The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    I think Tal_175 and Jordan have "harmonized" posts here.

    A scale, any scale, is not music. In order to learn to play music, one must learn to play melodies, chords etc. A certain amount of drilling is necessary to learn the notes in the key, the harmonic structure, arpeggios, etc. You have to know that information to be able to improvise music. But as the melody of that song suggests, the way to learn to play bebop is to learn to play bebop. That sounds a little bit like a Zen koan; What I mean is learn what bebop players play. Learn the melodies, study the recorded material and learn what those notes are that they're playing and the context in which they're played.

    In terms of learning the music from the theoretical/scaler side, I think Barry Harris's approach seems to be more fruitful than trying to learn bebop scales. When I hear people who have learned the Harris method play, they sound like they're playing jazz. That is often not true when I hear people who have learned from music theory books, trying to figure out how to apply various scales, etc.; in fact, that is my primary critique of my own playing most of the time. I don't sound jazz enough.
    Yeah I think that’s it BH is unusual, perhaps unique in giving you a tool kit for constructing bebop language without learning licks.

    You can go back to the source - and of course should, but it gives you a mental model of how to understand how the language is put together, and turn into your own lines.

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  3. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by drbhrb
    I still can't wrap my head around the intention or goal of the BH method. I watched the videos above and it all seems to be a very round about way to get to making music. Bebop scales or BH, I don't see why you need a system to help you place your chord tones in a line. But I admit that I am most likely missing the entire point and would love to see the light so to speak.
    It really is worth watching a lot of the videos in the ‘things I learned from Barry harris’ YouTube channel to get a handle on the whole thing. Just watching 2 or so won’t make that much sense by themselves.

  4. #128

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    I think if studying them adds to your playing, it's worthwhile. I found better time spent learning Charlie Parker tunes.

  5. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    He invented using this scale with non-parallel voice movement. This is where we part company with the bebop scale. And why the #5 is harmonically important, key in fact. Just play through the maj6-dim examples in the books beyond the block chord stuff.... you can do it in contrary motion, oblique motion, staggered motion etc.
    I don't think he invented using non-parallel movement in that scale. Nor do I get your meaning of "we part company with the bebop scale". Arrangers have done non-parallel movement in that scale (with #5) for a long time without Barry's influence. Berklee taught it to me in the early 1970's and it goes way back before then. Check out the arranger Stan Kenton or maybe Neal Hefti. I am a BH devotee and think his method is about the best there is in jazz education (5432 phrases, play to the 7th, descending scale sounds best, "we don't play no ii scales", think major scale and dominant scales, half step rules, all the various ways to play block chords , etc.)

    I assume you are talking about non-parallel movement expanding (contrary motion) as Barry shows here:

    Last edited by rintincop; 10-02-2019 at 09:18 PM.

  6. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by drbhrb
    I still can't wrap my head around the intention or goal of the BH method. I watched the videos above and it all seems to be a very round about way to get to making music. Bebop scales or BH, I don't see why you need a system to help you place your chord tones in a line. But I admit that I am most likely missing the entire point and would love to see the light so to speak.
    I haven't really looked into the BH approach. Adding the extra note does make the chord tones strike on the downbeats -- but that's only if you're running the scale in order - which is not something I'm interested in doing. But, the added note affects the harmony in complex ways. I imagine that the expanded harmony is the important part.

  7. #131

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    What's the good argument for not using the beop scale half step rules (add one or add three notes, add none or add two notes) ? Why would you not want to? It sounds so nice. Scales without it tend to sound like exercises (un-balanced).
    Last edited by rintincop; 10-02-2019 at 05:51 PM.

  8. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    1 7 b7 1 6 b6 5 b5 4 5 3 b3 2 b2 1

    Where we have every note of the chromatic scale, but arranged so that the notes of the dominant scale end up on the beat, but happens to be a cool sounding line.
    I call this the Bebop dominant grandmother scale due to the inclusion of all 12 tones. And although I play a slightly more robust version (BDGS with descending maj3 inclusion) I find the scale to have enormous utilization for pivoting.
    Try playing it down to b6 and use the b6 as a maj 3 pivot to a major tetrachord.
    For ex. In the key of C:
    C B Bb A Ab E F# Ab B,
    Now you’ve landed on B on a down beat, but use it to play descending maj3:
    B G Bb F#, then continue with the scale
    A Ab G

  9. #133

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    I call it the chromatic scale with interruptions (chord tone leaps, then pick up where you left off) along the way. I saw Barry demonstrating it in the ascending direction.
    Last edited by rintincop; 10-02-2019 at 09:04 PM.

