The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #401

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    I first learned this 12 keys in one position (5 frets) approach in 1970 from Ted Dunbar.
    Every 5 frets contains 2 and 1/3 octaves of the chromatic scale + one unison.
    In 5 frets, a few keys are a bit awkward but not impossible. Toggling between 2 adjacent 5 fret positions
    (also known as 6 frets) resolves this issue.

    Attached is a doc I've posted here several times illustrating 12 major scales in one position.

    My approach is very similar to Dunbar's chart except I reuse the top line of fingerings. I'll use his keys name to indicate which finger pattern I use in what order. I don't always start at same place but this is a common starting place for me. Again I'm using the key names form Dunbar's chart to ID the finger patterns.

    G, C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, then I slide up one fret and use the top patterns again F, Bb, Eb, Ab Db.

    Occasionally I will do it as on the Dunbar chart instead of where I shifted so I have an alternate way to do it.
    Last edited by docbop; 12-11-2015 at 01:32 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #402

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    My approach is very similar to Dunbar's chart expect I reuse the top line of fingerings.
    Not Ted's chart. Just an excel doc I created to illustrate this idea for the forum.

    He was very philosophical and would say things like "The whole universe is contained within 5 frets".
    Universe in this instance = chromatic scale. He would then proceed to play a standard within 5 frets
    one or two chorus in each key in a musical way.

    Working out scales, arpeggios and melodies 12 keys in one position was my way to begin to access this skill set.

  4. #403

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    I've been reading some posts here and there in this thread, and I have two questions about the course :

    -What option (silver, gold, platinum) must one take in order to have the 9 modules that unlock with time ? I did not find that information on the site.

    -To those that are working with this method : what are the things that stand out, the things that really makes it worth it for you ?

  5. #404

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nabil B
    I've been reading some posts here and there in this thread, and I have two questions about the course :

    -What option (silver, gold, platinum) must one take in order to have the 9 modules that unlock with time ? I did not find that information on the site.

    -To those that are working with this method : what are the things that stand out, the things that really makes it worth it for you ?
    The normal way is for the moudles to open a month at a time. There is an option, for advanced students, to have access to all of them at once. The catch is that you can't get them all at once and THEN say, "This isn't what I wanted" and get a refund. I'm going the month-at-a-time route because I think that otherwise, I'd rush through the material rather than take my time.

    What makes it worth it to me----and keep in mind I'm just a couple weeks in and thus still in the first Module----is the seven fingerings and how they run vertically through the cycle. I would like to hear answers to this same question from those who have been at this for several months already.

  6. #405

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako

    Truthfully, I never thought in terms of counting shapes. I focused more on the intervals, the notes and the sounds.
    These details lead to shapes for which the hands became acclimated to after logging some time.



    The ability to see all 12 keys within any 5 frets which is a helpful companion awareness to perceiving each single key throughout the entire fingerboard.
    I get that. I never thought in terms of the number of shapes I used. Richie's system is highly organized and the different fingerings have number names, 1 through 7. 1, 4, and 7 play the root with one finger, 2 and 5 with another, and 3 and 6 with another. It sounds needlessly complicated but it makes things incredibly simple as soon as you get used to it. The patterns repeat in a definite way. (There is a vertical way---which is what we're talking about here, where one can play in 12 keys in a five fret range---and the horizontal way, along the neck, which is a different pattern sequence but it is a simple repeating pattern that, once you get the hang of it, you don't have to think about at all.)

    As you make clear, the 'getting the hang of it' takes some time, "time on the instrument" as Pierre likes to say. Richie didn't invent this but he's the one who is teaching it to me and I'm grateful to him as you are to Ted Dunbar.
    ;O)

  7. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Nabil B
    I've been reading some posts here and there in this thread, and I have two questions about the course :

    -What option (silver, gold, platinum) must one take in order to have the 9 modules that unlock with time ? I did not find that information on the site.

    -To those that are working with this method : what are the things that stand out, the things that really makes it worth it for you ?
    There is a segment of the jazz ED world (like Bert Ligon) which teaches beginners to target chord tones vs heavier scale focus of others. Although this is a pretty simple approach for most instrumentalists, it presents "problems" to be solved for the guitarist to merely get off the ground with them.

    This is the only method I've seen which attempts to systematically work through these on guitar this thoroughly.

    Probably well worth the price of admission, if only as a reference for practicing patterns, developing your own etudes, building a philosophy for working on fretboard knowledge, and practicing ideas cyclically.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 12-11-2015 at 11:38 AM.

  8. #407
    Also, I don't think you can really "mess up" with ordering the "wrong" level or something. Even if you go with the silver option, you can upgrade later. I probably will upgrade to gold in the next month or so. I've got the silver edition , and from what I've seen, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend at least the Gold option to anyone. It's solid material, and I don't think there are many who would fail to get SOMETHING out of at least a portion of it.

