-
How did you guys internalize the technical side of playing changes? I've got plenty of chops, but I'm finding it difficult to play and think through chord changes simultaneously. It really has become a wall that I can't surpass. My goal is to be able to play lines of eight eighths to a bar without interruption. Could anybody suggest a method or a more effective practice routine?
-
12-01-2007 03:12 PM
-
Good question. This, imo, is one of the toughest parts of jazz guitar. Some guys accomplish it by playing a bunch of regurgitated licks, scales, and arpeggios.
I think this is a step in our development, but isn't true improvisation. Being able to play what we hear in real time, in swinging 8ths is a life time challenge.
I study with Tony DeCaprio, one of the top players/educators in the jazz world. He has a method that develops this very thing. It is no shortcut, but you won't get sidetracked by other stuff.
Tony writes a regular column for Just Jazz Guitar that deals with improvisation, has a book that deals with this topic, and has a couple of levels of teaching depending on your budget and aspirations.
tonydecaprio.com He is in the middle of a move, so he is in and out online. Good luck however you choose to pursue this.
-
I agree totally. Jazz improvisation to me is not a regurgitation of licks, but a navigation of the harmony. I love David Torn, I've got a lot of Miles Davis albums and I know there are more approaches to soloing, but I really want to get that bop chord approach down.Thanks for the link, looks like a lot of heavy stuff in there. Anyone else?
-
start by trying to play quarter notes over the bar and keep it swingin. chops will only get you so far-- once you can feel it, it'll be easier to kick it up to eights.
personally, i think running eighths should be used sparingly.
-
One of my old teachers show me that if you can play straight 8ths through a chorus or two, outlining the changes, you can pretty blow on a tune doing many things you want, including not playing 8ths.
Unless you're a sequencer, nobody would play endless eights anyway, (although in jazz there guys overdoing that). By practicing in this manner, you build confidence in note choices and rhythmic control over the changes.
I find that writing out one or two choruses, using one of the concepts I'm working on, really help. I would use nothing but straight 8ths.
-
I agbree with tung. this is a good way to hear the changes. when you play you should hear the changes. then react to the changes--not bow to them--oh mighty II-V-I, we bow to thee. make melodies.
-
12-06-2007, 10:45 PM #7Jazzarian Guest
I tend to break up chords into groups of 2 or 3, and ask, "what key contains those chords"? Hence all the modes of that scale are available, as well as the (overlapping) notes of the arpeggio of each chord. Guaranteed to harmonize quite nicely :}
ALways be on the lookout for hidden cliched progressions. Go thru the Real Book and you'll see many a well disguised ii V7, I vi ii V7 etc etc. Oh they always pull off some kind of chord substitution to mask the cliche.
-
Originally Posted by flankman
That's why i dig Ed Bickert solos, he never sounds like he's running the chords, it always sounds like he making melodies over the changes. Now a guy like Jimmy Bruno, who is a great technician, but I don't get as much emotional response to what he does, it sounds like he's running the changes most of the time.
-
12-07-2007, 04:23 PM #9Jazzarian Guest
Tung, ever heard Bruno's "Like That" with Joey DeFrancesco? You might change your tune.
Bruno is not just fast, he's very melodic and can swing like a mofo. Nice chord melody too. Octaves? Fogetaboutit. He's great.
"Like That", a most excellent CD, with a few Wes tunes to boot.
-
I'll check it out and let you know. This is in no way a diss on Bruno. I'm just saying from what I've heard, I just don't get the chills like hearing Metheny, old Benson, Rosenwinkel etc..It's a personal taste. But I'm always open to check out what you guys recommend.
-
12-07-2007, 11:24 PM #11Jazzarian Guest
If you like the aforementioned, you'd like "Like That". Trust me.
Some nice photos of his 7 string Benedetto on the cover too. I've never heard a better jazz guitar tone than that particular Benedetto.
Bruno and DeFrancesco have a way with standards. I'd like to see them pair up again.
-
Originally Posted by Jazzarian
-
12-08-2007, 01:27 PM #13Jazzarian GuestOriginally Posted by gravitas
Don't look at the chords with any kind of predisposition!
Let's say we had:
FMaj7 G7 | GMaj7 A7 | CMaj7 Dmi7 G7
Translation:
Key C Maj |Key D Maj |Key C Maj
Typically the Dom 7ths give the key away! You see an A7, you know its DMajor. Major 7ths can either be the "tonic" or "subdominant". The minor 7ths can be the ii, iii, or vi of the major scale. So with the major or minor 7ths, you have to look for other clues to resolve the key ambiguity.Last edited by Jazzarian; 12-08-2007 at 01:32 PM.
-
So what you're saying is, once you've identified the connotation of the keys you can just use their respective major scales to play lines?