  10. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    What's the good argument for not using the beop scale half step rules (add one or add three notes, add none or add two notes) ? Why would you not want to? It sounds so nice. Scales without it tend to sound like exercises (un-balanced).
    Nothing wrong with it, but there are an unlimited number of other ways to get chord tones on strong beats. I don't really see what makes this one better.

  11. #135

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    Hey Tal... I meant to say... V/VI... Using Tonal targets... VI7 becomes a tonal target, functioning as a I. And then the 2nd two beats of 2nd bar is V7alt of VI.... or C7alt. I generally Play....
    bar 1 Bb9/9 C7alt(or Gb13) / F9 C7alt /
    bar 2 (A13) Bb13 F7alt / Bb123 Bb7alt /
    bar3... then i really get busy...

    The difference with arrangements for BB as compared to solo guitar is all the notes need to be worked out with organization for all attacks.... every note is a complete chord, or some other type of harmonic organization... I have to leave... Going to a BB gig using my book, just Guitar trio as rhythm section....

    I'll be glad to get into later...

  12. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Nothing wrong with it, but there are an unlimited number of other ways to get chord tones on strong beats. I don't really see what makes this one better.
    An unlimited number of ways within the scale? Are you sure?

    I can think of only two cases in order to quickly realign or balance a continuous scale line (we're talking strictly scale):
    1. By pitch: Inject half steps (per Barry's rules: add one or add three; add none or add two)
    2. Rhythmic: Inject eighth rest(s) or extend a note's duration.

    The so called "bebop scale" is the simplest most basic form of balancing the major scale (or the dominant scale). So it is not B.S.
    Last edited by rintincop; 10-02-2019 at 10:06 PM.

  13. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    An unlimited number of ways within the scale? Are you sure?

    I can think of only two cases in order to quickly realign or balance a continuous scale line (we're talking strictly scale):
    1. By pitch: Inject half steps (per Barry's rules: add one or add three; add none or add two)
    2. Rhythmic: Inject eighth rest(s) or extend a note's duration.

    The so called "bebop scale" is the simplest most basic form of balancing the major scale (or the dominant scale). So it is not B.S.
    I didn't intend to talk "strictly scale" or about Barry's rules. Rather, just about the notion of getting chord tones on strong beats.

    If you want chord tones on strong beats you can still play anything else, including chord tones, on weak beats. If you don't want to add a note, you can repeat a note.

    But this is still a matter of what you're trying to do. I'm not very interested in playing an entire scale, with or without an extra note. I recognize that other players, including great players, think and act differently.

  14. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    I don't think he invented using non-parallel movement in that scale. Nor do I get your meaning of "we part company with the bebop scale". Arrangers have done non-parallel movement in that scale (with #5) for a long time without Barry's influence. Berklee taught it to me in the early 1970's and it goes way back before then. Check out the arranger Stan Kenton or maybe Neal Hefti. I am a BH devotee and think his method is about the best there is in jazz education (5432 phrases, play to the 7th, descending scale sounds best, "we don't play no ii scales", think major scale and dominant scales, half step rules, all the various ways to play block chords , etc.)

    I assume you are talking about non-parallel movement expanding (contrary motion) as Barry shows here:

    It’s a hard question to answer, exactly how long Barry has been teaching this scale. He has been teaching since his schooldays though - becoming a guru figure in the jazz scene of the 1950s.... so, can’t answer that.

    I don’t actually know who much Barry would claim ownership of any of these concepts. So my comment might have been oversimplistic.

    So yeah, maybe Kenton and Hefti - I haven’t studied their music in depth.

    But to call this scale a bebop scale I think is unhelpful. It’s may seem pedantic to you, but it’s the difference between a passing tone that acts as rhythmic filler and a sound which is featured in the harmony.

    In one the #5 could be replaced by any note, in the other it is an important harmonic sound that gets used in chord voicings.

    From your posts you seem to be trying generally to put your own interpretation into Barry’s ideas and mixing up different things. Nothing wrong with that of course, but I feel I then need to point out how I think Barry would talk about stuff just for people reading the forum who might get confused.

    And bebop scale is not term you will hear Barry himself use. Bh’s terms, while unfamiliar, are consistently used and well thought out.

  15. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by StevenA
    I call this the Bebop dominant grandmother scale due to the inclusion of all 12 tones. And although I play a slightly more robust version (BDGS with descending maj3 inclusion) I find the scale to have enormous utilization for pivoting.
    Try playing it down to b6 and use the b6 as a maj 3 pivot to a major tetrachord.
    For ex. In the key of C:
    C B Bb A Ab E F# Ab B,
    Now you’ve landed on B on a down beat, but use it to play descending maj3:
    B G Bb F#, then continue with the scale
    A Ab G
    Nice! When I get a chance to pick up a guitar I’ll work on this.

    Sorry I don’t understand what you mean by BDGS?

  16. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    I don't think he invented using non-parallel movement in that scale. Nor do I get your meaning of "we part company with the bebop scale". Arrangers have done non-parallel movement in that scale (with #5) for a long time without Barry's influence. Berklee taught it to me in the early 1970's and it goes way back before then. Check out the arranger Stan Kenton or maybe Neal Hefti. I am a BH devotee and think his method is about the best there is in jazz education (5432 phrases, play to the 7th, descending scale sounds best, "we don't play no ii scales", think major scale and dominant scales, half step rules, all the various ways to play block chords , etc.)

    I assume you are talking about non-parallel movement expanding (contrary motion) as Barry shows here:

    Oh yeah, theres also stuff like that basic exercise where we go up the scale using 7-6 chords. Sorry for bad description it’s the sort of thing it’s easier to demonstrate on guitar.

    When you use maj-6 dim you get to the IVm(maj7) chord and it’s just gorgeous, kind of a good example of how the b6/#5 gets used harmonically.

  17. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    In one the #5 could be replaced by any note, in the other it is an important harmonic sound that gets used in chord voicings.
    Not correct. You cannot replace the #5 with any other note and keep the chord tones on the beat. Have you really thought about that? It’s the whole point of the so called bebop scale.
    Example (proof)
    Descending C6 major scale from 8 to 1:
    C B A Ab G F E D C
    put that single extra half step anywhere else along the way and it goes off balance (chord tones go off the beat). David Baker’s “How To Play Bebop” is mostly concerned with that point.
    It goes hand in hand with the geography of the alternating block chords of the C6 diminished chord scale. They are related, they are essentially the same parallel concept. One is simply single notes and the the other builds block chords upon those same single notes! They both hinge on the system of chord tone, non-chord tone, chord tone, non-chord tone, chord tone, non-chord tone, etc... By saying they are quite different is a misunderstanding of the nature of the system.

  18. #142

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    The C major “bebop scale” ,which adds a chromatic passing tone between 5 and 6, is the C 6 diminished scale before its harmonized. That’s fundamental. It’s the skeleton of the block chord scale. It was being done already when Barry was still a young kid, before bebop was happening.

  19. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by drbhrb
    I still can't wrap my head around the intention or goal of the BH method. I watched the videos above and it all seems to be a very round about way to get to making music. Bebop scales or BH, I don't see why you need a system to help you place your chord tones in a line. But I admit that I am most likely missing the entire point and would love to see the light so to speak.
    As it could be seen from this thread I am not BH's student or a follower but I took some time to get into his teaching (A. Kinhgston's book, video masterclasses, and that 'things I learnt from..' channell that grahambop mentioned and of course whta the forumate (easpecially christian77) wrote about it)...

    I just wanted to say that there can be some misunderstanding because what BH does is absolutely non-conventional from what we see in jazz education in the open market ... I am not even saying uinversities - just the open educational market: which is mostly numerous methods from players in books or youtube which are designed in approximately the same style: more or less pragmatic, clear and scientific system. They remind books 'Italian for 100 days' of something like.... that forms much our expectations form it. Also consumer's mentality is much incorporated in out mids too. We want things to be sold to us and be well- advertised and we even become demanding about it (youtube shows it very well).
    One of the specific feature of these methods - they are mostly linear (whic is very sciteific (at least in old trad science methodolody) too)


    But BH does a different thing... this kind of approach is not that linear in my opinion... you are dropped in teh middle of something and surrounded by some things showing up from different sides and that may seem disconnected sometimes... but eventually you get more and more info and things get connected .. but you do not move anywhere in direct sence... this does not work for anyone - especially in our days when pragamatism became common philosophy of success on every level.

    I woudl say - if you do not get BH you either just drop it... of keep it up quietly in the tempo and rhythm you wish and let it be and see how it works for you eventually...

    In real calsses - I know personally a couple of guys who participated - BH reminds a bit my son's (and for a period mine) karate teacher: he does not try to be attractive, does not try to please anyone and can be really tough. It is the systen that tries you which actually reminds a bit old school bandstand method...
    We today expect too much, we paid money we want to be pleased for it first of all, more than to be educated or taught. But with Barry it will not work like that...

    I just wanted to say that - not specifically about you - but about me too...

    Of course there is a chance that you already have the things that are taught there behind and you do not need.
    We would not expect Sonny Stitt study BH's scale... he personificated that music himself.
    But this is for those who approaches it from outside and feels that cannot play in that style naturally and it is not by far not about putting notes in a line.
    I would say the very heart of BH's school is pitch/rythmometric realtionships (which actually makes the best of European music from Renaissance till now). It is all focused on where to you play that note. And all developed how to incorporate it so that you would do it naturally in real practice without second thought.

    To make you react to the context in the style

  20. #144

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    In jazz piano history, block chords that alternate between a 6th chord and a diminished chord supposedly originated with pianist arranger Phill Moore, born 1918. Then George Shearing, born 1919, popularized it. Barry Harris was born 1929 and was still a kid when these guys were already out there doing it. Just saying.

  21. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    Not correct. You cannot replace the #5 with any other note and keep the chord tones on the beat. Have you really thought about that? It’s the whole point of the so called bebop scale.
    Example (proof)
    Descending C6 major scale from 8 to 1:
    C B A Ab G F E D C
    put that single extra half step anywhere else along the way and it goes off balance (chord tones go off the beat). David Baker’s “How To Play Bebop” is mostly concerned with that point.
    It goes hand in hand with the geography of the alternating block chords of the C6 diminished chord scale. They are related, they are essentially the same parallel concept. One is simply single notes and the the other builds block chords upon those same single notes! They both hinge on the system of chord tone, non-chord tone, chord tone, non-chord tone, chord tone, non-chord tone, etc... By saying they are quite different is a misunderstanding of the nature of the system.
    I have two examples of how Barry does it above.

    ‘The rule is more important than the note’ Barry Harris

    Another solution from the Baker book is simply to put a quarter note on the first note. In BH terms that effectively reverses the rules in the same way as an offbeat or triplet. You see that variation a lot!
    Last edited by christianm77; 10-03-2019 at 03:33 AM.

  22. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    In jazz piano history, block chords that alternate between a 6th chord and a diminished chord supposedly originated with pianist arranger Phill Moore, born 1918. Then George Shearing, born 1919, popularized it. Barry Harris was born 1929 and was still a kid when these guys were already out there doing it. Just saying.
    I wasn’t talking about block chords, but that’s interesting bit of information about Phil Moore, thanks.

  23. #147

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    1 7 6 #4 5 4 3 2 1
    1 7 6 7 5 4 3 1

    Well you are using a leaps and an enclosure to get things on track in the first example and in the second example you are repeating the 7th and then leaping over the 6th. I thought we were considering the “bebop scale” (David Baker) to be linear stepwise motion, rather than phrases that leap and enclose. You are using embellishment phrases to make your case

  24. #148

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    We were talking block chords . It’s the origin of the so called 6th dim harmony scale . Step 1 . Of course Barry Harris does block chords, but he takes that old system and tweaks them in very clever and creative ways. He uses contrary motion, varies the note density, etc.

  25. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    Another solution from the Baker book is simply to put a quarter note on the first note. In BH terms that effectively reverses the rules in the same way as an offbeat or triplet.
    I sort of mentioned that in my post above in case 2:
    1. By pitch: Inject half steps (per Barry's rules: add one or add three; add none or add two)
    2. Rhythmic: Inject eighth rest(s) or extend a note's duration.”

    I forgot to to mention the triplet though, good catch.

  26. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    We were talking block chords . It’s the origin of the so called 6th dim harmony scale . Step 1 . Of course Barry Harris does block chords, but he takes that old system and tweaks them in very clever and creative ways. He uses contrary motion, varies the note density, etc.
    I think you were talking about them, and I was trying to broaden the discussion, but yes that’s true.