How did Metheny practice rhythm?

**mikostep** · 03-30-2016, 03:25 AM

Ok, I just love his playing and know by heart a lots of his work. I've listened to the lessons he gave to one student (clips are on line - many time discussed here on forum), I have his transcriptions and other material related to his playing. I've went trough it, learned some of solos, some of his songs etc. What I have noticed is that his rhythm is distinct, but somehow I think he has practicing it a lot. Paul Bley influenced him on this obviously.
So the questions are:
1. how to develop the mastery of the rhythm, or maybe better to say pulse manipulation
2. What exercises to use
3. How do you feel conceptually when playing above, bellow the pulse, in pocket

Could we make this thread a repository of exercises related to rhythm and pulse?

Thanx.

**Boston Joe** · 03-30-2016, 09:44 AM

There's another thread that talks about playing ahead of and behind the beat.

In general, practicing with a metronome is the best way to develop good rhythm. Go slower than you think you need to, and make every movement as clean as possible.

**christianm77** · 03-30-2016, 10:37 AM

Metheny mastered rhythm by playing with the best drummers in the world.

Not a lot of help. However, you can still find a good drummer and play with them. Also - why not ask drummers about rhythm? It's their trade.

Learning drums is probably a good step if possible.

**Boston Joe** · 03-30-2016, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Metheny mastered rhythm by playing with the best drummers in the world.

I'd imagine his rhythm was pretty good before he played with those guys.

**christianm77** · 03-30-2016, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

I'd imagine his rhythm was pretty good before he played with those guys.

Sorry I went to an edit frenzy - I'll repost for clarity:

'Metheny mastered rhythm by playing with the best drummers in the world.'

Not a lot of help. However, you can still find a good drummer and play with them. Also - why not ask drummers about rhythm? It's their trade.

Learning drums is probably a good step if possible.

The metronome cant teach you to swing - it can teach you how to play with a click and maybe address some issues wtih tempo and evenness, but if you want to learn human time, you are going to need to play with musicians. You don't need to find the best in the world, you need to find people how are better than you.

Playing along with records is also a good preparatory step.

**joe2758** · 03-30-2016, 10:49 AM

I really like drum genius for I-phone

**Boston Joe** · 03-30-2016, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

The metronome cant teach you to swing - it can teach you how to play with a click and maybe address some issues wtih tempo and evenness,

Which is where most people have problems.

If you set the metronome to a low tempo, and put the clicks on 2 and 4, you can practice swinging just fine.

Obviously, playing with other people is the best way to find the pocket, but nobody's going to want to play with you if your time is wobbly.

**ghoststrat** · 03-30-2016, 11:50 AM

He talks about it here:

He talks about keeping the triplet in mind, etc.

**Albatross** · 03-30-2016, 02:58 PM

I read somewhere that he used to practice a lot playing melodies and compings with the metronome's beat on 2 and 4. As Emily Remler explained in the "Swing and Bebop Guitar" Lesson. I don't know if you're familiarized with that video. If not, you should take a look at it.

**ghoststrat** · 03-30-2016, 03:01 PM

Listen to what everyone is saying in this thread, but man, check out the Metheny lesson that I posted. He spends 30 mins talking about *just* rhythm; its importance, how to shed it, etc. It's straight from his mouth and he demonstrates it, too.

**cosmic gumbo** · 03-30-2016, 09:47 PM

An important factor about Metheny's rhythm not yet mentioned, but cannot be ignored has very much to do with the fact that 90% or more of his music is straight time, and not swinging 8ths. Not your typical jazz rhythmic approach.

**nick1994** · 03-30-2016, 10:14 PM

metheny swings, he worked on mastering time and now he can manipulate it as he wishes. pushing and pulling time as well as being able to play dead centre. that's what a metronome gives you, dead centre and that's what you want, to be able have consistent pulse whilst playing with time.

**ghoststrat** · 03-30-2016, 10:59 PM

Have you guys listened to the lesson I posted? He talks about swing *and* straight 8th's. It's straight from the guys mouth, which would clear up and theorizing as to what he did.

**christianm77** · 03-31-2016, 05:40 AM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

Which is where most people have problems.

If you set the metronome to a low tempo, and put the clicks on 2 and 4, you can practice swinging just fine.

Obviously, playing with other people is the best way to find the pocket, but nobody's going to want to play with you if your time is wobbly.

Playing with a click on 2 and 4 will not teach you to swing. It can be a useful exercise - if you can make the 2 and 4 swing then you are getting somewhere. However it won't get you there on its own.

To play jazz well you have to understand rhythm. You have to understand the subdivisions, polyrhythms and be able to imagine a rhythmic phrase in detail before you play a phrase. You have to be aware of the primacy of rhythm over harmony or anything else in the music, and you need to develop a physical, innate feeling for this in your body.

You can't expect to practice with the click on and get better at 'time.' In fact, using a metronome in this way too much can make you overdependent on it.

The metronome is not a panacea for timing issues. It can be a useful tool.

EDIT: just reread your post BostonJoe - the thing about a slow metronome - putting the click on around 15 bpm on the 4 of every other bar etc - can be great for diagnosing issues with one's sense of tempo. I like to start my practice sessions playing a quarter note scale at quarter note = 10. You might want to start around 40 at first.

**nick1994** · 03-31-2016, 06:04 AM

it can make you overdependent if you're using it as a crutch, relying on the metronome to tell you where the time is, instead of internalizing the pulse.

As for swing, it is all to do with subdividing, making sure that triplet feel is constant and felt by everyone in the group. the faster you get the less the triplet is relevant because the quavers become straighter and articulation becomes key to swinging.

The metronome on the 2 and 4 is to feel the bar in 2 beats as opposed to feeling every beat. feeling every beat just kills the vibe for me especially at faster tempi

example, watch how these guys comp differently, where they place the chords. the first guy is feeling every beat and it just feels jumpy whereas jesse van ruller seems to be switching from feeling big beats to individual beats and it sits much better with me.

**christianm77** · 03-31-2016, 06:19 AM

By the way, when I say swing I don't necessarily mean unequal eights - if you listen carefully to a lot of players they are pretty straight and the swing comes from the rhythms they are playing. This is as true, IMO of Herb Ellis as it is of Pat Metheny. And I think the same thing counts for swing and straight eight feels.

Anyway, the Metheny lesson is a great source.

It's interesting that he more or less says that the way he really learned is playing with other players - the drum machine (!) stuff and feeling triplets etc - I get the feeling that he must have internalised that a different way and that's just a way of teaching it - possibly with a metronome and maybe with singing or playing along with records.

I think it's pretty sound advice - feel the 1/8s and 1/8 triplets and also get into the 1/4 triplet as well.