  9. #408

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    There is a segment of the jazz ED world (like Bert Ligon) which teaches beginners to target chord tones vs heavier scale focus of others. Although this is a pretty simple approach for most instrumentalists, it presents "problems" to be solved for the guitarist to merely get off the ground with them.

    This is the only method I've seen which attempts to systematically work through these on guitar this thoroughly.

    Probably well worth the price of admission, if only as a reference for practicing patterns, developing your own etudes, building a philosophy for working on fretboard knowledge, and practicing ideas cyclically.

    Matt, I'm with you here. This is important. In the 2nd "orientation video" at Richie's site, he mentions people he has studied with and things that he learned from them. His early background was in classical music, not jazz. He sees much of what he is doing as applying to guitar things that other instrumentalists tend to learn (but guitarists tend NOT to learn).

  10. #409

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    His early background was in classical music, not jazz. He sees much of what he is doing as applying to guitar things that other instrumentalists tend to learn (but guitarists tend NOT to learn).

    I can see that from looking at the Richie's book and it's part of reason I'm checking out horn and piano player materials mainly. I talk to my guitar teacher about it and same response it's really good to checkout materials from other instrument point of view. My teacher and I we talk about guitar students in general and how they tend to think a scale is the answer to all questions. Then Mark I think it was you who posted a video of Frank Vignola & Bucky Pizzarelli a year or two ago and after they play they say everything you ever need to learn you learn by learn tunes and melodies all the answers are in tunes.

    At a point studying become about music not the instrument and I think Richie is trying to gently herd guitarists that direction.

  11. #410

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    At a point studying become about music not the instrument and I think Richie is trying to gently herd guitarists that direction.
    I completely agree : most of the time when I'm transcribing it's a trumpet or sax solo. But it's the guitar specific things that get in our way : the dreaded fretboard organization. We're always looking for a way to really master this, buying books and videos... which is funny because when you think about it, all the great jazz guitarists found something that worked for them, without having access to the plethora of information that we have today. Maybe we're overcomplicating things ?

    On another note, thanks to the members that gave me some info on the course. I'm still not sure if I want to join, because I already have several books and videos that I didn't really use. I get a little something here and there, and I gathered a huge amount of information over the years, so now I feel that the only thing left to do is to get to work, and regularly set new goals to keep progressing.

  12. #411
    destinytot Guest
    I'm so looking forward to joining in this (after 27th for me). I got good vibes from Richie as a teacher. (I thought twice about adding this, but I can hardly believe the price. I'm really going to make the most of the structure and the forum.)
    Last edited by destinytot; 12-11-2015 at 03:18 PM.

  13. #412
    The best thing about Richie's course is it moves in a logical order, each module build on the previous...As stated the 1st module is nothing, after that there's a tremendous amount of material to learn and absorb....As i stated earlier, I'm falling way behind...lol
    Ken

  14. #413

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    I can see that from looking at the Richie's book and it's part of reason I'm checking out horn and piano player materials mainly. I talk to my guitar teacher about it and same response it's really good to checkout materials from other instrument point of view. My teacher and I we talk about guitar students in general and how they tend to think a scale is the answer to all questions. Then Mark I think it was you who posted a video of Frank Vignola & Bucky Pizzarelli a year or two ago and after they play they say everything you ever need to learn you learn by learn tunes and melodies all the answers are in tunes.

    At a point studying become about music not the instrument and I think Richie is trying to gently herd guitarists that direction.

    Yes, Doc, that was me, and here's the video: Frank and Bucky doing "Fly Me To The Moon" at a workshop in Toronto, then talking a bit after. Frank: "There's all the turnarounds you need to know it that one song!"




    One thing that makes the guitar complicated is that you can finger things so many different ways---it helps to have what Reg calls a "default", something you can do without thinking about it.

    Richie's approach works for any instrument. He studied under Edgar Valcarcel (-Richie is from Peru), who in turn studied under Nadia Boulanger in Paris (-she also taught George Gershwin and Igor Stravinsky composition). Valcarcel made him write, in four clefs, counterpoint for a given melody and he would have a half-hour to do it (and no access to an instrument). He graduated from Berklee. Charlie Benacos was one of his mentors and guitarist Dennis Sandole influenced his approach too. He places a great emphasis on ear training and written exercises. Yet he knows that guitarists are the least-literate of all musicians! (As a rule.) He teaches what he calls "intervallic script".

    Two other influences on his teaching are Joseph Schillinger (-Berklee was originally called "The Schillinger House") and Slonimsky's "Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns." (Richie says Dennis Sandole introduced this book to John Coltrane.)

