Going after target notes in your guitar solos

**mr. beaumont** · 06-12-2016, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by vintagelove

There's always room for a little blues...

At least if you're doing it right.

**christianm77** · 06-12-2016, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by vintagelove

I think this is the 3rd time it's been pointed out to you, we're not talking about Indiana.

BTW, I would appreciate if you would stop implying I am somehow confused, as superimposing a ii over a dom7 (they are really the same thing) isn't exactly rocket science. Thanks.

P.S. Gb is the first note on the Bb7.

I mean we are talking at cross purposes.

I have my working model of how it all works but I don't appear to be a terribly good job of communicating it. It's not important really as you haven't directly asked for my help.

However: if you are interested and if it makes any sense - the idea that you might substitute a Cm7 or a Ebmaj7 or a Am7b5 on a F7 for me is implicit in the statement, here is a F7.

In that sense, a ii V is the same thing as a V because a ii is part of V - they are part of the same system. This is what I have learned from Barry.

Obv. not everyone thinks this way.

I would do it without thinking during improvisation now, so I don't really talk about it when I discuss these stripped down changes or the fact it makes (to me) no sense to talk about Donna Lee changes being different to Indiana changes.

Same as if I say Rhythm Changes is really Bb | F7 | Bb | F7 | Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb | F7. I don't mean play those exact arpeggios, because that would sound like Lederhosen music. ;-)

**christianm77** · 06-12-2016, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by vintagelove

Btw, about that Gb. I don't overthink it to much. To my ear it's just a little "blues move" (1 b3 4 b5 5 b5 4 b3, going to half dim off the 3rd of the dom7) out of a little Cmin thing (which there are several "excuses" for).

There's always room for a little blues...

Now I've looked at the chart, I see that I hear the first two beats of the Bb7 as an extension of the F7 chord.

**christianm77** · 06-12-2016, 06:32 PM

In fact, I think you could hear the whole first phrase as being displaced back by two beats - you don't really get the F7 sound until the second half of the second bar (it's an Ab major scale until it hits the A natural), and obviously the phrase starts on beat 3.

Wouldn't be unusual for Parker (if he wrote DL), given he was known for turning rhythm sections around.

That's not something I've worked on personally, but it would be worth practicing taking my bebop phrases on changes and shifting them backwards and forwards. Without adding beats overall that would be tricky without a backing track.

**pingu** · 06-12-2016, 08:18 PM

On the top
Bird might have been thinking ...
|Ab. | A dim. | Bb7 etc

A dim WH over the F7 thing to get to the II7
yea that seems right to me

**christianm77** · 06-13-2016, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by pingu

On the top
Bird might have been thinking ...
|Ab. | A dim. | Bb7 etc

A dim WH over the F7 thing to get to the II7
yea that seems right to me

That's a point - yeah you could see this as a WH thing couldn't you? (Cf princeplanets thread)

The way I've been taught, I would view that A dim thing as an Ab mixolydian with an optional A to nail the third of that F7 chord.

That's how I now approach the vast majority of minor ii-V-I type and leading tone dim7 situations - backdoor with a raise one. Looking at this from the point of view of the dim7 chord I have these notes to play with (not including passing tones etc)

C# D E F G A Bb (C)
1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 6 7 (this is not how I would think of it, it's for comparison purposes only - I always think about the dominant scale a half step below.)

WH on C# dim is this
1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 6 7

Donna Lee has a lot of this motif on a dim7:
1-b3-b5-b6-6-7-6-b6-5

Obviously if you like your WH scale that's pretty WH. But I wouldn't see it like that at all. There's no clues (2, 4 say) to tell us which it is, so either interpretation is equally useful. Personally I've been practicing the Barry stuff to death so I naturally look at the line through that filter. The diminished scale interpretation didn't even occur to me till you pointed it out.

It's worth remembering analysis is not mind reading. If you are into your diminished scale stuff and were to transcribe my playing, you might go 'oh, here c77 is using the diminished scale. What does he mean he doesn't use it? What is this dude smoking?'

Analysis is rarely black and white... That's part of the fun.

It also throws up the difference between process, analysis and results.

**grahambop** · 06-13-2016, 07:13 AM

My 'target' on Donna Lee is just to get through the head in good time without flubbing any notes. Compared to that, I find soloing over the chord changes is relatively straightforward.

**christianm77** · 06-13-2016, 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by Reg

Another possibility would be to play the tune at 1/2 the tempo, maybe around mm110 and just double time the feel, same basic effect ... changes are 2 bars instead of 1. I think I remember Christian bring that approach up, anyway actually gives you more time to spell changes or melodically develop whatever one chooses.
Here's a PDF of analysis, I didn't actually put Roman Numerals, It's pretty obvious, if not I'll add etc..

Just wanted to point out having gone through the chart that the RB version of Donna Lee has quite a few differences with the Omnibook and my own transcriptions. I don't want to say mistakes exactly (well actually I do), but I think that the RB is an unreliable source for the head.

I've had quite a few problems with this with the RB. Scrapple is a classic example. Might explain why bop heads never sound that tight on pick up gigs lol!

**mr. beaumont** · 06-13-2016, 07:35 AM

Boy, this thread was not intended to be about Donna Lee specifically...but I guess it is now.

**pingu** · 06-13-2016, 08:15 AM

yeah sorry , I contibuted to that mrB

oh well think of a tune !
(great thread btw ....I find it usefull
to disscuss playing concepts wrt an actual
tune tho)

what do you think of the Adim thing ?

**Groyniad** · 06-13-2016, 08:19 AM

rythmically displacing the functions in the solo is a big part of bop - i am finding

so you wait until half way through the Bb7 sound - for example - and then play F7 - Bb7- Bbm7

or you wait until half way through the Ebmaj sound and then play Ab7 - Ebmaj7 - Ebmin7

you have a lot of leeway - at least when you make the changes appear clearly in your line

i think making your ear wait for a given sound by preceding it with 'its' dom. is an important and very widely applicable technique

**pingu** · 06-13-2016, 08:20 AM

destinytot · 06-13-2016, 08:36 AM

My idea of a target would be phrases that respect - without necessarily repeating it - the integrity of the phrase 'more-than-you + know...', i.e. half-note triplets, and a half-note.

PS Harmonically, I've learned some lines that target b9, #9, b5, #5 on dominants, and 7 to 6 on major. They sound best descending, and I precede them with an arpeggio.

(I'd like to figure out more, but first I'd like to spend time listening to Jimmy Raney.)

**christianm77** · 06-13-2016, 08:56 AM

Sorry to continue the Donna Lee ness :-) But here is my analysis of the head.

I will write a longer post on Groyniad's thread.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-13-2016, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by pingu

yeah sorry , I contibuted to that mrB

oh well think of a tune !
(great thread btw ....I find it usefull
to disscuss playing concepts wrt an actual
tune tho)

what do you think of the Adim thing ?

No problem! I just wanted to make sure people understood this idea isn't about "Donna Lee," it's about any tune--I picked Donna Lee as we were going over it and talking about playing in a bop style, which to me, this concept is. This is what beboppers were thinking about.

The A diminished thing works, for sure, the chords are practically synonyms.

A sound my ears are really liking recently is to play a half step above the V pulling you to I. And you can use almost any chord quality. Got this from an "old school" style cat I've been talking to.

Hopefully we can keep this going, talk about more ideas...any ideas on dominant areas that resolve minor?

Also, hopefully, people dig this isn't really just about reductions, or simplifications...it's still playing the changes, it's just viewing things by function. If that makes sense...I'm probably not explaining it well.

**pkirk** · 06-13-2016, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Groyniad

rythmically displacing the functions in the solo is a big part of bop

i think making your ear wait for a given sound by preceding it with 'its' dom. is an important and very widely applicable technique

This is a huge thing in preventing your solo from sounding like a computer calculation. Listen to how Sonny Rollins plays with the harmonic form.

When I'm on I try to do this. two easy tricks to start this kind of idea are

1. hang on the V and don't resolve until well into the next bar

2. If you have a familiar 4 bar progression, play it as if the time signature is 3/4 so you get to the last chord 3 beats early, and so hang on that for 7 beats

**mr. beaumont** · 06-13-2016, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by pkirk

2. If you have a familiar 4 bar progression, play it as if the time signature is 3/4 so you get to the last chord 3 beats early, and so hang on that for 7 beats

Cool idea, I will try it out today.

Yeah, anticipating, playing across the bar line, delaying...that's bop.

**christianm77** · 06-13-2016, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by pingu

I would also do this (more or less).

GDS has two stuck together:

Dm Dm/C |Bm7b5 E7 | Am Am/G | F#m7b5 B7 | Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 | C

Becomes

Dm | E7 | Am | B7 | Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 | C

Or even (if you like minor ii-V's)....

Bm7b5 | E7 | F#m7b5 | B7 | Em A7 | Dm G7 | C

Or in my BH inspired reckoning (one possible reduction)

Dm | G7 G#o7 | Am | D7 D#o7 | C/E or Em6 | G7 | C

**christianm77** · 06-13-2016, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by pkirk

This is a huge thing in preventing your solo from sounding like a computer calculation. Listen to how Sonny Rollins plays with the harmonic form.

When I'm on I try to do this. two easy tricks to start this kind of idea are

1. hang on the V and don't resolve until well into the next bar

2. If you have a familiar 4 bar progression, play it as if the time signature is 3/4 so you get to the last chord 3 beats early, and so hang on that for 7 beats

I like this. I shall practice it...

**mr. beaumont** · 06-13-2016, 12:58 PM

So to nip back at this thread, I'm finding more and more things in "small movements" that I'm loving.

So like a simple ii V I in C-- targeting Fmaj, Fminor, E minor.

Or just Fmaj (or Fmaj7b5) to E minor.

**princeplanet** · 06-13-2016, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Also, hopefully, people dig this isn't really just about reductions, or simplifications...it's still playing the changes, it's just viewing things by function. If that makes sense...I'm probably not explaining it well.

Oh, I was kinda thinking you were suggesting T/D reduction. Would be cool if you could clarify the difference, I'm trying to hang with y'all...

**christianm77** · 06-13-2016, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Oh, I was kinda thinking you were suggesting T/D reduction. Would be cool if you could clarify the difference, I'm trying to hang with y'all...

+1

How would you do a T/D reduction of Donna Lee BTW? Any reduction I come up with just looks like basic changes to Indiana.

**christianm77** · 06-13-2016, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

So to nip back at this thread, I'm finding more and more things in "small movements" that I'm loving.

So like a simple ii V I in C-- targeting Fmaj, Fminor, E minor.

Or just Fmaj (or Fmaj7b5) to E minor.

Ooh that's my favourite. Fmaj Fmin Emin FTW.

Incidentally in Barry talk that would be:
Fmaj7 = G dominant scale, arpeggio from the 7th
Fmin = Bb dominant scale (backdoor), arpeggio from the 3rd (Fm6/Dm7b5) or arpeggio from the 5th (Fm7)
Emin = C major scale, arpeggio from the 3rd

If that makes any sense at all.... Probably sounds a bit cumbersome at first, but I like the way it divides off harmonic choices from specific melodic material.

But I got into it the way you describe it before I starting doing the BH thang.

**Boston Joe** · 06-13-2016, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Ooh that's my favourite. Fmaj Fmin Emin FTW.

Incidentally in Barry talk that would be:
Fmaj7 = G dominant scale, arpeggio from the 7th
Fmin = Bb dominant scale (backdoor), arpeggio from the 3rd (Fm6/Dm7b5) or arpeggio from the 5th (Fm7)
Emin = C major scale, arpeggio from the 3rd

If that makes any sense at all.... Probably sounds a bit cumbersome at first, but I like the way it divides off harmonic choices from specific melodic material.

But I got into it the way you describe it before I starting doing the BH thang.

Seems like a complicated way of saying F Lydian, F Dorian, E Phrygian.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-13-2016, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Oh, I was kinda thinking you were suggesting T/D reduction. Would be cool if you could clarify the difference, I'm trying to hang with y'all...

Well, I'd say that definitely goes into it. The idea I'm getting at is playing to the "function" of the chord (or maybe a few chords) as opposed to playing every change or playing off common subs.

I'm not explaining well. Ok, so like looking at dominant areas, like I did above, that's a superimposition...if you changed the actual chords of the tune to that, you'd be changing the tune...but you can play that stuff to create a melodic line and it interacts with the harmony in a cool way, non-obvious (well, to me at least) ways of creating tension/resolution.