triads as key both to jazz harmony and the fretboard

[destinytot]

So the 7th chord thing to me looks like a window of a few decades rather than a defining style.

I love it all - but nothing else says "Hello!" to me like this 6th sound:

[christianm77]

I love it all - but nothing else says "Hello!" to me like this 6th sound:

I agree with Reg

In calssical harmony triad is in 4 voices - that's the basic way to see it in practice.

c-e-g-c1

In jazz harmony 7th chord in 4 voices

c-e-g-b


This what makes huge difference to me..
it involves different ways of harmonization of melody and bass and different voice-leading and after all it leads to very different relations - sometimes pretty close to calssical functional but sometimes very far.

Lately I begin to think of 6th chord also as of specific jazz harmony - kind of 'modification of 7th for better voicing'

Sure that'll work for 'generic modern jazz.' It's ahistorical, which probably won't bother too many.

If you get into bop or anything earlier, I'd advise thinking more in terms of triads and major and minor sixth chords... That's not to say you won't see stacks of thirds in bop (you will) but it's a mix of things...

And leaving to outline chords on straight triads is useful for any changes playing.

I suppose I'm with Jordan really - 7th chord harmony = jazz harmony is a convenient oversimplification used in education to get players going. I guess what I am saying at great length is that there may be a more useful oversimplification, especially if your stylistic entry point (bop, swing, fusion etc) is different.

[Jonah]

If we speak about fundametal things...

My suggestion: can anyone harmonize any traditional jazz standard purely with triads in a way that it will keep the jazz style harmonic feel and colour?

If it's fundamental it shoudl possible (as it is possible with traditional classical tunes)

Ok - we can add dom7th if the melody wants tat sound

[Jonah]

I love it all - but nothing else says "Hello!" to me like this 6th sound:

Sometimes i think it is even more jazzy characterestic than common 7th... I am almost sure that it appeared as substitue for maj7 when there's root in melody to avoid minor 2nd.

And to me it's also very radical step from triadic concept... because it is inversion of iim7 chord that actually became an independent chord... (that is 6th is also 7th)
to me it's absolutely the thing based into 7th chords way of thinking..
it is just impossible in triadic concept.

[christianm77]

If we speak about fundametal things...

My suggestion: can anyone harmonize any traditional jazz standard purely with triads in a way that it will keep the jazz style harmonic feel and colour?

If it's fundamental it shoudl possible (as it is possible with traditional classical tunes)

I would answer that you can harmonise a jazz standard any way you like if you understand jazz phrasing and rhythm, and the result would sound like jazz.

More specifically, What era are you talking about? Swing, bop, modern/post bop, modal, pop/fusion etc? There's no simple answer.

If I was going for a late 30s van eps/Allan reuss vibe I would use mostly three voice triads and no extensions, for example. (Later van eps is different)

[destinytot]

Not sure about the 'harmony' part in title of this thread, but the part concerning mapping/application of triads to the fretboard strike me as a highly effective way of gearing up for great sounds..."Lydia, oh Lydia! That encyclopidia..."

[christianm77]

Sorry to keep going on (I am bored today haha) but I also want to point out something I think of as overlooked by standard jazz theory.

That is - melodic/superposition practices are different often to harmony (i.e. Chords) in bop and earlier jazz practice. This is reflected in the fact that Barry Harris has a separate approach for melody and harmony for example. (I actually regard the Barry stuff as being a theory of jazz pre-1960, rather than for bop alone.)

A swing guitarist would not play an unresolved maj 7th voicing for example (7-6 is fine) but the use of an unresolved maj 7 in the melody is absolutely fine.

When I first got into playing prebop stuff I thought that I couldn't use a maj7 in soloing as I was told firmly not to play maj7 chords. Then I did some transcription and realised that Louis and django etc were doing it all the time....

It's quite a strange thing but it does appear to be the case. As jazz went on, more of the melody practices seemed to end up in the chords.

[destinytot]

Sure that'll work for 'generic modern jazz.' It's ahistorical, which probably won't bother too many.

If you get into bop or anything earlier, I'd advise thinking more in terms of triads and major and minor sixth chords... That's not to say you won't see stacks of thirds in bop (you will) but it's a mix of things...

And leaving to outline chords on straight triads is useful for any changes playing.

I suppose I'm with Jordan really - 7th chord harmony = jazz harmony is a convenient oversimplification used in education to get players going. I guess what I am saying at great length is that there may be a more useful oversimplification, especially if your stylistic entry point (bop, swing, fusion etc) is different.

Back on the (figurative) road to Rio for me:

"What we call the beginning is often the end. And to make an end is to make a beginning. The end is where we start from".T. S. Eliot

[Groyniad]

great to hear peoples' views here. really great.

i very much identify with HR's remarks above.

the MAIN point of using the triads stacked into the sound (e.g. C maj) to unpack or access both the fundamental and the extended aspects of the sound - is that it makes playing all those wonderful be-bop ideas we find (first and foremost and forever) in bird so so so much easier - it seems to unlock the sound somehow. i tried to give ONE way to make something a bit musical out of a naked triad (say G;B;D as an aspect of a C maj sound) - by surrounding the triad with other notes and paying attention to how it all sits on the bar. i also suggested ways of stitching these little (but punchy) phrase-fragments together into longer phrases.

you can play one phrase fragment using the G;B;D triad in C maj - then the same one using the E;G;B triad - then repeat that whole phrase an octave down - all joined up so it sits properly on the bar.

now you will have heard phrases like this - and they sound great and they can easily have fantastic rhythmical punch and they have air too - the light can get into them because of the openness of the triad sound at the heart of them.

there's also endless harmonic interest generated by the fact that e.g. when you unpack the C maj sound using the triads nested into it you generate sounds that can be heard against a whole series of wonderfully different chords.

Am7; Em7; D7 (!!!!!!!); F maj7 #11; F# m7 b5;

the fact that these sounds are so deeply connected to one another is a fundamental fact about the great american songbook and bebop.

so there's no conflict between this approach and the one Jeff is recommending. not at all. the point is that this use of triads is the best way to find the relevant sounds in C maj7; Dm7; G7; A7(alt) - etc. etc.

[destinytot]

Sometimes i think it is even more jazzy characterestic than common 7th... I am almost sure that it appeared as substitue for maj7 when there's root in melody to avoid minor 2nd.

And to me it's also very radical step from triadic concept... because it is inversion of iim7 chord that actually became an independent chord... (that is 6th is also 7th)
to me it's absolutely the thing based into 7th chords way of thinking..
it is just impossible in triadic concept.

That chord - on the piano, with 6-1-3 in the right hand - is instant sunshine to me. It says everything/tout/todo/tudo/tutto/alles/все/omnia (etc)...

[grahambop]

I know it's a typo but I suddenly had a wonderful image of pat in a straw boater with a banjo.

I've got a couple of Pat Metheny Group CDs and I'm sure that on one of them he uses a banjo sound on one track. Probably a guitar synth effect rather than a real one. I think it's on Still Life Talking.

[Jonah]

I would answer that you can harmonise a jazz standard any way you like if you understand jazz phrasing and rhythm, and the result would sound like jazz.More specifically, What era are you talking about? Swing, bop, modern/post bop, modal, pop/fusion etc? There's no simple answer.If I was going for a late 30s van eps/Allan reuss vibe I would use mostly three voice triads and no extensions, for example. (Later van eps is different)

Christian, I am not challenging you... I am absolutely honestly interested in how it would look like... Any jazz style at your decision... but it should be just harmonization of the melody. I do not speak about implying specific jazz rythms or phrasing. I speak purely of harmonic relations. I think just that fundametal things could be usually reduced down to the bottom without at least essitial quality being lost... jazz styles have other specific features, but I still think that harmony is one of the characteristics in itself. By the way - what do you mean by 3-voice triad?

[christianm77]

Your honest question got an honest answer. That's what I think.

Well, I mean an actual triad as opposed to a four voice triadic major or minor chord ... Not sure if there's an easier way of saying it....

IMO Jazz is all in the rhythm and phrasing.

I'm a bit wary of backing myself in a corner, but I kind of feel that idea of jazz harmony as a separate thing, complete in itself and separate from Western music practice kind of originated with berklee and the jazz education revolution...

Which is not to say that there is no such thing as specific jazz harmonic practice before this era. Obviously people were reading chord charts for example. Big band arranging is kind of its own thing with its own traditions separate from classical writing.

So I'm wary about being absolutist about this. It's more complicated.

Certainly things like the reality of Bill Evans harmony are quite removed from the sorts of things you see in real books.

My conception really comes from talking to pianists about this..... Most of the ones I talk to about this tend to see harmony as harmony... They are in a better position to judge TBH.

[Jonah]

Christian, I am coming from my own experience too... I am definitely as far from Berkley as could be possible))) I understand your arguments and even more - maybe 5 years ago I would support this opinion... I still think that any simple song arranged in jazz 7th chords and in classical triads in basic way (with no specific rythm and phrasing application) would have shown that jazz harmony is there as a special phenonmenon. Probably, partly mistunderstanding comes from the fact that you try to speak from historical perspective and I try to look from more or less pure aesthetical point - like here's a completed piece of music in front of me and I try to figure out what relations are there...

[Jonah]

Your honest question got an honest answer. That's what I think.Well, I mean an actual triad as opposed to a four voice triadic major or minor chord ... Not sure if there's an easier way of saying it.....

Could you give me some simples sample how you harmonize a melody with actual 3-voice triad? I mean just a few notes like g-a-g-e-d-c in C major... what would be triads under it with voicing... Thank you

[christianm77]

Not this week I'm afraid as I'm on jury service.

But I do have a couple of youtube videos on it that I posted ages ago if it answers any questions.... It's very basic stuff, but it does reflect the way that guitarists tended to harmonise their solo lines during the swing era....

You could go a lot further of course. Dick McDonough, van eps, Allan reuss and Carmen Mastren are your guys for this. It's really the most basic simple harmony imaginable...It's all in the execution...

I'll probably redo these vids at some point for my learn swing guitar channel

[christianm77]

Christian, I am coming from my own experience too... I am definitely as far from Berkley as could be possible))) I understand your arguments and even more - maybe 5 years ago I would support this opinion... I still think that any simple song arranged in jazz 7th chords and in classical triads in basic way (with no specific rythm and phrasing application) would have shown that jazz harmony is there as a special phenonmenon. Probably, partly mistunderstanding comes from the fact that you try to speak from historical perspective and I try to look from more or less pure aesthetical point - like here's a completed piece of music in front of me and I try to figure out what relations are there...

True.

In terms of pure aesthetics I don't like major and minor seventh chords very much, but that's another story... Some voicings are OK especially the wider spread ones. Most of the drop 3s are decent enough.

Most sound quite boring to me. But you kind of have to know them...

Baroque harmony and modern modal/intervallic stuff is more attractive to my ear for instance... Tastes....

Sorry to be a pedant but it's berklee with three e's. Spelling can confusing because Berkeley is a different educational institution. On the forum, the context would be understood to be berklee, but I though I should flag it up.

Let me make this succinct as I can - I do think there is such a thing as jazz harmony using 7th/extended chords. It exists. I use it. But it is not necessary to use jazz harmony to play jazz, and I see it as an extension of triadic practices and one of a number options you have stylistically.

I daresay that none here would disagree with that. I think the differences might arise from how we would teach harmony to aspiring players. But the more harmony you know the better in general.

The other difference might be that I don't see 'jazz harmony' as a complete closed system like, common practice tonality, but rather a range of different practices and rules of thumb. You can borrow from anywhere you want. But you have to have the rhythmic concept to be jazz.

As far as arranging a standard with triads or seventh chords, this is a good exercise for an aspiring jazz player.

It's not rocket science intellectually, but it will stretch your knowledge of voicings and inversions on the instrument. Look at the kurt rosenwinkel video elsewhere for example.

[christianm77]

As you can tell I am really really bored haha

[Reg]

So the actual topic is about a performance or learning application... not about how Harmony works... and for the OP... seems it's really a tool to organize performance with relationship to the Guitar neck.

Christian... my basic understanding of Bebop harmony is not just the use of extensions... which can become an organized source... but usually is just an application, but use of substitute chords and added chords creating different functional patterns which results in organized note collections. I've also gone through most of the Parker and Dizzy tunes and solos. I always see and hear much more than triads... based on a root. I'm not talking about how one choose to perform... the source of notes... which is generally from harmonic organization... at least from my point of view. I'm not saying anyone is wrong... perform however with whatever works for whom ever is performing, or if your composing... write it like you like it.

We should start a thread to teach harmony... just the basics.

[christianm77]

So the actual topic is about a performance or learning application... not about how Harmony works... and for the OP... seems it's really a tool to organize performance with relationship to the Guitar neck.

Christian... my basic understanding of Bebop harmony is not just the use of extensions... which can become an organized source... but usually is just an application, but use of substitute chords and added chords creating different functional patterns which results in organized note collections. I've also gone through most of the Parker and Dizzy tunes and solos. I always see and hear much more than triads... based on a root. I'm not talking about how one choose to perform... the source of notes... which is generally from harmonic organization... at least from my point of view. I'm not saying anyone is wrong... perform however with whatever works for whom ever is performing, or if your composing... write it like you like it.

We should start a thread to teach harmony... just the basics.

Sure if we could decide what the basics were... :-)

Bear in mind that we might analyse the same things very differently...

To illustrate this, Let me ask you a question - what is going on in your understanding on the Bb7 chord in first a of confirmation?

But obviously Parker isn't completely triads on 1 3 5. But there is an awful lot of that going on, as well as embellishments of basic triads with passing tones both diatonic and chromatic.

Btw I'm heavily influenced by Steve colemans remarkable article on bird. Have you read it?

Any way you are right to say than this is all or. Triads are a good way to navigate the neck. Next question? :-)

[grahambop]

Not this week I'm afraid as I'm on jury service.

A tip for you - get your hair cut short, shave your beard, and turn up wearing the smartest possible suit and tie you can find. And wear black leather shoes polished like a mirror. Chances are you will be rejected from the jury panel as being obviously too posh to have any empathy for the yob being tried.

This happened to my old boss who got rejected from every jury for 2 weeks and went home most days.

Of course if the case is a bent investment banker being tried for embezzlement, it might work the other way!

[henryrobinett]

I also have studied Bird and Dizzy and Bud and Red and Coltrane, Rollins. Of course they did much more than triads. But I maintain they formed the backbone. When you look at the enclosures, extensions, altered tones, they MOST OFTEN center around the triads. You can look at it differently of course but to assume those who disagree with you should go back to a basic harmony class is pretty outrageous.

[christianm77]

A tip for you - get your hair cut short, shave your beard, and turn up wearing the smartest possible suit and tie you can find. And wear black leather shoes polished like a mirror. Chances are you will be rejected from the jury panel as being obviously too posh to have any empathy for the yob being tried.

This happened to my old boss who got rejected from every jury for 2 weeks and went home most days.

Of course if the case is a bent investment banker being tried for embezzlement, it might work the other way!

That is hilarious! I think it's just luck of the draw though haha....

Not too long now though, touch wood...

[Groyniad]

I also have studied Bird and Dizzy and Bud and Red and Coltrane, Rollins. Of course they did much more than triads. But I maintain they formed the backbone. When you look at the enclosures, extensions, altered tones, they MOST OFTEN center around the triads. You can look at it differently of course but to assume those who disagree with you should go back to a basic harmony class is pretty outrageous.

if you listen to e.g. 'you don't know what love is' on saxophone colossus rollins dependence on a triadic unpacking of the melodic minor sound is immediately evident (and glorious of course). this is just a very clear example of his use of this sound.

i love c77 that you appreciate fats wallah's use of extended triads. half the things i'm playing at the moment i think of as developments of the honeysuckle rose refrain (honeysuckle licks - nice - sweet - sheer confection goodness knows)

and incidentally - i agree with C77 too that there isn't really any such thing as jazz harmony. jazz is all in the time.

and - this point got ignored so i'll say it again -

the point is to get the groovy sounds out of Dm7 - G7 - A7alt etc. - not to replace them with something else!!!

[Reg]

Yea it's all good... I say lets just say root motion is everything and the rest is personal.

yea Christian... so obviously what I call the Bb7 from any analysis is going to reflect one reference. So in the stagnant world of momentary analysis... I still hear basic I VI II V progressions as Tonic Subdominant Dominant whether it's a G or a Bb
I still hear as subdominant to the harmonic rhythm of the Form.

But there are many other possible relationships...

And yes I'm aware of most of Steve's conceptions of music in general. I think he's a little out of balance with what the music is... A little too philosophical... Yes I've read the article... it's one view. He tends to use triads as individual structural elements even in context... which is cool. You obviously know his playing, right.

I don't believe he's that interested in harmonic movement... right. Who wouldn't have fun performing in that medium... Most jazz pros have the technique to perform with free melodic and rhythmic development.... back in the late 60's and early 70's... it was going on more... than now. Nowadays... you need sponsors or $.

https://youtu.be/o-ALGKRfZN4