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  1. #101
    Yes Jazzy Beatle, but Volume 1 is going to take some time..unless you don't work

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102
    Jazzy Beatle did you have all 9 modules delivered already?

  4. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Jazzy Beatle did you have all 9 modules delivered already?
    Yes, all except module 9 which is currently in production and will not be available until the end of November.

  5. #104
    How does it look?

  6. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I'm very curious to find out, as I go further in this course, how he treats 2nds, 4ths and 6ths (passing tones ) vs 9ths, 11ths and 13ths (chord tone extensions subject to chromatic and neighbor embellishment in the same manner as chord tones ), as far as their respective places on the guitar are concerned. Assuming we have sixth and fifth string roots, I presume the 2nds, 4ths and 6ths on the 6th, 5th and 4th strings Will be considered like passing tones, while the 9ths. 11th and 13 upper extensions on the 3rd , 2nd and 1st strings Will be treated as Chord tones subject to embellishment
    The beginning of Lesson 4 in my book has a section titled "should I call it an upper extension or approach tone.

    Set of principles more to do with things like note duration and melodic context than with range.

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Yes Jazzy Beatle, but Volume 1 is going to take some time..unless you don't work
    I went Through some of the lessons in the later units. I find out that I actually knew what he was talking about. The concepts and stuff are not not very hard.

    The real value of this seems to be the vast reservoir of etudes and exercises-which seem to a very exhaustive and extensive survey on a limited but funfsmental concept -how to create lines from dominant 7th harmony and to do this efficienctly, in a "best practice" sort of way, on the fingerboard.
    The clear goal of the exercises is to get all that under your fingers and in your ears, and internalize it to the greatest extent possible so you can use fragments or variations of the same in a spontaneous context without thinking.

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    The beginning of Lesson 4 in my book has a section titled "should I call it an upper extension or approach tone.

    Set of principles more to do with things like note duration and melodic context than with range.
    Yes I mentioned that above, after the fact.

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I went Through some of the lessons in the later units. I find out that I actually knew what he was talking about. The concepts and stuff are not not very hard.

    The real value of this seems to be the vast reservoir of etudes and exercises-which seem to a very exhaustive and extensive survey on a limited but funfsmental concept -how to create lines from dominant 7th harmony and to do this efficiently, in a "best practice" sort of way, on the fingerboard.
    I'm not sure I understand the term "dominant 7th harmony." We're not turning Pat Martino's "convert to minor" into "convert to dominant 7th", are we? ;o)

  10. #109
    He does introduce II V later on in the course as well as Major Arpeggios
    Ken

  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I'm not sure I understand the term "dominant 7th harmony." We're not turning Pat Martino's "convert to minor" into "convert to dominant 7th", are we? ;o)

    Well, let's not make it more complicated than it actually is We're talking about Blues. This course is a very simple one in terms of its fundamental goal. It seems it's is only dealing with the most fundamental aspect of bebop: how to play blues in the bebop way . As Bird said to BB, " you know, BB, we're the same, it's all from the blues ". Thus, concretely:

    How to play over a I7-IV7-V7 using miixo patterns, the super locrian (i.e., The 7th mode of melodic minor, i.e., the good old altered scale, which is used over altered dominant seventh chords ), and it looks like he's got the Dorian patterns in there for the invitwble ii chords

    Looks like the final chapter, which is still in development, is how to play Bird blues . Which we know as Charlie Parker's chord substitution system for the conventional 12 bar blues.

    So, the material doesn't seem that complex, as I said even some of the latter stuff I already knew . But what I also know is that I need to significantly improve my blues playing. No blues, no Jass.

    Again, the real value of this course stems from the tone of exercises and études . I firmly believe that really internalizing them will improve significantly my understanding and ability to play blues .

  12. #111
    Keep us posted Navdeep
    Btw how long have you been studying jazz?
    Ken

  13. #112
    Navdeep,

    Have you tried any of the Rhythm Templates, I think that's a pretty cool idea he has there.
    Ken

  14. #113

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    Sounds like this course can accomplish what I am looking for - and that is saving me from myself and keeping me from skipping ahead by not giving me plenty of examples to illustrate each idea/concept. I am going to give it a try later on in the year when I can create some time.

  15. #114

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    FYI Sheryl Bailey just posted a new class on studying 10 bebop etudes-from Body and Soul to RC to modal playing

    20 bucks

    https://truefire.com/essentials-guit...op-etudes/c947

  16. #115
    I used to take lessons directly from her at Truefire.
    Ken

  17. #116
    BTW those etudes were inspired by me when I was taking lessons from her

  18. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Yay, another attempt to make jazz a college course.
    Ha ha. I suppose you could overdo anything. This is good solid material. I think there's a place for some analysis and learning basic jazz patterns etc. that's mostly what this is. targeting, chromatics etc. honestly, has the vibe of a Mr. B type thing with emphasis on arpeggios and chord tones over scales , even from the very start. :-)

    there's a lot of good material in here that I don't see overlapping with most other guitar books I've seen. I've seen them in a lot of NON-guitar books , but this one just deals with little more of the specifics of instrument.

    The basic book version I have is $50.00 and runs 325 pages. I think it's easily worth that, if only for the blues targeting études and targeting patterns exercises.

  19. #118
    He also focuses on Rhythm and Syncopation in every Module

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    FYI Sheryl Bailey just posted a new class on studying 10 bebop etudes-from Body and Soul to RC to modal playing
    I bought that course and have spent a few minutes looking it over. I'm not yet persuaded that these are all 'bebop' etudes per se (like playing modally in fourths over Little Sunflower), or the Body & Soul chord melody, though they may have some very useful stuff in them. I will probably pick a gem out here and there and work on it but I learn best when there is a coordinated, graduated process that starts at "A" and is designed inevitably, if you stick with it, to get you to "J" (I don't think any one course will get you to "Z"). For that reason, I will probably jump on board with Richie's new course, as it seems so comprehensive. And I kind of like the idea of waiting a month for the next installment to open up, so I'm not tempted to say, "Oh, I already know that; let me jump ahead to something new." It will force me to dig deeper into what I think I already know (but, in truth, could be doing a heckuva lot more with). In fact, I might get started tonight.

    Is this a good opportunity for an online study group here at the Forum?

  21. #120
    Yes I agree Jasaco

  22. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    I bought that course and have spent a few minutes looking it over. I'm not yet persuaded that these are all 'bebop' etudes per se (like playing modally in fourths over Little Sunflower), or the Body & Soul chord melody, though they may have some very useful stuff in them. I will probably pick a gem out here and there and work on it but I learn best when there is a coordinated, graduated process that starts at "A" and is designed inevitably, if you stick with it, to get you to "J" (I don't think any one course will get you to "Z"). For that reason, I will probably jump on board with Richie's new course, as it seems so comprehensive. And I kind of like the idea of waiting a month for the next installment to open up, so I'm not tempted to say, "Oh, I already know that; let me jump ahead to something new." It will force me to dig deeper into what I think I already know (but, in truth, could be doing a heckuva lot more with). In fact, I might get started tonight.

    Is this a good opportunity for an online study group here at the Forum?
    I imagine you will have no problem with the first unit. Unit two is huge and that's where everything really needs to come together In terms of practicing the studies and exercises .
    I've replaced my usual daily scale and arpeggio practice warm-up with the arpeggio studies on page 31 of the workbook . I'm trying to practice them with all three chords and fingerings, but I'm also improvising using them within the practice format. Because, as he says, what we wind up playing in a live situation is merely fragments or variations of fragments of what we've studied extensively . That's not the whole scale, using part of the scale, etc. . I think being able to use these studies seamlessly, as part of almost being second nature , will really help.
    I've discovered, well I already kind of knew it, that my descending arpeggios are much weaker than my ASC arpeggios.

  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Yes I agree Jasaco
    Which part(s) do you agree with?

  24. #123
    Yes this is the strongest I've ever been playing Arpeggios from highest to lowest and I also can play the the Arpeggios using the cycle of 5ths from the highest note of all 7 fingerings without even thinking. Of course I've been doing this since I joined on 8/17/15
    Ken

  25. #124
    That having the modules open up monthly is a great idea...

  26. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I imagine you will have no problem with the first unit. Unit two is huge and that's where everything really needs to come together In terms of practicing the studies and exercises .
    I've replaced my usual daily scale and arpeggio practice warm-up with the arpeggio studies on page 31 of the workbook . I'm trying to practice them with all three chords and fingerings, but I'm also improvising using them within the practice format. Because, as he says, what we wind up playing in a live situation is merely fragments or variations of fragments of what we've studied extensively . That's not the whole scale, using part of the scale, etc. . I think being able to use these studies seamlessly, as part of almost being second nature , will really help.
    I've discovered, well I already kind of knew it, that my descending arpeggios are much weaker than my ASC arpeggios.


