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Originally Posted by mooncef
Roni Ben-Hur has some good starter lessons on this and his book Talk Jazz is good. The real gold is in the DVDs though.
You go from simple patterns to fully fledged bop lines in clear steps. It's like magic. All based on a few simple scales. Rhythm is very important here.
In terms of modern stuff - well a lot of it can be pretty random (several high profile modern players advocate practicing scales at random rather than in patterns alone) and the other side is strict intervallic patterns through the mode etc. Very often you get intervallic patterns sequenced through the scale. Usually sits on top of a good command of conventional bop language, so I'd start there. Most modern style players to me sound like a fusion of bebop and more modal concepts.
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05-04-2016 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
If someone disagrees with this (usually to say there's loads of people who are really good at playing jazz and doing new things with the music, which is true) it doesn't alter the fact, and anyone who argues against this knows this in the pit of their stomach. Much of what made that music GREAT was the social situation and the era in which it happened. That can't be recreated by even the most talented musicians. If Louis came back today and played how he played in the 20s, it wouldn't be the same (I disagree with Wynton here.)
We all form our complicated relationships with this music formed by that knowledge.Last edited by christianm77; 05-04-2016 at 02:16 PM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Sorry if this is a side track, but could you say a little more about this? When you talk about "simple patterns to fully fledged bop lines in clear steps. It's like magic. All based on a few simple scales" are you talking about the Baker books? The Ben-Hur books? Harris videos? All of the above?
I've checked out the Baker books, but only at a superficial level.
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I can vouch for the barry harris stuff. when the pasquale grasso masterclass came out I got super into the chordal stuff (6th dim scale etc), so I got a subscription to jazzschoolonline which specializes in barry harris methods for guitar (our own alan kingstone) and piano. But anyway, today I'm watching the improv/single note stuff and it's legit
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Originally Posted by dingusmingus
Best way to learn it without being there in person, I think, are the DVDs.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Originally Posted by ESCC
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Originally Posted by mooncef
It's not that complicated... 1st you need to have separation between practicing technique and Performance.
They both need to be practices. There is no gap between technique and "language", (not really my choice of words)... but who cares.
Performing doesn't have any relationship with technique, except, lack of technique to perform, or speak whatever Language you want to speak through the guitar etc..
Your expressing yourself within the frame work of Tunes, generally needs to have organization, by that I mean you need to be aware of different approaches of creating solos, there are many.
A simple approach to start is to have target notes. That can be organized, again in many ways, but there is lots of standard usage. Generally that's all melodies are.... collections of target notes, with reference to harmony, a chord and then connected.
Take any short chord progression, create a lead line on top of each chord. Don't even worry about the organization of why you like what ever notes you like.... just make some choices and be able to repeat those choices.
Pretty simple.... have a chord progression with lead line from top notes.
Now start filling in the space, again don't worry about the organization yet.... just fill.
Hint... think of possible chords that can connect the dots,(lead line notes). Use arpeggio patterns to approach and connect the notes. The point is your going to create an approach for creating relationships, (the leadline and the arpeggio filler)... then develop those relationships.
The big picture... your becoming aware of references and relationships... and how to develop them, that's a huge part of what playing jazz is about, the next and almost more important detail.... the spatial thing. The FORM of what you play fits within the space your performing in....The better you organize the spatial thing, the better your performances will groove, feel etc...
So your technical practice BS... your skills need to be practiced, you need a level of technical skills. And then when you practice Performance, using different skills, more of what I guess you call language(s), anyway, you need to practice the technical aspects of performance. I gave you one simple approach or technique for performance...
Another... be aware of the difference between.... memorizing performance and being able to perform. The last 20+ years...there is way too much memorizing performance. And is shows.
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Originally Posted by Boston Joe
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Originally Posted by Reg
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I think that the ears are getting short shrift here. Isn't part of what you do when you play a standard to try to communicate the song in terms of melody, harmony, and rhythm? In that sense you attempt to create a coherent representation of the song. One's ears are critical.
In performance or recording, I'm leading with the melody in a harmonic and rhythmic context. Because I sing, I use my voice often for the melody part. The guitar covers the bass and rhythm. Arpeggios are one way of playing an accompaniment, hopefully with some sophisticated voice leading. One issue is being technically able to execute on guitar what you anticipate in your mind.
What happens in the woodshed includes playing scales for dexterity and evenness of tone, analyzing chord progressions, and for some voicings. I qualify that last part because at a certain level voicings become 'second nature' in terms of voice leading.
But scales are only tools to develop your technique to enable you to play what you hear or at least anticipate. Scales are not playing jazz anymore than shooting practice hoops from the foul line are playing basketball. But if you can't shoot half decently, you're not ready for the NBA.
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Originally Posted by targuit
So it's where the ear intersects with the fingers - that's the Venn diagram that represents the musician you are. But it's even more subtle and complicated than that because of the circular influence they have on each other, the ear influences the fingers, and in turn the fingers influence the ear. In much the same way that language influences thought as much as thought influences language.
