-
Hi All
I watched a video by Chris Stranding regarding playing over changes. He used a 2-5-1 in G for the lesson.
He mentions that when playing over the D7, I should think of it as a Cm7.
I'm stumped here, any idea why he would advise this?
As far as a know..
D7 = D-F#-A-C
Cm7 = C-Eb-G-Bb
Where is the relation?
What am I missing here?
-
05-16-2016 09:15 AM
-
Are you a beginner?
Are you sure he didn't say "Am7?"
Cm7 is going to give you 7, b9, 4(11) and a #5/b13
Lots to handle with care there...
-
Maybe lots of tension over the D7?
the cm7 chord tones are the b7, b9, 4 and #5 of D7......
-
Beginner, yes.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Definitely said Cm7, says it a few times
-
Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
Yeah, Cm7b5 did come to mind. Which kind of an Ab9...Am7, Ab9, Gmaj7...cool.
On paper the 4 (11) bugs me...I'll have to sneak to the auditorium on lunch and sit at a piano....
OP, So he's definitely going for the tension. It could certainly work. If you're a beginner, I'd probably say nail the regular changes first before you get into any superimposing...
The b9 is a "juicy" note on that D7. Think of a D7b9, and how the b9 can resolve to a chord tone of the G major...Last edited by mr. beaumont; 05-16-2016 at 09:35 AM.
-
That would be a the b13/#5 of G Major? Correct? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
-
yep. Originally Posted by JazzGuitar
-
I just learned I may have heard something wrong for quite a while.
Reading this thread, I was just thinking, Wes uses a C minor triad (1st inversion) over D7 in D Natural Blues.
I went to find a link for the thread, and every transcription I find actually writes this not as Eb, G, C (C minor) but as Eb, F#, C (Eb diminished/C diminished).
Check it out here--Bar 4, beat 4 of Wes's solo (which starts on page two)
http://in.music.sc.edu/ea/jazz/Trans...ons/DBLUES.pdf
I'm going to listen when I get home. In any case, either one seems to resolve well to B, when D7 is going to G7.
-
cm7 to gmaj7 is a good way to get a nice altered dominant sound in G
there is no way to play bebop style music without these altered dominant sounds
so even for a beginner - advising the use of cm7 to Gmaj 7 resolution as way to get more out of d7 Gmaj7 is perfectly sound i think
(and it does imply the 'back door' progression - or is it)
-
its a mistake to try to learn to play bop style music first off without the altered dom. sounds to try to make it easier
it does not make it easier
you just can't make it sound anywhere near right and that messes you up big time
2 minor 6th chords unlock the sexy dominant sounds for you
in G they are
Cm6 and Ebm6
Abm6 and Fm6 in C
etc.
-
another non intelectual
way to use that Cmin sound over
D7 in the ii V I in G is
over Am play an Amin thing
over D7 play the same thing up a min 3rd
over G play some G stuff
in , out , in
try it , it verks man
-
Isn't that the same as playing Cmin?
-
Well, C melodic minor on D7 is a valid relationship. So, C D Eb F G A B C
So on D7 you get some tensions b9 #9 but a Natural 13 which is cool. You can also use the chord D7sus b9 built from this scale which is a nice contemporary sound.
Cheers!Last edited by Jazzism; 05-17-2016 at 06:43 AM.
-
Apologies, I'm a newbie Originally Posted by pingu
Can you elaborate on this "same thing up a min 3rd" ?
Thanks
-
Playing off the b7 of the dom chord is a huge part of the bebop vocabulary. There are various devices you can use from there to access the upper structure of the chord (7 9 11 13) in a very musical way.
I would start with a maj 7 off the b7 of the dom7, that gives you the b7 9 11 13, once you have that in your ear, experiment with various other approaches. Or check out Uncle Willy Thomas, it's a huge part of his system.
-
No wait, I was right! Here is the lick:
It's a slick ii-V-I generally, but I was especially thinking of how that C minor triad sounds great and is easy to finger.Last edited by dingusmingus; 05-17-2016 at 06:25 AM.
-
It's a very basic IV V I...
Think of Key of Gmaj... use parallel Minor... Gmaj becomes G-.... the IV chord is now IV-7 and the V7 chord is how ever you choose, depends on how much you understand harmony... and obviously how well you play. Pretty easy to just use maj/min functional harmony.... or if your not a harmony guy just use the 10 step melody embellishment approach, for recovering musicians.
