Are bebop scales useful?

**christianm77** · 07-05-2016, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

See this makes a lot of sense to me. But it's also freed from the strictures of the whole bebop scale thing.

The ideas Christian posted for working through it make some sense to me but ... perhaps could you (Christian) post an example of one or two of those "1 or 3 notes added" sort of ideas so I can see sort of what you're getting at. Because my biggest issue with bebop scales is that they always seemed to offer a single narrow solution to a problem that didn't really exist. That is a harsh way of saying that I always thought of them (because they're often represented) as a way to distribute a scale evenly over a four bar measure and get chord tones on strong beats. The obvious next questions being ... well how often do I want to play a scale from top to bottom in one measure? What happens when I want to play syncopations? What happens if I want the ninth to be prominent -- or the sixth -- or the sharp eleventh.

Again -- these are not accusations -- I'm genuinely curious because I suspect that it was probably a lack of imagination that made these less useful for me rather than a lack of utility in the scales. I just figure maybe outlining some of the shortcomings I saw (at the risk of incurring the wrath of the forum) will maybe give you guys something to target with your explanations of how you practice with them.

Convince me! I want to be convinced ....

TBH it's not my job to convince you. Either it grabs you or it doesn't.

EDIT: by which I mean to say - this stuff didn't interest me for a long time. I came around to it when it felt right. Maybe for you it won't and you will go a different way.

**pamosmusic** · 07-05-2016, 05:36 PM

Well ... You're right of course but it's not anyone's job to be on this forum (except mark?) and yet here we are.

truthfully I was joking about the convincing ... But honestly it sounds to me like adding more than the one chromatic note is not a bebop scale anymore - no? What do those exercises look like and how'd you come to them? Curiosity.

**joe2758** · 07-05-2016, 05:44 PM

barry harris doesn't use the term bebop scale; he has these "added note rules" and often times you end up playing what has been dubbed the bebop scale by someone else along the way. i'm willing to make a 5 min video to demonstrate some of the stuff. let me know if that would help and what specifically you'd like to see. i'm not as experienced as christian, but im willing to make one if it might help

**jordanklemons** · 07-05-2016, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by JensL

I've heard Barry Harris say that in workshops as well, but they were live not on YouTube

Jens

I'm getting a little confused here. Are we talking about the same thing? What are referring to when you say that you've heard him say "that". What did you hear him talk about. I've crossed paths with him a bit, but not much... So if youve been to master classes, chances are good you've spent more time with him than I have.

**christianm77** · 07-05-2016, 05:56 PM

A three added note C dominant scale would look like this from C to C

C B Bb A G F E Eb D Db C

or it could be:

C A Bb A G F E Eb D Db C

Loads of variations possible

**PMB** · 07-05-2016, 07:40 PM

Part of the problem here is how we often reduce tendencies to a normative code of practice. It reminds me of Adolph Marx, a 19th century musical theoretician who used Beethoven's sonatas to demonstrate the structural aspects of that form. Problem is Beethoven's sonatas, especially the later ones, are almost a refutation of the standard model.

Similarly, we can check out Parker for instances of 'bebop scales' and chord tones on strong beats without acknowledging the many instances where he plays with our expectations. That's not to deny the contributions of someone like Barry Harris. In fact, I love witnessing the glint in BH's eye when he lays dissonant harmonies on students to show the implications of borrowing notes from the diminished scale. My hunch is that he is lot more playful with all this than many of his followers.

**JensL** · 07-06-2016, 02:12 AM

Originally Posted by jordanklemons

I'm getting a little confused here. Are we talking about the same thing? What are referring to when you say that you've heard him say "that". What did you hear him talk about. I've crossed paths with him a bit, but not much... So if youve been to master classes, chances are good you've spent more time with him than I have.

Sorry I thought that was clear from the context:

I was talking about this: "I don't recall ever hearing or seeing the idea of learning to feel the 1 and the 3. " He had a speech on learning how to feel the song where the chords change and dancing on fast bebop when he was young and the conclusion to that was to feel the music on 1 and 3.

I think it makes a lot of sense though I don't have his experience with dancing to fast bebop.