-
12-08-2007, 02:27 PM #15Jazzarian GuestOriginally Posted by gravitas
Larry Carlton likes to play mixolydian over the tonic, for instance. Yep, he might play a G Mixolydian over a C Major 7th chord (key of C Major). Modes a 3d or 5th away tend to harmonize well.
The important thing is to get your bearings. What I described, relating chords to their major key is a pragmatic way to do just that. In jazz, key changes often occur from measure to measure. This is why it is so important to pick up clues from chords chopped up into groups of 2 to 3.Last edited by Jazzarian; 12-08-2007 at 02:35 PM.
-
You know, I'd never thought ofthings that way before. What a cool idea!
I've been following Mr. beaumont's advice (ie, arpeggiating the chord in quarters and isolating specific beats to approach or leave with an eighth note), which has really helped with the technical and "feel" aspect of the task. Coupled with your suggestions here, I've been finding that running these types of lines in real time has become a lot easier.
Obviously, I don't intend to make this a staple of my soloing style. It doesn't take a genius to spot that a constant stream of notes can sound tasteless, but it's reassuring to know that you can. I don't think I'll feel like a real guitarist til I'm as confident as can be that I can play changes.
-
This is why modal thinking bothers me sometimes...
C major scale: C D E F G A B
G mixolydian: G A B C D E F
why overcomplicate the same thing by calling it another name-- it's all C major...
now, try a C lydian over a C maj 7 and dig that raised 11th sound...that's when modes can be useful.
-
That's right Mr. Beaumont. All scales (modes) should be some type of lydian (lydian b3; lydian b7; etc). They are great for your vocabulary, but I don't play that way. I've leaned to hear melodies that work over changes. I practice everything in the circle order. C is the 5th of F,etc. Lydian presents you with the half octave often mislabled the tritone. I also don't like things called different names mi7b5 (correct) half diminished (wrong) same formula 1-b3-b5-b7. This is natural to life--we don't call the same person by different names. Art communicates. Whew!! Out of breath.
-
12-09-2007, 01:02 AM #19Jazzarian Guest
I have no problems with modal thinking, and have been thinking that way since I was 15. Modes sound entirely different from their parent key. Modes help with ensuring harmony, or just the opposite, if desired.
Typically I tend to think in terms of scale fragments and arpeggios when soloing.
C Lydian belongs to the key of G. So does the C Major 7th chord. I think most people would be thinking either C Ionian or C Lydian as choices for scales over such.
-
there's nothing inherently wrong with modal thinking-- my point was that we can say all day that larry carlton plays a G mixolydian over a c major chord, but unless he plays the notes in order who's gonna hear mixolydian? it's all C major...
the lydian sound over the I maj is a very hip sound, and while it does require altering the chord, many players are cool with this change.
-
Yeah, that's a nice one. I snagged that one offa John Abercrombie when I first started listening to him... Basically any mode is a hip substitute for another so long as it contains the chord details.
-
12-09-2007, 12:49 PM #22Jazzarian GuestOriginally Posted by mr. beaumont
In terms of Lydian over the tonic, that's like the "pivot chord" concept. How do the keys of C and G overlap? Certainly they have the C Maj7 in common. Thus it is perfect for a modulation. Same is true for Ionian/Lydian.
The difference being the F vs F#. Certainly F ->F# makes for a nice grace note, and the modulation is complete :}
-
12-09-2007, 12:54 PM #23Jazzarian GuestOriginally Posted by mr. beaumont
You do realize what you espouse is the antithesis of Miles Davis in the 1950s?
-
no, it's not. not even close.
modal jazz was loosely based on the modes, which meant that chord structure went out the window. when miles and company were playing a mode, the accompanyent behind it was based on tonal clusters that contained the notes in the key center, or the mode.
i often feel that "modal" jazz is a misnomer...the music made during this period alowed for a lot more freedom than a prescribed set of 7 notes at any given time.
again, the point i'm making is that playing a G mixolydian over a C major 7 is nothing special...am i the only one here who sees that it's a completely the same pool of notes as a C major scale?
-
12-09-2007, 02:36 PM #25Jazzarian Guest
Of course they're the same notes. Does the relative minor of a given major key sound the same as the major key? Of course not. Nor does the locrian sound much like the Ionian. Yet we're still entirely within the relm of diatonic scales.
They might be the same notes, the intervals certainly are not the same.
I don't memorize modes by "1/2 step whole step whole step" etc. I memorize modes as a displacement from the major scale, and by their unique sound.
Yes indeed, I do think everyone should know the natural modes of major scale. That, long before venturing into the land of the non-diatonic.
Has anyone played or had a Supro Amulet ?
Today, 04:44 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos