-
so my improv teacher is having me work through some solos out the Charlie Parker Omnibook. Right now I'm working Chi Chi and there's notes all over the place. He told me it's better to stay in one position but most of the guys I see seem to be moving around the neck. There seems to be pros and cons with both. One position makes it easier on my left hand but harder on my right hand, and moving around the neck does the opposite. Now, he's a trumpet player, not a guitarist, so I thought I'd get your guys' opinion what which works better for each of you.
-
07-06-2009 02:15 AM
-
I really don't think it's possible to play many of those lines in one position. But, as a technical exercise I suppose, you can try to play as much as possible in one position. Personally, I think that one of the most important things about learning lines from horn players, though, is that it forces you to get away from positional playing and "guitaristic" vertical playing.
-
One position makes it easier on my left hand but harder on my right hand, and moving around the neck does the opposite.
As technical problems, that is all interesting. But, in my view anyway, the whole point is to learn how Bird constructs his lines and patterns, build up some jazz vocabulary, etc.. and not worry so much about what finger goes where.
-
I'd listen to your teacher for the exercises he gives you, unless you don't get allong with him as a teacher.
-
i agree with the post^^
-
I agree...it's practically impossible to stay in one position if you're going to play Bird. I recently learned the head to Ornithology (in two separate octaves), and I had to shift quite a bit in order to make it. Tough lines!
Another thing to remember is that if a line seems impossible in one position, try it either up or down the fretboard on another string. Often this makes it easier to play. And in some cases, I just had to drop a note here or there to make it possible. He plays so damn fast!
-
Yep, for the fast stuff (300 bpm!) you have to experiment not only with positions, but with your right hand work, when to pick, when to slur or slide.
Ultimately, it's always easy to decide which way out you prefer, simply on how good it sounds. Sometimes slurring feels better, but you miss out on articulating accents, which is a big deal with Parker. Infact, I sometimes find I eschew a perfectly easy fingering for a slurred phrase and go for the harder position that presents better right hand articulation options. Consequently I'm all over the neck.
The downside is that it makes it hard to then just play the solos in all 12 keys! That is the real power behind playing in one position (and hence your teacher's advice), it's easier to transpose...
Out of interest, what are people's fave Bird solos for guitar? I only know Koko, Billie's Bounce and Parker's mood, but I might do a few more, before I try some Cannonball Adderley!Last edited by princeplanet; 07-06-2009 at 12:01 PM.
-
my personal favorites are yardbird suite (works really well for guitar), now's the time, star eyes, and chi chi
Originally Posted by princeplanet
also, thanks for the tips everyone. for transposition sake, i'm trying to stay mostly in one position, or at least a 7 fret range or so. it's actually really good string-skipping exercise and really works out my hybrid picking (which i definitely need work on)
-
It's all about the right hand- ain't it just!
-
I'm just starting to get serious on the Omnibook stuff myself. Previously, I would just take a few licks here and there. I tried to work through a whole tune (Anthropology), but I got frustrated after about two or three days of spending a few hours on just that. i wasn't sure there is any point in going through the trouble to learn a whole solo up to speed, much less memorize. How do you guys approach this sort of task? Do you build up slowly, graudally increasing the tempo, and just keep working for say an hour a day or something until you get it? Or just take it piece by piece. There's just so DAMNED much to practice and work on. I need some idea if this is worthwhile or not.
-
Trust me, I'm skeptical of just about everything I practice, but I got encouraged to learn that Bird himself got good by first learning just a few solos inside out. Piece by piece, and as slow as you need to to play it well, then gradually speed it up. This is where it tests you're right hand, what I do is I learn every phrase one at a time, then I try to play it up to speed and study why I can't, then I vary the right hand approach and relearn how to play it, slow then gradually speed it up. Hundreds of times! Just burning it into my muscle memory. Originally Posted by franco6719
The reward is that when you can play along with Bird, after a couple of hundred runs through, you start to get a feel of the internal logic of his lines. You internalize them to the point that when you go to bed, you find yourself spinning ideas in your mind based on the Bird phrasing. That's the unexpected payoff, right there!
It's kinda like Zen or something, the reward only comes after much meditation and repetition....
-
Wow, you learn quick! I bet I played the head to Ornithology 1000 times before I even started to "get it". Originally Posted by princeplanet
-
Ha!, OK, I'll come clean, it was more like a coupla thousand! What can I say, flesh is dumb..... (especially mine). Originally Posted by FatJeff
-
I think the ultimate goal of a Jazz Guitarist is to be able to play all he hears in one position (unless of course it is not actually playable in that position).