Jens

**JensL** · 07-06-2016, 02:17 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

A three added note C dominant scale would look like this from C to C

C B Bb A G F E Eb D Db C

or it could be:

C A Bb A G F E Eb D Db C

Loads of variations possible

What I like about the Barry Harris rules for adding chromatic notes in this context is that he does not try to make it into a scale but just a melodic concept that you can use when playing over a chord.

I think that is a much stronger concept that reflects the music better because it does not get mixed up with keys and scales. Nobody plays a Rhythm Changes in F bebop.

The "chromatic note" between Bb and A that would be Bb C A also sounds great

Jens

**christianm77** · 07-06-2016, 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by JensL

Sorry I thought that was clear from the context:

I was talking about this: "I don't recall ever hearing or seeing the idea of learning to feel the 1 and the 3. " He had a speech on learning how to feel the song where the chords change and dancing on fast bebop when he was young and the conclusion to that was to feel the music on 1 and 3.

I think it makes a lot of sense though I don't have his experience with dancing to fast bebop.

Jens

Barry often mentions that you should feel 1 and 3 in the lower body and 2 and 4 in the upper body, and relates it to dancing.

**Jazz_175** · 07-06-2016, 10:32 AM

For those interested there is a book of Ramon Ricker, vol 4 of his improvisation series , devoted to the Melodic Minor Scale. The scale is played with one note added between 5th and 6th degree.
(Look at the last line of post 39 by princeplanet:
For G7alt try Abm6 .......Ab Bb B Db Eb (E) F G )

**Hep To The Jive** · 07-06-2016, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Barry often mentions that you should feel 1 and 3 in the lower body and 2 and 4 in the upper body, and relates it to dancing.

Where exactly in the lower body? I think I might got that one right!

**christianm77** · 07-06-2016, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

Where exactly in the lower body? I think I might got that one right!

He didn't specify, but there was a twinkle going on.

**jordanklemons** · 07-06-2016, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by JensL

Sorry I thought that was clear from the context:

I was talking about this: "I don't recall ever hearing or seeing the idea of learning to feel the 1 and the 3. " He had a speech on learning how to feel the song where the chords change and dancing on fast bebop when he was young and the conclusion to that was to feel the music on 1 and 3.

I think it makes a lot of sense though I don't have his experience with dancing to fast bebop.

Jens

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, we were both talking about beats 1 and 3. But I was steering the conversation toward FEELING those beats in a visceral way... whereas all that I've seen in BH's written materials, heard him talk about in person, or seen pushed in this thread and on the forum is the theory behind how the added notes adds up mathematically.

I happen to love Barry's playing. A lot! And it's entirely possible that he talks about FEEL in person, and I just wasn't there for those classes. And maybe he has books that I haven't read where he discusses it. But the conversations in these threads always revolve around the theory. And frankly, the theory is very basic to me. Anyone who doesn't understand it but can count to 4 and understands the diatonic and chromatic musical alphabet should be able to sit down and in under 30 minutes have their mind wrapped around it.

But that will not be enough to then jump on a bandstand for a performance and be able to keep up with a 200-300bpm bop tune when the drummer is messing with the rhythms, the pianist is comping in a syncopated way, a form is flying by, 8th notes are whizzing by, etc. All we have then is feel.

I was able to study briefly with an incredible drummer. His swing feel and time are just ridiculous... but he's one of the guys at the forefront of pushing the boundaries and limits of odd times, metric modulations, polyrhythms, etc in my opinion. He can take the most complex rhythm in the most insane odd time and write it out on the board showing where the subdivisions fall and circling this and counting that... and he can literally explain it to a 5 year old in a way where that kid will understand the theory of it. But I guarantee you, that understanding will not be enough to be able to feel that rhythm and just jump up and start improvising freely over a standard in that odd time. I've tried... and have seen others try. And it's brutal. That's where the theory only takes one so far and feel has to come in. And he has specific practices to help others feel those rhythms so that they can be utilized. Walking, clapping, tapping on your chest or legs, humming basic melodies while doing all that, etc. Physical things to develop feel.

That's why I'm thrilled to know Barry is utilizing some type of physical movement to help others feel this stuff. And THAT is what I was asking about. How does he teach the ability to feel it... not to count it. Any chance you'll post a video of you doing his dance?!?!?!?!?!

I for one would love to see!

**jordanklemons** · 07-06-2016, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by JensL

What I like about the Barry Harris rules for adding chromatic notes in this context is that he does not try to make it into a scale but just a melodic concept that you can use when playing over a chord.

I think that is a much stronger concept that reflects the music better because it does not get mixed up with keys and scales. Nobody plays a Rhythm Changes in F bebop.

The "chromatic note" between Bb and A that would be Bb C A also sounds great

Jens

I totally agree with this Jens. Leaving the bebop scales behind was the best thing that I ever did for my bebop playing. They may help others, and that's great, but for me they were a hinderance. And personally, I felt that Barry's method (while it did leave the scales behind and is closer to my way of practicing this stuff) had too much thinking and planning and counting involved.

My approach was just to learn to feel the beats before they get there. Then, who really cares how many notes you're adding? I add as many as I want or need to get to the note I want to land on when it feels right.

It would be like if I invited you over to my apartment and said, okay, turn left when you get out of the elevator. Now, if you take large strides, count out 17 steps and I'm the door on the right. If you take medium sized strides, take 21 steps. If you take small strides, take 28 steps. If you turn out of the elevator and pivot onto your left foot (since you're turning left), you can subtract 1 step. If you turn out by pivoting on your right, you're a step farther away and you need to add another step. If you're this tall vs this short, add or subtract this or that. I'm sure we could come up with some system that would quite accurately help everyone find my apartment this way.

Or, I could just tell you my apartment number... and when you get there you get there. That's just my view and what I've found works for me, much faster and more effectively then anything else.

**mr. beaumont** · 07-06-2016, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

He didn't specify, but there was a twinkle going on.

Free your mind, and your ass will follow.

**JensL** · 07-06-2016, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by jordanklemons

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, we were both talking about beats 1 and 3. But I was steering the conversation toward FEELING those beats in a visceral way... whereas all that I've seen in BH's written materials, heard him talk about in person, or seen pushed in this thread and on the forum is the theory behind how the added notes adds up mathematically.

I happen to love Barry's playing. A lot! And it's entirely possible that he talks about FEEL in person, and I just wasn't there for those classes. And maybe he has books that I haven't read where he discusses it. But the conversations in these threads always revolve around the theory. And frankly, the theory is very basic to me. Anyone who doesn't understand it but can count to 4 and understands the diatonic and chromatic musical alphabet should be able to sit down and in under 30 minutes have their mind wrapped around it.

I get that, people talk much less about rhythm and feel than they do about scales and arpeggios. I think that the forum is not a good medium for that kind of discussion, you need recordings and taste. That might be why Reg is always calling for recordings?

If you talk about theory it's much easier and there is much less taste involved.

Originally Posted by jordanklemons

That's why I'm thrilled to know Barry is utilizing some type of physical movement to help others feel this stuff. And THAT is what I was asking about. How does he teach the ability to feel it... not to count it. Any chance you'll post a video of you doing his dance?!?!?!?!?!

I for one would love to see!

I suspect that the world would be a better place if I did not try to do that

I am curious if there isn't one of the videos on YT where he talks about this? It came up every year when he came to the school I studied at, and so much material from those workshops have been published.

Jens

**christianm77** · 07-06-2016, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by jordanklemons

That's why I'm thrilled to know Barry is utilizing some type of physical movement to help others feel this stuff. And THAT is what I was asking about. How does he teach the ability to feel it... not to count it. Any chance you'll post a video of you doing his dance?!?!?!?!?!

I for one would love to see!

You aren't the only one. I want to see the Barry boogie. Now

**Stevebol** · 07-06-2016, 06:07 PM

Yes.
Your teacher knows what he's talking about.

**bako** · 07-06-2016, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Free your mind, and your ass will follow.

or the inversion:

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

**pushkar000** · 07-07-2016, 11:43 AM

I gave up on bebop scales, just never made sense to me. Don't really mind letting it go. Still can't play bop, but its not like I could play bop when I was using the scales anyway.

**Boston Joe** · 07-07-2016, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by pushkar000

I gave up on bebop scales, just never made sense to me. Don't really mind letting it go. Still can't play bop, but its not like I could play bop when I was using the scales anyway.

I tell people, "I play fake bop and fake bossa, but it's all real Joe."