Going after target notes in your guitar solos

[christianm77]

yeah right , what beat do you think the second phrase of Donna Lee should start on ?

I think its beat 4 ?
I think ive heard people start earlier than that

Well there's yer problem - which version do you play? Do you discuss it before hand. Usually I forget.

It's the & of 3 on Parker's recording IIRC.

Also the first note is interesting as well. Most play a triplet on 3, but according to the Omnibook it starts on the & of 2. That sounds right to me, if we go by what Parker played (I mean WTF does he know? :-))

Barry Harry mentions this is how he likes to phrase phrases that start on triplets in that video that destiny posted on Groynaids Donna Lee thread.

I do think both rhythms sound a bit cooler, less 'square.'

[dortmundjazzguitar]

Now I've looked at the chart, I see that I hear the first two beats of the Bb7 as an extension of the F7 chord.

a recent health issue will prevent me from posting here in the forseeable future (i consider this a bonus). the Gb Ab F decoration obviously still is F7, the first Bb7 note is the D. lol@the guy with barlines. interested folks should revisit the other thread, this one is toxic.

[mr. beaumont]

a recent health issue will prevent me from posting here in the forseeable future (i consider this a bonus). the Gb Ab F decoration obviously still is F7, the first Bb7 note is the D. lol@the guy with barlines. interested folks should revisit the other thread, this one is toxic.

What does that mean?

Glad I could start a "toxic" thread.

[dortmundjazzguitar]

i had toundergo serious eye surgery. thread started well, not your fault.

[mr. beaumont]

i had toundergo serious eye surgery. thread started well, not your fault.

My best to you, hope for a good recovery. Also, I hope you know my "what does that mean?" comment only refferred to why the thread was "toxic," I didn't mean to pry into your medical condition. But since you shared, I sincerely hope all goes well and recovery is as quick as possible.

I'm trying to digest everything in your function video...but I think I'm going to need to do it with a guitar in hand. But that's essentially where I wanted this thread to go. Thanks for making that.

[christianm77]

a recent health issue will prevent me from posting here in the forseeable future (i consider this a bonus). the Gb Ab F decoration obviously still is F7, the first Bb7 note is the D. lol@the guy with barlines. interested folks should revisit the other thread, this one is toxic.

Darn. Well I don't consider that a bonus...

[christianm77]

My best to you, hope for a good recovery. Also, I hope you know my "what does that mean?" comment only refferred to why the thread was "toxic," I didn't mean to pry into your medical condition. But since you shared, I sincerely hope all goes well and recovery is as quick as possible.

I'm trying to digest everything in your function video...but I think I'm going to need to do it with a guitar in hand. But that's essentially where I wanted this thread to go. Thanks for making that.

Amen to that....

I don't see it as toxic. Not seeing exactly eye to eye with everyone here, sure, but I don't feel any bad feeling myself. If others do and I'm the cause, my apologies. It's just internet BS.

Truth is it's not important how anyone thinks. The important thing is how they play. I lose sight of that sometimes in my enthusiasm...

[mr. beaumont]

Truth is it's not important how anyone thinks. The important thing is how they play. I lose sight of that sometimes in my enthusiasm...

Right?

Although, when I like the way somebody plays, I sure as hell wanna know how they think!

[dortmundjazzguitar]

its not my vid, couldnt watch it. i saw yours and it is good. and DL is just indiana.

[christianm77]

In 'a Jazz Life' - John Klopotowski refers to Tristano school musicians calling head by the name of the changes - for example, they would call 'All of Me' but play the head 'Line Up' by Tristano or something (IIRC).

Not a practice friendly to outsiders!

Wondering if that was based on earlier bebop practice on gigs.

[dortmundjazzguitar]

Amen to that....

I don't see it as toxic. Not seeing exactly eye to eye with everyone here, sure, but I don't feel any bad feeling myself. If others do and I'm the cause, my apologies. It's just internet BS.

Truth is it's not important how anyone thinks. The important thing is how they play. I lose sight of that sometimes in my enthusiasm...

yes, i withdraw that statement. blame it on the meds and my usual grumpy self. see you guys around.

[mr. beaumont]

its not my vid, couldnt watch it. i saw yours and it is good. and DL is just indiana.

Well how about that, just noticed that that's Groyniad (Trigg) playing, not you. Guess that's what happens when I just "listen" to a video instead of watching it.

[ESCC]

Mr. B, Christian, Reg, and the rest, thank you for this thread.

As a pure hobbyist who is always striving to learn more and gain a better understanding of "jazz" I find the combined wealth of knowledge and experiences that you bring to the table extremely enlightening. It is very hard to define jazz and how "best" to play it . . . to me that's what makes jazz so appealing. In reading the commentary of those who "live" music, and jazz in particular, this fact becomes more apparent - the approach each of you takes to interpreting/playing jazz may be different but there is no inference that one approach is wrong and the other is right . . . after all it is jazz. If you think about it, it's the "differences" that makes jazz interesting and unique, as a student trying to better understand jazz, I find this liberating.

Enough rambling, back to substance.

[grahambop]

Well there's yer problem - which version do you play? Do you discuss it before hand. Usually I forget.

It's the & of 3 on Parker's recording IIRC.

Also the first note is interesting as well. Most play a triplet on 3, but according to the Omnibook it starts on the & of 2. That sounds right to me, if we go by what Parker played (I mean WTF does he know? :-))

Barry Harry mentions this is how he likes to phrase phrases that start on triplets in that video that destiny posted on Groynaids Donna Lee thread.

I do think both rhythms sound a bit cooler, less 'square.'

I was curious about this, because I tend to play Donna Lee with the first phrase starting on beat 3 and the second phrase on beat 4. So I checked the Omnibook and as you say it starts both phrases on the 'ands' before the beat. The Real Book (at least the Hal Leonard version I have) says beats 3 and 4.

So I ripped the Savoy master take from my CD copy and played it back at half speed, and to my ear, Bird definitely starts those 2 phrases on beats 3 and 4 respectively. Not that it matters much, but I will carry on doing it as Bird did!

[christianm77]

I was curious about this, because I tend to play Donna Lee with the first phrase starting on beat 3 and the second phrase on beat 4. So I checked the Omnibook and as you say it starts both phrases on the 'ands' before the beat. The Real Book (at least the Hal Leonard version I have) says beats 3 and 4.

So I ripped the Savoy master take from my CD copy and played it back at half speed, and to my ear, Bird definitely starts those 2 phrases on beats 3 and 4 respectively. Not that it matters much, but I will carry on doing it as Bird did!

Well clearly Charlie Parker is wrong. The omnibook is definitive...

Tbh I'm not sure what I do now. Probably best to start those two phrases in the beat then...

*embarassed cough* move along nothing to see....

[christianm77]

OK having checked the recording, I concur with my worthy constituent Grahambop.

Should probably have checked the recording before sounding off, no ;-) There's a lesson in that, right away, no?

Actually not the first mistake I've seen in the Omnibook. I'm renaming it the Omnishambles in all future correspondence.

(Bad language BTW ;-))

[Jonah]

Excuse me for developing off top.. but the discussion on DonnaLee/Indiana ids so interesting I could not resist.
To me most Parker’s tunes (and many other bop-tunes) imply much more intensive harmonic movement than the original changes are.
The basic traditional changes is his starting point…

I noticed that in practice… in soloing I am not much of a traditional authentic bop player. So whenever I played Parker’s tune head I had a question: ok… what now? The changes are quite basic and fit almost any jazz style… and I do not want to imitate traditional bop… it sounded like after the head I jumped back to my preferences in language… so another question that came up to me then… why did I play the head (and complex one!) at all if it has nothing to do with the solo I play after it?
So I began to look for some reference points in the tune…
I came to hearing that in a very general sence he does not think in cathegories traditional harmony… though his phrases often seem to be played straightly through changes.. and melodic tension/resolutions are often similar to swing style (and even classical)… this is just a convention he was given at the moment… the real context of musical life he had to deal with…
So he used these traditional tools (i.d. harmonic changes, and melodic tools based on it) and tried to go beyond it…
I will dare say that his thinking was in a kind ‘harmonic modality’ … the energy of intonation in his phrasing is strong that it re-organizes harmonic relations…
That is why at least for me it is important to find some more reference point in his tunes than just original harmonic changes… it’s not that I do it always conciuosly

Of course… some tunes (like Anthology for example) are really more traditional
But in general… The traditional harmonies Bird often used being deprived of his melodies lose their harmonic relations…. In traditional sense.
(I remember being a kid I could memorize changes of Donna Lee because I did not relate these traditional harmonies I could hear turnarounds with melodic structure)
The speed also matters… these tunes are often played in slower tempo than Parker did and this way the players began to highlight the origins of melodic phrases based on original harmonies often…
It’s like we are looking at the score abstractly and analyze and see that the tune fits the changes…
But when I hear Bird play it… usually much faster… I hear that it becomes almost exclamations… each phrase is played so fast that sounds almost like a single intonation..
This makes me think that really heard it from absolutely different perspective…
All his playing was kind of ‘overcoming’ of given stipulations… and now we often on the contrary reduce it back.

[christianm77]

I would say that Indiana was played at the same tempo as Donna Lee if not faster (because the melody permits it)

Here is the first jazz recording of it. I would say the tempo is similar to DL. The thing that makes it feel relaxed is the fact that the feel is very much in two, which is also how you should feel up bop even if it's played in four.

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I've frequently played Indiana at 280+ on trad/swing gigs.

It's a myth that bop was faster than prewar forms. Evan Christopher points out that Louis' Dinah was called in at the same tempo as Giant Steps.

The fact that these fast two-steps feel so relaxed is a lesson in itself. And why you should tap your foot on 1 and 3 ;-)

[grahambop]

OK having checked the recording, I concur with my worthy constituent Grahambop.

Should probably have checked the recording before sounding off, no ;-) There's a lesson in that, right away, no?

Actually not the first mistake I've seen in the Omnibook. I'm renaming it the Omnishambles in all future correspondence.

Actually Christian I only checked because I assumed you were probably right, and I assumed I had been playing it wrong, especially as the Omnibook showed it the way you said!

I think the worst thing I have found in the Omnibook is the notation of that wacky intro to Koko (the bit with just Bird, Diz and Max Roach, before the proper 'Cherokee' changes and Bird's solo start). They have definitely got it going onto the wrong beat at some point, like they've dropped a beat or something. But it is a pig of a line to notate (and play), I sort of gave up trying to make sense of it to be honest.

[grahambop]

my worthy constituent Grahambop.

Haha , nice Bird quote by the way (Live at Massey Hall)!

[Jonah]

I would say that Indiana was played at the same tempo as Donna Lee if not faster (because the melody permits it)

Here is the first jazz recording of it. I would say the tempo is similar to DL. The thing that makes it feel relaxed is the fact that the feel is very much in two, which is also how you should feel up bop even if it's played in four.

I've frequently played Indiana at 280+ on trad/swing gigs.

It's a myth that bop was faster than prewar forms. Evan Christopher points out that Louis' Dinah was called in at the same tempo as Giant Steps.

The fact that these fast two-steps feel so relaxed is a lesson in itself. And why you should tap your foot on 1 and 3 ;-)

I would disagree Chritian... if you take just bpms of rythm section - yes...

But musically Anthropology in original version sounds much faster than fast version of Indiana...

(Say.. Jim Hall and Peter Bernstein are not fast players but they can play in fast tempos...)

It's the way the musical ideas develope...

Donna Lee should be slowed down at least 1/3 of its orginal tempo to make it close to tempo of fast Indiana... from point of view of how music goes...

Indiana melody goes double-time

PS
By the way it's one of the specific jazz features... that melody and comping exist in different timings

[christianm77]

I would disagree Chritian... if you take just bpms of rythm section - yes...

But musically Anthropology in original version sounds much faster than fast version of Indiana...

(Say.. Jim Hall and Peter Bernstein are not fast players but they can play in fast tempos...)

It's the way the musical ideas develope...

Donna Lee should be slowed down at least 1/3 of its orginal tempo to make it close to tempo of fast Indiana... from point of view of how music goes...

Indiana melody goes double-time

PS
By the way it's one of the specific jazz features... that melody and comping exist in different timings

Well that's bebop for you. More notes and a four feel. Actually, Donna Lee feels fast because of the triplets, more so than Anthropology, for example. That said, soloing wise it wouldn't be different really.

But don't miss out on the lesson on half time. That's some important shit right there.

Actually in some ways I find bop easier to play at fast tempos than swing. You can float a little more in bop. In swing you are responsible for the groove much more if there's no rhythm player. But that's another story....