But certain bird lines are definetely hard to play in one position but it's definitely something to try.
I managed to play the head of donna lee in one place around fret 2 ~ 5 with ocassional fret 1's and fret 6's.
To be able to improvise in one position is great because you can express any ideas without moving everywhere therefore is more efficient. (This may actually differ because the line may not be efficient to play in one position..)
Well.. This probably sounds like crap.. After all I'm just a lowly high school
kid..
-
I have decided that unless it comes natural to you trying to play like Parker is a fruitless excercise.
Either you can or you can't.
I can't. I can play blues with the best of them but I just can't get the bebop thing going regRDLESS OF THE THEORY i KNOW.
-
That's because it's hard to undo the years of blues conditioning and hearing ideas based on box position penatatonics. It can be done it just takes longer. Originally Posted by Paul J Edwards
-
it will surely come over time.. Surely your blues thing didn't come overnight? Originally Posted by Paul J Edwards
Bebop is more about arpeggios and chromaticism than anything else I think.. My teacher used to tell me that bebop is Argeggio up and than chromatic or scalic down and there's a bebop phrase.
All those altered ideas is certainly part of bebop but all the theory knolwedge you need to know is basically major and minor for a start.
Over a 2-5-1 using the major scale you can just do an arpeggio on the 2 - 1 3 5 7 on the 5 voice lead into the 3rd of the 5 than go down 3 9 1 7 and finish on a long note on the 3rd of the 1.
So it would be
ii........ /V........ /I
1 3 5 7 3 9 1 7 3
Which in the key of Cmajor would be
Dm...... /G........ /C
D F A C B A G F E
Constructing bebop lines is really easier than most people think. (I think so anyway)Last edited by itsall4you; 07-07-2009 at 11:42 PM.
-
While that is good practice to get the sound and feel of bebop (as well as the all important way of phrasing and accenting), I think you'll find most bebop lines bear little resemblance to this simple "arp up scale down" formula.... Originally Posted by itsall4you
-
Originally Posted by Paul J Edwards
That is the most complete nonsense I've read in long time!! First of all, you don't want play JUST LIKE Charlie Parker, you want to play, ultimately, in your own style which may be influenced by Wes Montgomery, Charlie Parker, John Scofield, Robert Johnson, Bach or whatever the heck you like to listen to and learn from. Second of all, you can't sound like Charlie Parker or John Coltrane, etc... for many reasons: Different instruments and different life experiences, different time periods, etc..
You can learn to play jazz, if that's what you mean. It takes an enormous amount of work to play it well, with interesting lines and with the right feel, etc.. but people learn how to do it, to some extent, all the time and all over the world.
-
Originally Posted by princeplanet
No, and as I think any of the pros and people who have been studying and playing professionally for a longer time than I have will agree, there are no simple plug-in formulas and such things that one can point to and say "Learn this and you will play bebop". There are many different approaches and helpful knowledge, like the fact that arpeggios and chromaticism is very important and common. On the other hand, you might think that the key to jazz is bebop scales and melodic minor, or something like that. I reality,it is all of these things and, most importantly, good tone, feel, rhythmic versatility, etc..
-
Sorry, I meant it is a good way to start constructing some basic bebop lines. Didn't mean to sound like that.
-
I agree, it's a good start, although, in my case I think I spent too much time with simple formulas like this.... Originally Posted by itsall4you
-
..Ornithology can be played pretty much in one position;
the way I approach it, is to try and play everything the easiest/most natural way, which usually means staying in position as much as possible, and shifting positions when necessary.
-
Hey dude calm down!!! OK Originally Posted by franco6719
My point is that even though Parker worked super hard he would still be just a hack without his innate talent. I also never said anything about playing just like Bird. Are you just making stuff up to support your argument.
My point is either you have it or you don't. I can rock hard like a swing thing like early Stones or Elvis. That dotted eighth swing that real RnR has.
I will never do bop as well as I can RnR.
Maybe I am wrong but still..... chill.
-
You already know that the tone and effect of the note at different positions change. Learn in more than one position then take different parts of the solo and play in different positions until you like, and are comfortable with the solo being yours.
Reply With Quote
Playing live and getting the best sound from the...
Yesterday, 02:08 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos