Etudes for Improvisation

[johnnybobcat]

What are your thoughts on using etudes to enforce various concepts, vocabulary, voicings, etc.. into your playing? I've been transcribing a lot recently, and I've heard of Dave Liebman telling students to write etudes based on their transcribed material. I'd like to hear how this, or practices similar to this have worked for you guys.

[TH]

Big believer.
Etudes are designed for technical purposes but they also incorporate a real musical sense of flow and context; application.
When working with an idea, I like to write little tunes or exercises. They become more musical and they always evolve over time. Then they begin creeping into real time soloing situations. That's how it works for me anyway.

There are etudes out there, and traditionally have been, going back to Bach, Chopin, Shastakovich...etc. Now Greg Fishman has some really nice etudes that I get a lot out of. I love his level of technical musicianship and I get a lot from studying them.

David

[69CHARGERMD]

Truth,,,,,NICE

[neatomic]

just posted this earlier...on bruce forman thread

jimmy wyble (one of the greatest) etudes

cheers

[dingusmingus]

At the suggestion of my teacher, I've been writing out choruses lately--basically etudes on a set of changes. I think it's time well spent.

[mr. beaumont]

Count me in as another person who has benefitted greatly from--and continues to benefit from--creating etudes.

[MarkRhodes]

At the suggestion of my teacher, I've been writing out choruses lately--basically etudes on a set of changes. I think it's time well spent.

Joe Pass recommends this in his "Joe Pass Guitar Style." It doesn't have to be a whole tune / chorus either. I vi / ii V could do for a start, or a iii / Vi7 / ii / V7 /I /I. Lately I take the "Autumn Leaves" changes and see what I can come up with over them. Or the ATTYA changes (-or a section of them).

[TH]

When you make an etude, you compose. When you solo, you compose. If you solo by habit and without compositional awareness or with a respect for your available technical options, you're not putting all you can into it. Writing an etude is like making a solo with the luxury of thinking about it. It can teach you a lot about the process. And it can set a level of what is possible that you should aspire towards in your soloing.

We all hear "Learn your arpeggios, your scales, learn to play them and then solo..." but considerations like "How do I begin?", "Do I start with a longer note, a shorter idea, or what direction am I going in?", "What makes a good developed piece?, How do I develop this?" -that's all what shapes a useful etude. When you can see that this a part of the process, take it with you when you solo. It's a great way to take you to the next level of awareness when you play.

David

[pkirk]

Writing out your own etudes can reveal how well your understanding of the improv ideas you are studying
"work", in the sense that by writing out without worrying about "real time" playing, you can then hear how well your concept works
when you play it up to speed long before you can actually create in real time using the concept. I did some of that in the past, not necessarily entire choruses, composing things like like "25 lines over this 4-bar harmonic snippet based on wide interval jumps" or "some 8-bar rhythm change bridge lines built out of triad pairs," or whatever I'm working on, and I cycle through them with a backing track to hear what they sound like in context, and to try to memorize the ones I find interesting. I think it's a good way to build a bag of licks.

For me, the main use of etudes, though, is as sight reading fodder, and I'd want unfamiliar stuff to read, rather than stuff I wrote myself. Classical etudes are alright, but not that close to what you come across in jazz reading, nor do they contribute much to improving your jazz improv, so I like to read through some of the few "jazz etude" books that are around for that. In particular, the Baker one Jamey Aebersold Jazz: Jazz Alto Sax Solos/Etudes - By David Baker while perhaps not the most artistic collection of jazz solos, hammers home the familiar clichés over and over, so that you learn some of the language as you read through them.

[johnnybobcat]

Wow, thanks for so much input guys! The Jimmy Wyble etudes are particularly ear-twisting, in a good way. Are they mainly used to aid in contrapuntal improvisation?

[dingusmingus]

At the suggestion of my teacher, I've been writing out choruses lately--basically etudes on a set of changes. I think it's time well spent.

Speaking of which, here's what I've been working on, if anyone's interested.

[johnnybobcat]

That's an awesome etude! Some really hip lines in there!

[dingusmingus]

Glad you like it! The ii-V-Is in mm 17-18 and 29-30 are from Wes, and the licks labeled "hexatonic" are based on lines from the Randy VIncent Book "Line Games."

[edh]

Cool dingus.

Thanks

[Binyomin]

Maybe there are two concepts. One is a pre-composed solo. The idea there is to write the best solo possible in the hopes that similar things can be generated in a real improvisation setting. The other is an etude that might be a little artificial as a real solo, but which focuses on whatever you want to practice.

[johnnybobcat]

I would assume that the language that you insert into an etude would more easily creep into your real-time playing if it was pre-existing vocabulary, right? By pre-existing I generally mean ideas you transcribed or are familiar with vs. ideas you came up with specifically for the etude.

[srlank]

Great thread. I recently did some transcribing, and think that this might be a great next-step.

[pamosmusic]

Writing out your own etudes can reveal how well your understanding of the improv ideas you are studying
"work", in the sense that by writing out without worrying about "real time" playing, you can then hear how well your concept works
when you play it up to speed long before you can actually create in real time using the concept. I did some of that in the past, not necessarily entire choruses, composing things like like "25 lines over this 4-bar harmonic snippet based on wide interval jumps" or "some 8-bar rhythm change bridge lines built out of triad pairs," or whatever I'm working on, and I cycle through them with a backing track to hear what they sound like in context, and to try to memorize the ones I find interesting. I think it's a good way to build a bag of licks.

This is a really interesting perspective. I've had a lot of teachers tell me to write etudes for myself and I never really had the patience for it. I always sort of thought about them like drills and stuff and don't think I ever put in the time to make them actual lines that I could use later if they worked out.

[Jazz_175]

The books of Bert Ligon are full of etudes.
I found them very useful.

[matt.guitarteacher]

The books of Bert Ligon are full of etudes.
I found them very useful.

Yeah. And multiple ones on "must know changes tunes".

[pamosmusic]

The books of Bert Ligon are full of etudes.
I found them very useful.

That kind of bumps this in a different direction ....

Value of writing your own etudes vs using pre-written ones? Value of pre-written etudes vs transcriptions?

[johnnybobcat]

That kind of bumps this in a different direction ....

Value of writing your own etudes vs using pre-written ones? Value of pre-written etudes vs transcriptions?

I think that with pre-written ones it's harder to zone in on whatever it is that you actually want to practice. For example, if you wanted to practice phrases in groups of 5's or 7's, it might be kind of hard to find an etude that someone else has written that specifically targets that. With etudes you write yourself, you have freedom to tackle any subject. This thread has inspired me to write an etude on "like someone in love" and "it could happen to you," because I found that while I may have had the vocabulary to get around on those tunes, I had trouble employing it at tempo. Slowing things down by writing an etude really helped me see and hear the changes in slow motion.

Also, in the past, I've tried using the act of playing along to solos I've transcribed as my main form of practicing, but I found that only so much really seeps into your playing when your not really breaking things down and putting them into play on standards.

[jtaylor2714]

I asked the question in the other thread about this. Im finding just over the past few days these help. I was really trying to hammer in the guide tones, so I made a couple solos over a couple of standards and started practicing with them and little by little, im leaving sections out and improvising.

I was looking through the Joe Pass guitar style book last night and he talks about isolating certain chords or chord progressions and coming up with lines to fit them and see how you can come up with different sounds, substitution ideas, harmonies etc. that you could write down and internalize. That might be more helpful than writing out a whole solo.

[MarkRhodes]

.

I was looking through the Joe Pass Guitar Style book last night and he talks about isolating certain chords or chord progressions and coming up with lines to fit them and see how you can come up with different sounds, substitution ideas, harmonies etc. that you could write down and internalize. That might be more helpful than writing out a whole solo.

I'm at that part of that book too. I find it useful. It can be something as basic as a ii-V-I. In working such things out, you discover things you like--and things you don't. You get to where you know where the chord tones are in various positions (and progression) without having to think about them. It's like what Joe Elliot teaches in his Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing.

[srlank]

Out of curiosity, any of you write your studies without an instrument?