It's this mysterious symbiosis that we can never fully understand, and as artists we don't really need to, just trust that it happens and look forward to it's fruit. It's not the "ears" alone, just as it's not the "fingers" alone, it's the symbiosis of the two, it's the, now get this - the "Fing-ears"!
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Think a lot of the pedagogy for practice is sometimes not linked to performance. Take some well meaning advice like ,play a scale in 12 positions all over the neck. Ok great! Now that kind of practicing might be ok for a one chord vamp but how do you transfer that to playing on tunes where the harmonic rhythm might be a new chord every 2 beats. That type of practice does not prepare you for the demands of these tunes. So practicing in isolation can be a bit time wasting.
Other well meant advice. Practice scales around the circle of 4ths. I find this type of practice lazy, in that every time you change keys only 1 note changes each time. It might be more beneficial to practice going round the cycle with combinations of Maj 3rd/ Min 3rds as each time you change keys 3 or 4 notes change each time.
Another one: Play from the root of the scale on the 6th string or 5th string up to the root 2 octaves away. Again do you play like this when you perform. If so, its going to sound lame. how does this type of practice prepare you for performance? I think there is a lot of merit when playing on chords, starting a line and then changing to the appropriate note as the chord changes. Melodic voice leading, i guess!
Cheers
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Originally Posted by Jazzism
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05-05-2016, 05:45 AM #66dortmundjazzguitar GuestOriginally Posted by christianm77
surely you must have heard of people like eric kloss, paul bley, pat martino, michael brecker, jerry bergonzi, chick corea, keith jarrett, pat metheny, steve grossman or labels like cobblestone, muse, etc pp. not to mention the european scene and labels like ecm. elvin's live at the lighthouse is from 1972, rememberance is from 1978 ffs. can you say with a straight face that this stuff isn't up there with the "best" jazz?
i see this as actual attempts to alter history. the "jazz died after 1970" was initally used to discredit miles' electric phase. denying people like woody shaw their proper place in jazz history seems to be an added bonus for the revisionists. plz do not parrot that shit.Last edited by dortmundjazzguitar; 05-05-2016 at 05:52 AM.
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Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
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Originally Posted by Jazzism
Are there people who never get around to APPLYING things to the real world contexts? Sure. But that doesn't mean they should spend all of their time "performing only".
Simply playing music (or scrimmaging in athletics) is NOT necessarily the most efficient way to practice, and it's definitely not more efficient. There's a huge fallacy in this idea, which pops up all the time, that you should ONLY practice things exactly as you would play them in the real world.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 05-05-2016 at 06:35 AM.
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Nope, I never said people should spend their time just performing. You either did not read my post carefully enough or your just making stuff up. I do think that performing gives you valuable feed back about what you should practice and to how to tailor your practice to meet the demands of what you are trying to do!
Last edited by Jazzism; 05-06-2016 at 01:37 AM.
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05-05-2016, 06:42 AM #70dortmundjazzguitar GuestOriginally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
I felt I could spend a page re-explaining, but it seemed like you were responding to the statement 'jazz is dead' (which TBF, I have made on occasion) rather than the statement '1920s-70 jazz is culturally the most significant' which is probably how I should have phrased it.
I would think the second point is less controversial and if you do happen to disagree with this, you are kind of arguing against this statement to start off with.
Anyway, I don't think the music can be completely separated out from the historical/social context that it occurred in... Duke Ellington, Bird, Louis etc were who they were because of the time and place they lived in as well as their musical genius.
Assuming the level of musical talent hasn't declined (presumably there are more geniuses now then in the 20th century, because there are more people) the fact that we don't seem to have figures of that stature any more in jazz must have something to do with other factors.
Anyway, I'll start a new thread.Last edited by christianm77; 05-05-2016 at 07:23 AM.
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05-05-2016, 08:07 AM #72dortmundjazzguitar GuestOriginally Posted by christianm77
i don't think i'm equipped to enter a debate about cultural significance, but that probably wouldnt stop me from arguing that the muscial activities of jazz musicians like stevie wonder, quincy jones or nile rodgers were culturally more significant that the total body of john coltrane's work.
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Yes that Bebop site teaches how to approach the chord tones all different ways, he also analyzed some of John Coltrane solos and see how he uses chord tones.
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Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
Last edited by christianm77; 05-05-2016 at 08:46 AM.
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If i could do it again I'd have spent the first year really getting inside birds blues and rhythm changes. Slowing them down and being aware of the harmonic rhythms and what alterations to the chords they are implying(and applying). Then taking that through multiple keys. All by ear.
Transcribing: who's feel do you like the most? Who phrases melodies on the guitar in a way that you really love? There's no perfect player, everyone has something to offer. These questions will help you understabd yourself. For me it's Grant Green and Wes Montgomery if i had to pick just two. GG's Idle Moments is what really knocked me on my ass.
Jam sessions: go to every jam session and play as much as you can and hang out, leave your ego at the door and don't get discouraged by unwelcoming people. write down the tunes being called that you don't know, you dont have to learn them all right away but start listening to them.
It seens like you've done all the technical home work. Maybe just focus on getting inside the music now.
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