  15. #414
    Bebop cal #3 Simple enclosure to 3 and b7




    Ken

  16. #415

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Bebop cal #3 Simple enclosure to 3 and b7
    Thanks for the demonstration. I'm looking forward to getting there.
    Last edited by MarkRhodes; 12-11-2015 at 09:11 PM.

  17. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Thanks for the demonstration. I'm looking forward to getting there.
    yw, I forgot to mention that it was played over the 1,4 and 5 chords

  18. #417
    It was played with out the chromatic approaches as well

  19. #418

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    I am on day 2 or 3 of the module 2 bebop calisthenics. My goal is to get one or two exercises under my fingers each day at a very slow tempo, then spend some time getting them up to more practical speeds. I really thought I had the 1, 4, and 5 fingerings down--and I do in strictly the mechanical sense--but I find myself stuttering when it comes time to isolate the 3 and 7 and the 1 and 5. Singing the intervals, keeping the foot tapping, and playing with swing feel. Ha!

  20. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    I am on day 2 or 3 of the module 2 bebop calisthenics. My goal is to get one or two exercises under my fingers each day at a very slow tempo, then spend some time getting them up to more practical speeds. I really thought I had the 1, 4, and 5 fingerings down--and I do in strictly the mechanical sense--but I find myself stuttering when it comes time to isolate the 3 and 7 and the 1 and 5. Singing the intervals, keeping the foot tapping, and playing with swing feel. Ha!

    yes bebop cal's take a while to get, plus there are a lot of them if include # 1, 2and 3...I'm trying to use them over BAIB while incorporating some of the lines and syncopation for the Etudes.
    Ken

  21. #420
    In module 3 they get more complex

  22. #421

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    Is everyone practicing all the time now? Been quiet here lately....

    I'm eager for Module 2 to open.

    If anyone is interested, I posted a link ((in the "Everything Else" forum) to Richie Zellon's free e-book ("20th Century Jazz Guitar") which contains Richie's transcriptions (including tab) of 2-3 licks by each of the jazz heavyweights we all know of. If you don't already have it, it's a free download...

  23. #422

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    Im still plowing away on Module 2. Have to balance my time between Richie's stuff and tunes, so I see myself quickly lagging behind the monthly schedule.

  24. #423

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    Speaking of tunes...anything you learned in Modules 1 or 2 worked its way into your actual playing yet?

  25. #424

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Is everyone practicing all the time now? Been quiet here lately....

    I'm eager for Module 2 to open.

    If anyone is interested, I posted a link ((in the "Everything Else" forum) to Richie Zellon's free e-book ("20th Century Jazz Guitar") which contains Richie's transcriptions (including tab) of 2-3 licks by each of the jazz heavyweights we all know of. If you don't already have it, it's a free download...
    Lately, I've just been working on his patterns 1, 4 and 7, to interchange between them in the sort of seamless way hopefully. Basically, trying to create my own bebop calisthenics.

    I'm not qualified to be a teacher at all of course. But I feel like I have been lucky to have studied with the best, So I have some knowledge on what to expect from a good teacher. and Richie seems to be every bit as meticulous. When you start module two, Pay particular attention with how he wants to practice the lines. Practice it in that order: internalize the fingerings, then only play the chord tones that will be modded (eg, 3 and b7) , then finally only play the modifications to the chord tones(eg, lower neighbor to 3 and b7, i.e., 3-2-3 and b7-6-7), then put it all together and play the whole enchilada, highest note to lowest note, or vice versa. It's very clear that the more attention you give this, with the repetition it requires---repetition in that meticulous order he proscribed---it will really help internalize the fingerboard.

    But mainly, I'm gonna start working on some tunes with an excellent singer. Seven standards. Really looking forward to that. I hope, at some point, I will have internalized some of the material that I can use on a general basis. That's the plan, isn't it always? To practice things 1 million times so eventually you don't have to think about Them.

  26. #425

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Is everyone practicing all the time now? Been quiet here lately....

    I'm eager for Module 2 to open.

    If anyone is interested, I posted a link ((in the "Everything Else" forum) to Richie Zellon's free e-book ("20th Century Jazz Guitar") which contains Richie's transcriptions (including tab) of 2-3 licks by each of the jazz heavyweights we all know of. If you don't already have it, it's a free download...
    My answer to your question is that I am working his material in with my technical studies. My time is limited and my desire for speed and technical proficiency is just as strong as my desire to be able to freely improvise.

    I have been concentrating on his Module 1 Blues studies with a goal of at least being able to improvise over Blues progressions and do it well.

    My New Years resolution was to be able to know what each note I am playing next and where I am trying to go. Richie's studies are helping me do this. If I can achieve this goal, I will have gotten my money's worth, even if I have to forego the later sections until a later date.

    So far so good.