    Curious is the course has fingerings for arpeggios from lowest available note on the neck to the highest available note on the neck? I hear instructors talk about it, but always leave fingering up to the player. Like you my descending arp's are weaker.

  27. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    Curious is the course has fingerings for arpeggios from lowest available note on the neck to the highest available note on the neck? I hear instructors talk about it, but always leave fingering up to the player. Like you my descending arp's are weaker.
    yes, exactly. the exercises are meant to be 2 octave plus arpeggios, 6th to 1st and or 1st to 6th string. Lowest note possible on 6th to highest note possible on 1st.

    Youll also notice that Sheryl B has her "microscopic bebop" line-scale set up in a descending manner, so as to emphasize the chromatic, stepwise movement from R to M6.

  28. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    Well, let's not make it more complicated than it actually is We're talking about Blues. This course is a very simple one in terms of its fundamental goal. It seems it's is only dealing with the most fundamental aspect of bebop: how to play blues in the bebop way . As Bird said to BB, " you know, BB, we're the same, it's all from the blues ". ....
    Again, the real value of this course stems from the tone of exercises and études . I firmly believe that really internalizing them will improve significantly my understanding and ability to play blues .
    Thanks for clearing that up. As for the blues, that's my home turf. (I think George Benson said that Jack McDuff taught him how to put some blues in everything.) One reason I love Herb Ellis so much is that he has a great bluesy streak.

  29. #128

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    I feel one of the critical things that differentiate a jazz blues from a blues blues is to think of 3 chords instead of merely 1, and not just in the turnaround.

    Thus a C blues, instead of a C7, we can think of, instead--
    Abm7-Db7-C7

    tritone sub of the secondary dominant, preceded by its ii chord.

    gives a lot more options of material to play.

  30. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I feel one of the critical things that differentiate a jazz blues from a blues blues is to think of 3 chords instead of merely 1, and not just in the turnaround.

    Thus a C blues, instead of a C7, we can think of, instead--
    Abm7-Db7-C7

    tritone sub of the secondary dominant, preceded by its ii chord.

    gives a lot more options of material to play.
    Spoiler alert! That is the main thrust of Sheryl's take on the blues in her new course...

  31. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    Spoiler alert! That is the main thrust of Sheryl's take on the blues in her new course...
    Well she didn't invent it "it" being the tritone sub of the secondary dominant, preceded by its own ii chord

    But, here's the critical thing -if you play a play a C7 arpeggio in the 8th position (i.e., starting with the 1st finger ), the sub ii-V fits seamlessly without changing position, fingering wise-- the Abm7 can start with finger 4 AND the Db7 can start with finger 2.

    I have no idea If the author presents this connection in this course, but I was just messing with some ii-V subs with his proscribed fingering. And it works like a charm.

  32. #131

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    Cool tip. I'll check it out when next with my guitar.

  33. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I feel one of the critical things that differentiate a jazz blues from a blues blues is to think of 3 chords instead of merely 1, and not just in the turnaround.

    Thus a C blues, instead of a C7, we can think of, instead--
    Abm7-Db7-C7

    tritone sub of the secondary dominant, preceded by its ii chord.

    gives a lot more options of material to play.
    Well, I always think of them as at least three chords. Granted, sometimes one can play a minor pentatonic over the whole thing----indeed, many a great jazz player has played the same riff over all the chords (-and some classic blues heads work that way, such as Duke's "C-Jam Blues" and Sonny Rollins' "Sonnymoon for Two")---but I tend to think of them as three chords, sometimes more. You can also substitute diminished chords / runs for 7th chords.

  34. #133

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    I’ve just started the course and watched the Module 1 videos right through the instruction to work on Mixo Fingering Patterns 1, 4, & 5. Ok, so I’ve started on that, getting them under my fingers. But I don’t see any instruction as to what next to do with them (practice them going around the horn in 4ths, or transition from pattern 1 to 4 to 5, or just keep drilling them as static exercises and not use them yet at all?)
    So, I figured maybe the next video would give such direction and build upon this, but I see that the next lesson starts a whole new subject of voice leading, making no mention of using these fingering patterns, nor of going on to tackle 3 more fingering patterns. It just seems that the whole subject has been dropped. I’m feeling disoriented as to what path I’m on here… Maybe one of you who's further along can enlighten me?

    Thanks.

  35. #134
    You need to learn the scale degrees for the 3 patterns as well as arpeggios inside and out. I also worked on all 7 fingerings. Also cycle of 5th with the 7 patterns in scale form and arpeggios. Don't forget the rhythm lab and ear training. Watch last video in the nutshell. Module2 is going to have double the amount, module is just a primer.
    Ken

  36. #135

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    Thanks, 007. I'm trying to be very methodical about this and not run ahead too fast. So, yes, I'll continue working on internalizing the scale degrees and arps. Now, when you say you've worked on all 7 fingerings and doing the cycle of 5th with them, does that come up in module 2? Am I correct that there is no more to be done with patterns 1,4&5 during module 1? We just move on to other subjects like voice leading? That seems to just appear out of the blue; no transition saying why he's going into that next... just, boom!

    And I haven't forgotten the rhythm lab & ear training; I just haven't yet gotten to them since I'm trying to do this in precise sequence but I'm not really seeing yet how this hangs together...

  37. #136

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    He presents a broad survey of music theory initially. The chord studies are all just drop two and drop three voicings which he presents a small part of. Thankfully, I spent a long time on this, so it's not new to me.

    The important thing for the exercises are the scale fingerings and arpeggios . The overarching issue is: how well do you know the neck? The fingerings and arpeggios seem to be very important in unit 2 and beyond. For me, the fingerings are not that complicated. You're either beginning the scales on the 5th or 6th string with either the first second or fourth finger. You never start with your third finger. I learned that in my private lessons starting out, and my teacher had me go through the Chuck Wayne scale book. Scales starting on the fourth string can only begin with the first finger. A side benefit of this concept is that they help you think of and play either the chord , arpeggio, or scale more easily, and all are interchangeable and available with minimal movement, if you think about it. For example: starting the G scale on The fourth string with the first finger also means you can easily play a G major seventh or G7 chord using the first four strings ( it's the Drop 2 1573 voice dispersion ). You can easily also play the arpeggio when you start your scale with the first finger there -1357.

    That's just an added benefit. Although I think it's an important one. But you really have to get the fingerings down and the arpeggios down. Like I said, I spent a lot of time on this when I was taking lessons, and nobody is reinventing the wheel here. It's just a variation of CAGED. I'm sure the Chuck Wayne didn't invent this either ..

  38. #137
    Also, the voice leading is APPLICATION of the arps. Not just something new out of nowhere or abstract theoretical concept. There are exercises and examples to play, and it uses the arp fingerings already introduced.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 11-11-2015 at 09:09 AM.

  39. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Also, voice leading is APPLICATION of arps. Not just something new or theoretical concept.
    It would be helpful if he would have described that way, to provide some kind of continuity from the prior exercises.

  40. #139
    He does Jasaco, again Module 1 is just a primer ...the real work begins in Module 2...you won't be disappointed...I don't think...lol

  41. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    It would be helpful if he would have described that way, to provide some kind of continuity from the prior exercises.
    The key concept he should've tied in explicitly is, when you are practicing the arpeggios in two plus octaves using all the strings, it will be much easier transition to a different chord finding a common tone or one that is a semi tone or whole step away (i.e., voice leading ). It seems very clear that nobody begins again with the root note when changing chords- you move to the nearest common tone or closest half step to stop or Whole step.

    Implicitly, however, really getting the arpeggios down in two octaves plus across all six strings, from the lowest possible note to the highest possible note, will greatly facilitate finding the nearest common tone or halfstep or whole step when transitioning chords.

  42. #141
    He also wants you to focus on playing the scales and Arpeggios from the highest to the lowest string as opposed to the way most people learn scales and Arps from lowest to highest...Again watch the video called in the Nutshell and he gives you what concepts were shown in that module. It will be clearer as you get into the next module, I had a lot of questions in the beginning which I posted in the forum he has set up and he answered them directly. So if you have questions go to forum and post them.
    Ken

  43. #142

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    007, yes, thanks, I did also post my questions there, but that seems to be a slow-moving forum and I knew I'd get a faster response from you guys, which I did! Thanks. But I'll keep checking over there to see if he or others respond.

  44. #143
    Hi Jasaco,


    Just remember the Module 2 is a lot of work.... I don't know how much time you have to practice but I'm already behind.
    I Joined 8/13/15 and my 4th Module is opening Friday. But I'm still working on Modules 2 and 3. As Richie states most people won't be able to complete this in a year. I work M-F and don't get home til 6 so I try and do 2 hours a night, sometimes 3 hours and it's still not enough...lol
    Ken

  45. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    ... I work M-F and don't get home til 6 so I try and do 2 hours a night, sometimes 3 hours and it's still not enough
    I will be in the same boat but, anyway, as long as I'm moving forward, if it takes longer, it takes longer.

