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  1. #1

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    My guitar teacher doesn't like bebop scales, I'm working my way through a book on Jazz Blues at the moment and they are talking about using them a lot. I've never really used them consciously before and have made some pretty killer bop lines, what are peoples thoughts?

    Thanks

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  3. #2

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    I orient more towards chords than scales, but the bebop scales are great for... wait for it... playing bebop.

    Seriously, though: The whole point of the bebop scales are to get a passing tone in there, so that when you play though a scale, the chord tones will end up on the beat. Getting chord tones on the beat (or at least where you want them, rhythmically speaking) is an essential skill, so it's worthwhile to work on them.

    What's your teacher's specific problem with them?

  4. #3

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    Mm they seem to make sense, I'm not entirely sure but I believe he doesn't think they are something you want to be thinking about.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drapte
    Mm they seem to make sense, I'm not entirely sure but I believe he doesn't think they are something you want to be thinking about.
    They may or may not be appropriate for what you're ultimately doing, but I suspect your teacher's objections stem from him not knowing very much about them.

    One thing you can do with bebop scales that's very cool is harmonize them. Check out any of the threads on the "Barry Harris Method". When you harmonize a bebop scale, you get a series of chords that are all either an inversion of the first chord, or a diminished seventh chord. This creates some very interesting ways of getting around chord changes.

    Anyway, if you're working on getting fluid with bebop, then you should work on those scales. If you're working on something outside of the jazz realm, then it might not be the best use of your time.

  6. #5

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    Okay cool thanks for the response, I'll have a look into them.

  7. #6

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    What is bebop scale and how many out there?

  8. #7

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    I personally have pretty mixed feelings regarding bebop scales. Ultimately, I don't think the language of bebop comes from memorizing a bebop scale that has a particular passing tone added. At least, I never had any luck with developing bebop vocab in an improvisational sense by using them... and I tried.. hard... a lot... for a long time. They may have helped in getting used to running a scale pattern starting from a particular note on a particular beat and only moving in a scalar way. But for me, that just never transcended into improvisational freedom.

    What I found that did work was to define what I felt was really happening within the language of bebop and WHY the scales are the way they are. Ultimately, to me, what bebop boils down to is simply having the ability to land on the "better" notes on the stronger rhythmic beats. In order to be able to do that in an improvisational way, the 2 most important skills to develop are to be able to feel and even anticipate those rhythmic beats so you can not only hit the "better" notes on those beats, but even set them up in advance to create tension and movement that draws into them... and the ability to know/feel/see/hear/whatever what those notes are.

    While practicing bebop scales may help some people develop those 2 skills, they simply never got me where I wanted to be improvisationally.. to give me the freedom I was seeking. But I did find that boiling down "the problem" into those two skills gave me the chance to reverse engineer other practices and ideas that I did find helpful in developing those abilities and giving me a stronger foundation in feeling and anticipating those beats so that I could toy with them however I wanted rather than however a scale dictated.

    Though I have no doubt that heavy scale practice could potentially lead plenty of others to a similar place if they're built that way. I'd say the answer to your question, "Are bebop scales bull$**t?" is... It depends on whether or not you believe they're bull$**t... and either way... what are you going to do about it?

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanklemons
    I personally have pretty mixed feelings regarding bebop scales. Ultimately, I don't think the language of bebop comes from memorizing a bebop scale that has a particular passing tone added. At least, I never had any luck with developing bebop vocab in an improvisational sense by using them... and I tried.. hard... a lot... for a long time. They may have helped in getting used to running a scale pattern starting from a particular note on a particular beat and only moving in a scalar way. But for me, that just never transcended into improvisational freedom.

    What I found that did work was to define what I felt was really happening within the language of bebop and WHY the scales are the way they are. Ultimately, to me, what bebop boils down to is simply having the ability to land on the "better" notes on the stronger rhythmic beats. In order to be able to do that in an improvisational way, the 2 most important skills to develop are to be able to feel and even anticipate those rhythmic beats so you can not only hit the "better" notes on those beats, but even set them up in advance to create tension and movement that draws into them... and the ability to know/feel/see/hear/whatever what those notes are.

