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So I'm reading the Herbie Hancock book and really digging it. Typical has a story about finally getting to play for a big name Donald Byrd. So of course they are going to test on the job at a gig. Then call Cherokee and the leader in his solo takes it through all twelve keys then they look at Herbie okay your solo time to playing it onstage in 12 keys.
So here is a Roy Hargrove and same thing the master puts the apprentice's feet to the fire.
Okay point made you need to work on things in 12 keys because you don't want to end up with you pants around your ankles. So while you think about it here's Raul Midon playing some Giant Steps in 12 keys. Warning around on the bandstand test can be Giant Steps in 7/4.
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12-14-2015 10:04 PM
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Aebersold has a play-along that has several tunes in all 12 keys----rhythm, "Perdido", "Autumn Leaves", "Blue Bossa" (-under the name "Solar Flair"), "Tune Up", "Four" and "Sweet Georgia Brown". I think anyone who is comfortable with all those tunes in 12 keys would probably be ready for anything (of this sort) that came his way.
It's Volume 79, called "Tune Up!"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/156...s=books&sr=1-1Last edited by MarkRhodes; 12-14-2015 at 10:24 PM. Reason: left out a word
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
The Herbie book he talks about being thrown into playing fast tempos he wasn't read for. He told what Barry Harris would tell players to do is take the two basic forms Blues and Rhythm changes and write a solo for them. Then learn the solos they wrote and work it up to speed so they'd get have a couple fast solos under their belt.
Update: I forget why Barry Harris recommend that, he said you have to learn the feel of playing fast. You just can't play fast you have to feel it.
It's a common pattern in all the old and new stories of getting guys being put in a situation for trial by fire and seeing how they come back the next night. Lesson is you're always going to find yourself in unfamiliar situations and have to accept the challenge and learn from it.Last edited by docbop; 12-15-2015 at 04:18 PM.
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no offense gents..but herbie h's feat was far more difficult..playing 12 keys piano involves all sorts fingerings..we guitar players can apply same patterns over multiple keys...no compare
i'd think the point is to play anything thrown at you..regardless of key..play don't worry
good practice is to play along with recorded music..put something on and play..no key should be more problematic than the next..its all ears
cheers
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Ireal app has a feature that will modulate after each chorus a set interval.
The rhythm section as such is truly uninspiring but I find it a useful tool for a 12 key practice moment.
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I was unaware that Herbie was influenced by BH... But then Herbie is coming out of Bud Powell, so I suppose I shouldn't be! I know Zawinul consciously modelled his early bebop style on Barry's playing. I start to understand why Barry is so sore at fusion - all those talented bop players getting sucked away haha.... Originally Posted by docbop
Anyway it's good advice. A lot of the older players would have some set piece stuff going on. It's great to have something prepped just in case the muse doesn't alight on your shoulder that night....
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Just a thought. If practicing in all 12 keys was so important, why does every instruction and every theory book only cover C? My biggest pet peeve. Just give examples in different keys once in a while, if you are so good at teaching so us different keys.
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Not sure I understand your point. Yes, you can use the same fingering and move about the neck to play different keys, but guitarists also need to be able to play in all 12 keys regardless of position. Originally Posted by neatomic
In other words, if you're in 3rd position, you need to be able to play in all 12 keys in 3rd position, and you can't do that with the same fingering.Last edited by Dana; 12-15-2015 at 09:25 AM.
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not sure that is true. For example, Ted Greene's Single String Soloing presents lines in D and Bb not C. William Leavitt method goes through a variety of keys. Originally Posted by GingerMojo
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Especially Vol's 2 & 3. They cover all keys extensively. Originally Posted by Stuart Elliott
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Looks like I should be googling some Ted Greene. Thanks.
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GingerMojo,
Here's 2 reasons:
1. Physical books have limited space and writing in 12 keys takes up 12 times the space.
2. Improvisation is not so much a reading exactly what's on the page game. The key of C is often used
because it's an easy generic point of reference to understand and transpose from.
As you can see, not every guitarist or book is adamant about transposition skills.