    One thing I noticed about his videos is that, except for when he is actually playing to demonstrate something, his videos are him speaking verbatim what is written on the PDFs. Because he speaks pretty slowly for my taste, I might just resort to reading the PDFs and getting to the playing/practicing part a little sooner...

  46. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    I will be in the same boat but, anyway, as long as I'm moving forward, if it takes longer, it takes longer.

    One thing I noticed about his videos is that, except for when he is actually playing to demonstrate something, his videos are him speaking verbatim what is written on the PDFs. Because he speaks pretty slowly for my taste, I might just resort to reading the PDFs and getting to the playing/practicing part a little sooner...

    Did you say you had all the modules delivered already?
    Yes he's reading from a teleprompter for sure...But I like that this program is so well done, nothing left to chance. He even demonstrates each Bebop Calisthenic exercise.
    Ken

  47. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Did you say you had all the modules delivered already?
    No, I'm going to receive them monthly to help make sure I stay focused and don't run with scissors...

  48. #147

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    It seems to me that to truly have these scale and arpeggio patterns "under the fingers" you'd want to be able to do the following instantaneously:

    1) Move your hand to the proper position for any key for each of patterns 1, 4, and 5

    2) Start playing each pattern, both up and down, from an arbitrary scale or arpeggio degree.

    3) Then, when playing tunes, relating each of the patterns to each other so that, for example, in a basic blues, your hand knows it's in position for pattern 1 on the I7 chord, and that the IV7 is pattern 4 in the same position.

    It's one thing to develop the muscle memory for a new fingering shape without respect to the movement of the harmony. For moderately experienced players, this probably happens quickly—minutes perhaps. However, for me, what also comes rather quickly is the temptation to start playing the pattern as a mindless string of eighth notes without respect to the current interval that's being played.

    So I guess a tedious, but necessary, exercise on the path to making actual music might be to pick a new cycle every time—descending fourths, descending or ascending chromatic, major seconds, etc.—and start out with just one pattern, playing quarter notes at a tempo slow enough so you can do the folllowing:

    1) Say the key
    2) Say the interval

    I imagine that, over time, if you could stand the tedium, you could embed this pretty firmly in your memory. Since I also want to be making actual music, I'll have to intersperse these sorts of drills with, you know, tunes!

    Any thoughts? Am I taking it too far for module 1?

  49. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    No, I'm going to receive them monthly to help make sure I stay focused and don't run with scissors...

    I agree, like I said My 4th module will open up Friday. One of the main aspects that's being over looked is all the exercises he has on Rhythm....which is so key when soloing to create interest.

  50. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    Any thoughts? Am I taking it too far for module 1?
    I don't think you're taking it too far at all. In fact, this is exactly what I was expecting Mr. Zellon to suggest in his course, i.e., how to work with these patterns and practice them in context harmonically. I was really surprised to see that, right after showing us how to play patterns 1,4&5, that he never gave any suggestions like this but instead went on to talk about voice leading, without any segue between the two subjects. Maybe I'm expecting too much, and perhaps all this gets pulled together starting in Module 2, as some have suggested above, but given all the rave reviews about how meticulous he is with this course, this struck me as a rather glaring omission... Of course, I fully expect to hang with it and get a lot out of it nevertheless.

  51. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    I don't think you're taking it too far at all. In fact, this is exactly what I was expecting Mr. Zellon to suggest in his course, i.e., how to work with these patterns and practice them in context harmonically. I was really surprised to see that, right after showing us how to play patterns 1,4&5, that he never gave any suggestions like this but instead went on to talk about voice leading, without any segue between the two subjects. Maybe I'm expecting too much, and perhaps all this gets pulled together starting in Module 2, as some have suggested above, but given all the rave reviews about how meticulous he is with this course, this struck me as a rather glaring omission... Of course, I fully expect to hang with it and get a lot out of it nevertheless.

    I had the same question and yes Module 2 with have Bebop calisthenics as well as 5 Etudes...and Rhythm lab, Rhythm Cells , Several Rhythm templates to work on more Ear training, Candy Bars which are phrases you can learn. Double the amount of info in Module 2.
    Ken