The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    yes, the intervals are not the same. but are we playing these modes in order everytime we improvise? i'd argue that context is just as important as content.

    true, the A Aeolian sounds a heck of a lot different than a C major scale, I agree. But over a C major it's still the same pool of notes, and it's a safe choice. maybe it's just the way i think, but if somebodywere to tell me they were working a "B locrian lick" over a C major, they'd get an eye roll from me.

    different schools of thought, i guess...i come fom the arpeggio/chord tone school...but in the end, it's all just different roadmaps to the hopefully the same destination-- an interesting melodic line.

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

    i often feel that "modal" jazz is a misnomer...the music made during this period alowed for a lot more freedom than a prescribed set of 7 notes at any given time.

    again, the point i'm making is that playing a G mixolydian over a C major 7 is nothing special...am i the only one here who sees that it's a completely the same pool of notes as a C major scale?
    I have to agree with Mr. Beaumont on this one. I've learned all the names and positions of the modes when i was just learning how to play, when I was about 14. I find that thinking in G mixolydian or whatever is still playing in C major. what works for me is simply to be aware of the chord tones of the chord you're on at the moment, and target the chord tones, thinking in modes never really work for me.

  4. #28

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    Mr Beaumont & I are musically from the the same school of thought. Arpeggios & chord tones usually outline the thought path for my improvisation on most tunes. I have studied modes and harmonizing six ways from Sunday but I don't think fast enough to remember and use all I have learned on the fly so I usually stick to using arpeggios and intervals from the chords. Actually, many of the melodies come from the chord tones (check out "All The Things You Are") and I usually end up with quite a bit of the melody built in to the solo.
    best wishes,
    wizard3739

  5. #29

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    I agree with Mr B and Wizard regarding the role of modes in traditional jazz. Using the "Major" modes over a chord progression produces a decidely scalar sound that blurs the changes.

    Focusing on the chord changes and the leading tones allows the opportunity to apply chomaticisms that preserve the sense of the chord progression. As one becomes more proficient at this approach and the melody, chords and leading tones become internalized, the solos become more intricate and may create an illusion of modal approach but the effect is far more appealing and sounds like you are "playing the changes".

    IMO approaching traditional jazz from a modal perspective makes the solos sound like smooth jazz or fusion at best and a scale exersize at worst. Smooth jazz and fusion are fine I suppose but not my cup of tea.

    As far as Miles Davis goes, he pioneered the application of modal jazz but it was not the same modal concept that is commonly referred to in mainstream instructional material. Miles was actually applying the Lydian Chromatic Concept developed by George Russel, which is quite different and very theoretically dense. I find the concept interesting but I certainly can't apply it to any great effect.

    Quote from George Russel's Website....“Miles Davis became the first major jazz musician to be influenced by Russell’s ideas, and in 1958 he composed...Milestones, which was based on two modes...He recorded Milestones with Coltrane on April 3, 1958, and both men felt liberated by the new harmonic philosophy. Davis continued to work on Russell’s concepts, and...he created five selections for the first all-modal album, Kind of Blue.” Stan Getz: A Life in Jazz by Donald Maggin, William Morrow, New York

  6. #30

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    Yeah to me the whole modal thing is overly conviluted. I take a much simpler approach. When I want a mixo sound, I add a b7 to my major scale.

    When I want a dorian sound, add a major 6 to the natural minor scale. I only think in either major or minor, and just see the modal color tones around those scales. This is a much simpler viewpoint imo. But hey, whatever works.

    I think playing D dorian, G mixolydian and C ionian over a ii V I in C is boring. However, it is a place to start. I let students know of this possibility, but steer them to arpeggios at the beginning.

  7. #31

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    Agreed. I view the modes as a derivative of the major scale (all the time) and use them as a means to an end: achieving a sound that is characteristic of the harmony. I only revert to modal thinking when the chord at hand has a very specific sound (ie, Minor 6/9 chord or some of the more extended dominants). That method really helped to eliminate some of the thinking involved in the chord tone approach once I had internalized the patterns. After all, a scale is essentially a very muddy arpeggio, right?

  8. #32
    Jazzarian Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by derek
    Yeah to me the whole modal thing is overly conviluted. I take a much simpler approach. When I want a mixo sound, I add a b7 to my major scale.

    When I want a dorian sound, add a major 6 to the natural minor scale. I only think in either major or minor, and just see the modal color tones around those scales. This is a much simpler viewpoint imo. But hey, whatever works.

    I think playing D dorian, G mixolydian and C ionian over a ii V I in C is boring. However, it is a place to start. I let students know of this possibility, but steer them to arpeggios at the beginning.

    I couldn't disagree more. Having to remember to add a b7 to a major scale is much more difficult to remember than starting on a different degree of a scale.

    If I want G Mixolydian, I simply start out on G and end on G of a C Major Scale. Ever try remembering "flat whatever to get whatever" on the fly? Sorry, that won't work for most people. Most people will remember the pattern for a major scale that covers 2 octaves however.

  9. #33

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    Hmmm... Approaching modes as members of the same position would explain why you travel by keys as opposed to chords. Clever, that.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzarian
    I couldn't disagree more. Having to remember to add a b7 to a major scale is much more difficult to remember than starting on a different degree of a scale.

    If I want G Mixolydian, I simply start out on G and end on G of a C Major Scale. Ever try remembering "flat whatever to get whatever" on the fly? Sorry, that won't work for most people. Most people will remember the pattern for a major scale that covers 2 octaves however.

    Yes, I do remember to flat whatever on the fly. Don't you do this when playing in various keys, or utilizing subs? Perhaps I am missing what you are saying.

    I am aware of each tone in the major scale I am playing, so playing a b7, or a #4/#11 is no big deal in my mind. I have gotten a lot of mileage out of this in teaching, but again, whatever works.

    There is more than one (or two) ways to skin a mode. I just don't hear mixo as well when I am playing C major starting and ending on G.

  11. #35
    Jazzarian Guest
    No I don't think of naming each note as I play. I doubt I could crank out my 20 notes/second if I thought of each note's name and degree of the scale prior to playing it. Not with 50 milliseconds per note.

    Not only that, such thoughts would absolutely kill my creativity.

    Certainly I do my research first, tell myself which scales/modes/arpeggios are available over which chords, and that's about the end of my thoughts.

    What little thinking I do tends to be in scale fragments afterwards.

  12. #36
    Jazzarian Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by gravitas
    Hmmm... Approaching modes as members of the same position would explain why you travel by keys as opposed to chords. Clever, that.
    By position, if you mean displacement from the start of the corresponding major scale, that is indeed correct.

    Sometimes though, you need a new hand position for covering 2 octaves worth of mode.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzarian
    By position, if you mean displacement from the start of the corresponding major scale, that is indeed correct.

    Sometimes though, you need a new hand position for covering 2 octaves worth of mode.
    Understood. A neat concept, real economy of motion. I lean towards the chord tone approach myself, but more because I find it more difficult to get the phrasings I use for my scales Jazzy. When I play modally, it just sounds like exercises to me. Then again, I listen to John Scofield for an hour and can't help but wonder...

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by gravitas
    After all, a scale is essentially a very muddy arpeggio, right?

    Actually an arpeggio is an every other note scale.

    john

  15. #39

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    well, i won't be nitpicky, but "every other note" scale only works if we're adding the 7th, 9th, 11th and 13th to the arpeggio...sometimes we might only want some of the available notes...

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Curran
    Actually an arpeggio is an every other note scale.

    john
    Oh yeah, I know. But if you can consider any three or more notes played in unison a chord, could you not then also consider every note in a scale played simultaneously a chord too? From the major scale it'd be, like, a Maj7/6 Sus2 Add11 Chord, and it'd sound like a dog's breakfast, but it'd still be a chord.

  17. #41
    Jazzarian Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by gravitas
    Then again, I listen to John Scofield for an hour and can't help but wonder...

    I wonder if he'd sound better if I hit him in the back of the head with a 2x4.


    Why would I say such a thing?

    Check out his solo on "Norwegian Wood" from Hancock's "The New Standard". After which you might refer to him as Sucfield.

    Then again American society is predicated on absorbing the obnoxious like a sponge.


    Sorry, I've been anti-Scofield since 1989. I really dislike his "style" and his tone.

  18. #42

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    I haven't heard any of his earleir stuff, but I've heard it can be pretty brutal. Regardless, being that it's been nearly 20 years since 1989, he's had a lot of time to improve. Skills aside (and he's got a lot of 'em), his tone can be tough to get inside of. I'd shared the same opinion as you for the past three years... It's difficult to describe, but there was a moment when I went from going "Ugh, fix that tone or nobody's gonna listen to you" to "YES! Yes John Scofield! Do that all the time!"

  19. #43

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    It is a very personnal thing to improvise. Not to poeple can look at a set of chord changes and get the exact same thing out of it. That is the beauty of it. It is so individual.

    Personally I prefer to think; Major, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor.

    Then I " see" the chords in these scales and make melodies out of it! Or at least try

    The good thing about this approach on the guitar is that all my major positions are under my skin and they will flow, so I only have to think about the musical aspect of it all: what sound do I want?
    Maybe a #4 for a Lydian( major), b2 for a Phrygian( Minor), susb9( Melodic Minor) etc. etc...

    Just my 2 cents...

  20. #44

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    Most players start seeing one chord, then the V-I becomes a thing, then the II-V-I, then various other progressions. You develop a repertoire of phrases, and the skill to voice lead changes at the same time. I see transcribing as a great way to work on this. Wanna play through some changes? Transcribe a master, and now you have a top level way to do it. Then transcribe another!

  21. #45

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    Joe Pass was, and Mimi Fox is, an advocate for playing uninterrupted streams of eighth notes. Not in performance. In practice. It develops technical facility. (Rhythmic facility is important too but one cannot focus on them both at once.)

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Joe Pass was, and Mimi Fox is, an advocate for playing uninterrupted streams of eighth notes.
    Joe says that somewhere in the original (orange) book, and it's great advice, especially, if you're a blues or rock player trying to approach jazz. It forces you to navigate the changes, rather than hold or bend a note, or play a comfortable lick. It was one of the few things that really clicked for me when I first got the book as a teenager.