In my opinion, when we transpose (in a non shape based way), there is info revealed about the intervallic structure
of the music we are engaged with and fingering options on the guitar. I don't believe that everything needs to be transposed, just enough material to develop ease with the process, mental and physical fluency.
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I actually wasn't complaining about it, just pointing out a flaw in the importance of practicing in all 12 keys compared to the learning methods made available to us. I understand the importance of being able to transpose to every key, it would just help to have more available resources to kickstart us on the way. Originally Posted by bako
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For notation, you might find a notation software helpful.
Input something and the transpose it with a simple button push.
For transposition by ear, you might find software like Transcribe helpful.
You can easily transpose your mp3's or record into it and then transpose that.
or the Ireal app I mentioned above.
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The job of transposition is up to the player not the teacher or author of the book. There's no reason, for the most part, for instructional material to be in more than one key, be it C or J#. imo Originally Posted by GingerMojo
I played the sax as a second instrument for over 10 years and got pretty good but I realized that I'd never develop the transposition skills necessary to be a really good player. And the sax like the piano has a different fingering for every key which makes it hard.
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Sorta not exactly. As a pianist I was taught from a very early age to practice all my technical stuff in all 12 keys. I have 12 sets of patterns on keys compared to 5 or 7 sets on guitar - not a huge difference really. They're written into my brain. And - maybe this is because I'm a pianist first and guitarist second, but I can see the keyboard so much better than I can see the fretboard. Originally Posted by neatomic
I think what makes the fretboard a bit more complicated is, on the keyboard I have a single sequence of notes from left to right. On guitar you have 6 in parallel.
My hat's off to skilled guitarists, there's some real mental challenge there.
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Agree 100%. I've probably spent a hundred times the number of hours practicing guitar vs piano, and I STILL find that most really difficult ideas or concepts are far easier to work out and understand on the piano. Originally Posted by BigDee62
I'll never understand the other point of view. On the saxophone there are 12. On the guitar there 12×5 (or according to some 12×30). I just can't help seeing it that way. The repeating patterns DO help somewhat, but I feel that they are more than offset by a lack of any real tactile, kinesthetic connection to absolute pitch.
I don't believe that guitarists are intrinsically lazier than all other musicians. In terms of layout, the instrument truly is a beast. It has its advantages as well , but I just don't buy into notions that everything is easier on the guitar than other instruments.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 12-15-2015 at 11:54 AM.
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[QUOTE=BigDee62;594775]Sorta not exactly. As a pianist I was taught from a very early age to practice all my technical stuff in all 12 keys. I have 12 sets of patterns on keys compared to 5 or 7 sets on guitar - not a huge difference really. They're written into my brain. And - maybe this is because I'm a pianist first and guitarist second, but I can see the keyboard so much better than I can see the fretboard.
I think what makes the fretboard a bit more complicated is, on the keyboard I have a single sequence of notes from left to right. On guitar you have 6 in parallel.
My hat's off to skilled guitarists, there's some real mental challenge there.[/UOTE]
True. True. Lot's of things are harder on the guitar. Being position oriented makes certain transposition tasks easier (moveable chords and scales and patterns is an obvious no brainer) but lots of things are more of a challenge.
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That's what I was thinking! It's easy to, say, do a chromatic exercise from "Patterns For Jazz", where you play a C7 arp, then Db7, then D7 and so on up the neck (with all the roots on the A string starting at fret 3). But that has little to do with playing changing chords through the cycle in one "zone" on the neck. (Did Pat Martino coin the term "zones" for frets 1-4, then 5-8, then 9-12?) Originally Posted by Dana
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Horn and piano players need 12 different systems. We can cover with just 5, so celebrate and exploit the advantage!
OK, it's not that simple, what happens between the positions can be the real bitch, but after a while we each develop systems, we stretch to the left sometimes, and others to the right. That moment of indecision gets replaced by certain learned habits.
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[QUOTE=mrcee;594792]
Jazz 'theory', whatever that is does start with classical piano where all keys are treated equally. It's because the fingerings are going to be different in every key. Originally Posted by BigDee62
translate that to guitar and it's a PITA that you just have to deal with in jazz.
