which often means unlearning and re-learning improved versions of said idea. And there it is, a year's grinding work, just around one "idea" because there are at least 30 different fingering patterns to memorise before you even change keys...

So yeah, as well as the dozens of lines, licks patterns etc, I'm trying to get 15 such "devices" each for Tonic Major, Tonic minor, Dominant and altered Dominant under the fingers- each one with 5 fingerings for descending and 5 fingerings for descending (often very different). Essentially each device has 10 different fingerings, so that's 15 x 4 x 10 ways to play each device. That's 600 positional fingerings (2 .5 octaves) for C maj / Amin!!! Of course you need to practice them going from T to D all at different lengths (half a bar through to 4 bars long), starting from different strings, in alternating directions etc etc, so it starts to seem like overkill.

Until I remind myself to listen to Clifford Brown's warmup routine....

Crikey, I'm sure this is not in fact the case, but it doesn't sound like you are having a huge amount of fun with this learning jazz guitar lark ;-)

It sounds like you are basing your judgements on the idea that in order to play something, you have to have practiced eight million times. This is not in fact the case - although, you may find that you are at a higher risk of doing something a little untidy if you do? I'm not sure.

In my case, I can loosen things up a lot by practicing improvisation - slow improv is a good way to do this, but not the only way. Take the encirclement idea. I have one lick based on this idea that I use rather a lot - to the point that people who know this lick go - ah 'prof!' (my nickname) when they here someone else do it - it became a joke, so I stopped using it so much.

In fact, things get lodged in my playing and become 'licks', but the primary aim for me in my practice sessions is to 'loosen up.' So I might spend five minutes working that encirclement concept on chord tones through a tune by jumping from chord tone to chord tone at random - a bit like I wouldn't play continuous arpeggios through a tune the same way each time. Done at a reasonable tempo (say 120-140 bpm) it's totally possible to do this in real time and not mess up.

But - this is practice room stuff right? If you trying doing this on the stand, you will mess up :-) But it does loosen you up for gigs - when I practice this kind of thing my playing becomes more open.

However when I am playing a lot of gigs, my playing tends to become more set and licky unless I deliberately practice the opposite. I think other players I work with have talked about the same thing. It's probably not the way it works for everyone.

The other thing that happens is that you become more flexible if you practice more variations. So it's non-linear. It's not like put in x work, and y things will result. It's more that you become better at the process of adapting and reapplying what you already know. I could give loads of examples of how this work, if it interests anyone.

However, that's all a bit different from 'polishing' ones playing. TBH I kind of think that the polishing comes from not allowing yourself to overthink, or second guess what you are doing on the stand, whicle doing exactly that in the practice room. You kind of have to have two separate personalities - a musical Mr Hyde for the bandstand and a Dr Jekyll for the practice room (maybe not ;-))

[princeplanet]

Crikey, I'm sure this is not in fact the case, but it doesn't sound like you are having a huge amount of fun with this learning jazz guitar lark ;-)

It sounds like you are basing your judgements on the idea that in order to play something, you have to have practiced eight million times. This is not in fact the case - although, you may find that you are at a higher risk of doing something a little untidy if you do? I'm not sure.

Haha, I'm so far down the path, there's no stopping me now!... Actually, despite the grind, I'd have to say I find playing these days to be far less frustrating than it was when I didn't have the devices on tap. I was always (still am to a lesser degree) hearing fastish things that I just couldn't find in real time. Because I was hearing sax lines in my head from all the Jazz listening I've done.

But now, I'm hearing the devices I've spent countless hours acquiring, in varying lengths. It's language that I know and can express. Before it was like me listening to people speak in French, and liking it ( a lot), even being able to mimic it a little, but not really have the conceptual understanding to be able to freely express myself in French, or something....
I have issues with the whole "Jazz = Language" analogy, but I really do pre hear what I know with the jazz vocab I've been building upon, and it's so empowering, I'm hooked!

It sounds like I'm happy to have a rather formulaic approach to it all, and it is when I'm restricting myself to limited concepts as in etudes etc, but I've always made sure to reserve enough time for "freewheeling" - not thinking about or trying to do anything except make up melodies against backing chord progressions or tunes. And it is in this mode where all the internalising bears fruit, because the lines just come to you in amongst the randomness.

TBH, for me, I just can't imagine there's any other way to get where I want to be. I also think that most of the greats probably secretly woodshedded way more than they let on in order to acquire the ultimate control they had. They didn't just stop at "tidy", they pushed themselves all the way into being phenomenal.