    While practicing bebop scales may help some people develop those 2 skills, they simply never got me where I wanted to be improvisationally.. to give me the freedom I was seeking. But I did find that boiling down "the problem" into those two skills gave me the chance to reverse engineer other practices and ideas that I did find helpful in developing those abilities and giving me a stronger foundation in feeling and anticipating those beats so that I could toy with them however I wanted rather than however a scale dictated.

    Though I have no doubt that heavy scale practice could potentially lead plenty of others to a similar place if they're built that way. I'd say the answer to your question, "Are bebop scales bull$**t?" is... It depends on whether or not you believe they're bull$**t... and either way... what are you going to do about it?
    Thanks for the response, I like your answer. I believe this is the point my guitar teacher was likely trying to get across, however it's easy to have second guesses when your reading a book that's practically telling you, this is the most important part of playing jazz, none of the lines in the book sound very good incidentally haha. Always appreciate your input,

    Thanks,

    Andrew

  10. #9

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    One thing I dig about bebop scales is 4 chromatic notes in a row.
    It works well with my fingers, and works well when I want to modulate from one key center to another.
    But that's about as sophisticated an understanding as I've been able to put together so far.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drapte
    Thanks for the response, I like your answer. I believe this is the point my guitar teacher was likely trying to get across, however it's easy to have second guesses when your reading a book that's practically telling you, this is the most important part of playing jazz, none of the lines in the book sound very good incidentally haha. Always appreciate your input,

    Thanks,

    Andrew
    Yeah, I mean... I think about it like this...

    Does anyone know when bebop scales were invented? I genuinely have no idea, so if someone does, I'm curious. Is there a book that is historically accepted as their first appearance in the theory canon? When was it published? Was it before or after bebop came about?

    I honestly don't know... but my gut tells me that Monk, Bird, and Diz were not sitting around shedding bebop scales out of a book. That does NOT mean that that approach can't yield helpful results for some musicians. But it seems to me more likely that they played what they played, and then later someone came along and noticed the patterns of these passing tones and said, let's call these scales.

    But they could have just as likely said, hey notice how they keep putting the "better" notes on these important beats? And then because of that, they're able to fill in all sorts of weird, chromatic nonsense in between?? Had they said that, the conversation wouldn't have been about the scales, but about learning to feel the harmonic rhythm. And for me, practicing that has been much more fruitful.

    On a side note... if you're working out of a book and you genuinely don't feel that any of the lines in the book sound good to you... I might recommend reconsidering whether or not you should be spending time there. Maybe you just need to "open your ears up" to those types of lines. But maybe it's just leading you in a direction your ears and your intuition don't want to head in. Is there a CD that comes with it? Can you hear the lines being played by someone else in a musical situation? You might want to just sit and listen to that CD. If you don't find your toes tapping, and your neck moving, and your soul and heart wanting to just get up and move... that might tell you something...

    Maybe work on some lines that you DO love for now, and come back to it in a year or two and see if its grown on you. Just a thought.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanklemons
    Yeah, I mean... I think about it like this...

    Does anyone know when bebop scales were invented? I genuinely have no idea, so if someone does, I'm curious. Is there a book that is historically accepted as their first appearance in the theory canon? When was it published? Was it before or after bebop came about?

    I honestly don't know... but my gut tells me that Monk, Bird, and Diz were not sitting around shedding bebop scales out of a book. That does NOT mean that that approach can't yield helpful results for some musicians. But it seems to me more likely that they played what they played, and then later someone came along and noticed the patterns of these passing tones and said, let's call these scales.

    But they could have just as likely said, hey notice how they keep putting the "better" notes on these important beats? And then because of that, they're able to fill in all sorts of weird, chromatic nonsense in between?? Had they said that, the conversation wouldn't have been about the scales, but about learning to feel the harmonic rhythm. And for me, practicing that has been much more fruitful.

    On a side note... if you're working out of a book and you genuinely don't feel that any of the lines in the book sound good to you... I might recommend reconsidering whether or not you should be spending time there. Maybe you just need to "open your ears up" to those types of lines. But maybe it's just leading you in a direction your ears and your intuition don't want to head in. Is there a CD that comes with it? Can you hear the lines being played by someone else in a musical situation? You might want to just sit and listen to that CD. If you don't find your toes tapping, and your neck moving, and your soul and heart wanting to just get up and move... that might tell you something...

    Maybe work on some lines that you DO love for now, and come back to it in a year or two and see if its grown on you. Just a thought.
    My understanding is that Dave Baker codified and named the Bebop Scale. Could be wrong though I guess. I really never got anything out of bebop scales ... And I played them A LOT. I starting sounding a little more bebop-y when I started grabbing lines and transposing them and taking little idiomatic things and putting them all over different places and working my own stuff into them. Bebop scale never did much for me.

  13. #12

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    I think David Baker may have invented the term for usage in his How To Play Bebop series. I spent a year ages ago practicing all of them, all positions all keys. I hardly ever play scale runs of more than 4 notes, so you'd think they were a waste of time, but they weren't. They were good training wheels for both physical technique and training the ear to expect chord tones on every beat.

    We all start off with scale practice, it's how we acquire technique, so you may as well put those chromatic passing tones in there from the get go. Later on you expand your ideas about chromaticism to land on your target tones, by then you won't think about "Bebop" scales anymore, they'll automatically become a small part of what you play without realising...

  14. #13

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    Dunno.

    Barry Harris's approach to single note improvisation has a whole load of special cases of how to apply chromaticism to scales, one of which is the bebop scale of David Baker. I've been doing this a lot really

    It's a scale based approach as opposed to a chord based approach, although it kind of includes the chordal approach within it.

    I used to be an arpeggio guy but I noticed Charlie Parker does play a lot of scales.

    Anyway my playing ATM is quite heavy on the 'bop scales.' I think it gives another melodic contour.

  15. #14

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    When I get into new tune...

    I usually run all the chord scales and arpeggio in rythm adn at tempo... I mean not only roots ... different scales and different arpeggios ... with subs or superimpositions...

    But mostly all scales are from diatonic major and mm groups...

    I do it quite freely.. not setting many limitations (I believe not without mistakes)...

    I just do it to feel more comfortable with 'musical ambience' of teh tune... to feel it on the neck under the fingers..

    But when i go to really playing I do not play either scales or arpeggios... I play tunes, phrases... at least i try...



    I think with scales it is important to understand/hear harmonic relations they represent....

    if you do it makes scales very effective...

    But if you use them only as set of motives... then it makes no sence to me (you can just use licks - it will be simpler)

    I just want to feel absolutely free on guitar as improvizor... I do not want to choose this door or that door... I want to open any door any moment... and I like to investigate these possibilities...
    Last edited by Jonah; 07-05-2016 at 07:10 AM.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanklemons
    Yeah, I mean... I think about it like this...

    Does anyone know when bebop scales were invented? I genuinely have no idea, so if someone does, I'm curious. Is there a book that is historically accepted as their first appearance in the theory canon? When was it published? Was it before or after bebop came about?

    I honestly don't know... but my gut tells me that Monk, Bird, and Diz were not sitting around shedding bebop scales out of a book. That does NOT mean that that approach can't yield helpful results for some musicians. But it seems to me more likely that they played what they played, and then later someone came along and noticed the patterns of these passing tones and said, let's call these scales.

    But they could have just as likely said, hey notice how they keep putting the "better" notes on these important beats? And then because of that, they're able to fill in all sorts of weird, chromatic nonsense in between?? Had they said that, the conversation wouldn't have been about the scales, but about learning to feel the harmonic rhythm. And for me, practicing that has been much more fruitful.

    On a side note... if you're working out of a book and you genuinely don't feel that any of the lines in the book sound good to you... I might recommend reconsidering whether or not you should be spending time there. Maybe you just need to "open your ears up" to those types of lines. But maybe it's just leading you in a direction your ears and your intuition don't want to head in. Is there a CD that comes with it? Can you hear the lines being played by someone else in a musical situation? You might want to just sit and listen to that CD. If you don't find your toes tapping, and your neck moving, and your soul and heart wanting to just get up and move... that might tell you something...

    Maybe work on some lines that you DO love for now, and come back to it in a year or two and see if its grown on you. Just a thought.
    This is pretty much exactly how I feel about bebop scales.

    I suspect they were invented for teaching and for marketing of teaching materials.

    On a side note.. I also agree with Jordans side note.

    Jens

  17. #16

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    BTW I think the earliest instances of what we might term bebop scales are to be found in 19th century music.

    A friend of mine jokes that the bebop dominant scale should really be called the JP Sousa scale.

    It's an obvious solution to a common problem - how to make a 7 note scale work in 4/4.

  18. #17

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    It's an obvious solution to a common problem - how to make a 7 note scale work in 4/4.
    Sorry... I do not get the realtion beween tha scale and meter

  19. #18

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    Trust your teacher...for having his own taste. A scale is a collection of notes. A sound is an ordering of those notes. Music is the imagination in control of sound.
    It can and may take a long time for you, as a student with infinite options, to understand your teacher's distaste. And it can take a very long time to be able to use the scales to make music your teacher never imagined.
    The bebop scale is one way to articulate the chromaticism of that blues rooted improvisational music based in 4/4 metric, but it is one way to present a convenient collection of notes. If you let it limit you to one cliche (bebop) sound, though, that's a fault of your imagination and not the scale.
    Trust your teacher, and explore the scale. All of them. And learn to trust your ability to imagine more than you trust anyone's prejudices. You might find that any scale deserves respect but they're just one way to order chromatic options.
    Keep it real. Make music.

    David

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It's an obvious solution to a common problem - how to make a 7 note scale work in 4/4.
    As we all know music before 1800 was having problems or in 7/8

    I would describe it more as an unmusical solution to an uninspired melody?

    Jens

  21. #20

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    Here's musical solution with descending 7 note major scale


  22. #21

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    Barry Harris answers all these questions in his educational material. He uses the "bebop scale" harmonically, and he calls it the 6th-diminished scale. He uses it for soloing, but has guidelines laid out for its use along with when and where to add additional passing tones. I'd check that out

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Sorry... I do not get the realtion beween tha scale and meter
    Imagine that you're playing a scale in eighth notes. Here's how they'd line up on the beat:



    Beat: 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &

    Major
    Scale tone: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ?

    Bebop
    scale tone: 1 2 3 4 5 #5 6 7

    This way, you've got a scale tone on every half beat, and the 7th on the "&" of 4, giving you a nice leading tone to the 1.

    I studied the bebop scales a little, not heavily, but mostly what I got out of it is that passing tones can make your rhythmic stuff work out better. I don't use the Barry Harris method, so it really doesn't matter where I put the passing tone. But using bebop scales (and in particular, Vol.1 of "How to Play Bebop"), I learned a lot about how to construct lines where the note I'm targeting ends up some place effective in the rhythmic flow.

    Plus, a little chromaticism in the middle of a line sounds good.

    EDIT: I had a feeling those things weren't going to line up properly. Pretend they did.

  24. #23

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    Barry Harris answers all these questions in his educational material. He uses the "bebop scale" harmonically, and he calls it the 6th-diminished scale. He uses it for soloing, but has guidelines laid out for its use along with when and where to add additional passing tones. I'd check that out

    what I find really attractive in Barry's system that it really covers all diatonic relations and makes diatonic theory look more jazz authentic rather than occasionally borrowed from classical..

    He describes the same realations in general that can be described with common means of classical terminolgy but in much more elaborated and natural way for jazz style


    For example ... he describes MM concept through using 6th minor diminshed (which is the same).. and I am ok with MM..

    But I have to admit that theory-wise 6th min dim is much more logical - again at least for functional relations
    Last edited by Jonah; 07-05-2016 at 09:45 AM.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah

    For example ... he describes MM concept through using 6th minor diminshed (which is the same)
    not to nitpick, but the minor 6th dim scale also contains a minor 6th. just didn't want anyone to get confused by this

    edit: or maybe you meant the classical MM scale-- that makes sense
    Last edited by joe2758; 07-05-2016 at 09:48 AM.

  26. #25

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    Imagine that you're playing a scale in eighth notes. Here's how they'd line up on the beat:



    Beat: 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &

    Major
    Scale tone: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ?

    Bebop
    scale tone: 1 2 3 4 5 #5 6 7

    ))))))))))))))

    Does anybody do something like this?))

    I never associated scale notes with the beat... to me scale represents harmonic and sonoric potentials...

    but the ways you can use it in texture (that is with meter)... and depend oin imagination... you can play only few notes from teh scale or play it in different rythms and so on an so on

    I would not ever think about playing all the notes of the scale with note per beat)))

    Who ever did it?

    Except maybe these Coltrain stuff of 'sound sheets' - but what's the problem to play 7 notes per 4 beats?