I don't know if you ever came across this but;
You've probably practiced your scales on piano with both hands. Up down up down the keyboard.
Try contrary motion. Go up a couple octaves, keep going up with the right hand but reverse direction with the left. Mix it up and buzz around all over the place. You'll have to work out the fingerings.
That in a nutshell is the 'Russian School'. It's just contrary motion.
I suppose you could add oblique motion but that would kind of stupid. I don't play piano but I'm expected to know these things. It's fun and makes scales less boring on the piano.
OK why not go for it! Do scales in parallel, contrary and oblique motion and pretend it has something to do with counterpoint.
I'll shut up now...
I still think D minor is the saddest of all keys don't you think?
I like happy keys. I like jazz but jazz messes with me sometimes. Women try to get me to play it but I can't play that stuff. I'll get funky in B minor and mess up everyone's game.
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This? Originally Posted by docbop
Herbie Hancock: Possibilities: Herbie Hancock, Lisa Dickey: 9780670014712: Amazon.com: Books
Herbie was 'classical first'. That's gone. It was one of the old schools. It was misunderstood. It was taken as gospel which it wasn't.
It's been replaced with the jazz+classical school. That's the new school.
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Originally Posted by Stevebol
Wasn't just Herbie, Monk too, but it more about the environment and teachers were neighborhood musicians and taught usually piano, violin, and other instruments for a few dollars. Most the kids started first on their own, then once proved they were serious, then get a neighborhood music teacher most taught from method books. That would lead to school bands and meeting other kids and discovering more styles of music. Same thing today, but more common is instead of the neighborhood music teacher they start learning in church and that leads to other styles, but it also develops really big ears because of that is all about listen and go figure it out and come back and listen more.
Also Herbie wasn't the typical neighborhood kid, he was real straight laced so classical fit him and he says he didn't realize that people played music without sheet music. When he finally heard kid his age play without sheet music and improving, that changed his path. Lucky for us he then started following a more traditional Jazz musicians path and on to New York. And lucky for Herbie Donald Byrd hired him and started mentoring Herbie especially about the business side of Jazz.
Reading about how the legends got started is great and they definitely had the drive and dedication and put in the hours to learn. A funny one is Dizzy and all thought school he played in band and was good, but gets his first gig and is thrown because the chart wasn't in Bb. Dizzy discovered there were keys on the bandstand. Ends up his school teacher was self taught and wrote all the arrangements for the school band, she only knew how to arrange in Bb. Miles did have formal training young, but that was he was the son of a doctor and they could afford to send him to good teachers and school. Charlie Parker I need to read more about, but think he was mainly self taught, but he could sightread anything and he study theory and arranging from what I can tell on his own. Bottom line all the Jazz musicians legends and others just had this inner drive that they had to play and would do whatever it takes to do it.
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'Classical first' had a lot to do with parental supervision. You want a guitar or piano? Then you'll play classical first. Get fairly good and then you can do whatever you want. My parents were classical but they knew jazz musicians. My guitar teacher was classical first. I only had half a dozen lessons. He told me not to play classical music. He showed me a few jazz things. Originally Posted by docbop
Hey it doesn't matter because classical first is gone. The whole point was that you had to teach yourself jazz. People from classical first didn't teach classical first.
I don't know if that makes sense. It's the best I can do.
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Originally Posted by Stevebol
I believe it was in the Terence Blanchard youtube I put up last night he says same thing in the end you have to learn Jazz on your own. There are lots of schools today and they have formalized Jazz education, because that is what school have to do to any subject to charge money to teach it. Also with exception of NYC the mentor-ship of going on the road and playing all night and getting some advice from the leader is gone. There aren't that many places to play and so many bands are pickup bands. Now you do hear the about "crews" of musicians coming together in music school and they do their best to keep gigging, jamming, and learning together after school.
I've said it many time in music school the curriculum doesn't teach much, the real teacher is hanging and playing in open counseling with the good teachers or big name teachers. Then playing and jamming as much as possible, seeing if you can form a "crew" to grow with. Last the being able to live in music 24/7 for a year or more that is the benefit of music school. So the school doesn't teach you, you learn by what questions you ask from getting to play and live music.
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