-
What's that cadence called--reminds me of old pop tunes...I should have payed attention in music history...
IV--iv--I
I mean, that's kinda what's at play here, really.
Still not sure if it's beginner stuff to be thinking about it in a jazz context, nor do I have much confidence in a teacher (Standring) who tells you to do something but doesn't explain it.
-
Another thing you could do is: Originally Posted by pingu
over Am7 play an Amin7 thing
over D7 play the same thing up a min 3rd (Cm7)
over G play the same thing down a half step (Bm7)
Last edited by monk; 05-17-2016 at 12:29 PM.
-
Argggghhhhh!
Why is it still news to good players that they can play IVm on a V7? Have they never learned the head to Moose the Mooche, for instance? Have they never transcribed a bop or swing era solo? I can understand people not reading a post by me, but really? ;-)
So this is what I always say:
1) 4th's on dominant seventh chords don't matter.
2) Mark Levine talks out his arse
3) There are four basic seventh chord sounds that are part of a straight dominant scale/chord, for D7 in the key of G:
D7 (V7), F#m7b5 (VIIm7b5), Am7 (IIm7), Cmaj7 (IVmaj7)
(Please ensure that all blue m&m's are removed from the m&m bowl)
4) Now there are two main versions of a cadence in functional jazz (yes there are others, but let's keep it simple)
V7 - I (major!) which is D7-G in G
bVII7 -I (backdoor/minor) which is F7-G in G
5) Our backdoor cadence has this family of four
F7 (bVII7), Am7b5 (IIm7b5), Cm7 (IVm), Ebmaj7
That's the simplest version. Yes, we can add more on top of this, raise the 1 for the backdoor, tritone subs, plagal cadences, melodic minor harmony and so on, but these are the basic sounds.
I don't make this stuff up, I learned it from people like Barry Harris, but I noticed it first on the records. If you can't be bothered to read my screeds (fair enough) or get into Barry (again fair enough) I suggest analysing some of the bebop lines you already know and drawing your own conclusions. And then see if you think Mr Stranding is right.Last edited by christianm77; 05-17-2016 at 11:59 AM.
-
Who are you yelling at?
Lighten up, Francis. It's jazz, not a life saving operation.
-
I daresay Wes got this from Charlie Christian. Just check out Rose Room, or Found a New Baby. That's just the one's I've transcribed. Maybe CC got it from Lester Young (check Lady be Good in the first 8 bars, even - I don't know, just the MOST FAMOUS FRICKIN SOLO IN THE WHOLE HISTORY OF FRICKIN JAZZ.) Originally Posted by dingusmingus
No wait, I was right! Here is the lick:
It's a slick ii-V-I generally, but I was especially thinking of how that C minor triad sounds great and is easy to finger.
Charlie Parker also used this kind of sound a lot (from Lester). Donna Lee. Moose the Mooche etc. It was an integral bebop sound.
TBH It's ubiquitous for the harmonic era of jazz. If I give examples I'll be here all day...
Oh god I'm boring myself. This forum is turning me into the most tedious man alive.
-
GAAAAAHHHHH!!!! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
(I've been talking about the IVm over V7 for years - it's basically my pet weird obsession. The penny is very slowly dropping as I realise that essentially posting anything here is a complete waste of time. I'm the internet equivalent of homeless man wandering around muttering under his own breath with a half drunk bottle of whisky.)
TBH it's about time.
*collects himself*
Yes, you can use a IVm over V7. Fancy that.Last edited by christianm77; 05-17-2016 at 12:16 PM. Reason: I don't have a weird obsession with pets
-
Christian, I love you, man--you bring so much to this forum. But I have to say this thread seems to have gotten up your dander in a way I don't follow. Originally Posted by christianm77
Anyway, I'm sure you're right--I haven't run across that particular lick from CC, but we know how much Wes learned form him, and if you say it's in Rose Room, I'm sure your right.
EDIT: we cross posted.
-
Where, here? Must have missed it....
I'm just screwing with you...most of us haven't known you for "years."
As for the concept, of course it works.
My issue is that the OP came here confused after seeing a "lesson" that introduced this topic but didn't explain it. Obviously the OP didn't see the relationship, that's why he posted. It's not a problem with the idea, it's a problem with the pedagogy.
A beginner will not be helped if they're told to do something and they don't understand why.
Reply With Quote
Has anyone played or had a Supro Amulet ?
Today, 04:44 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos