The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Ah... that's important difference, Christian!

    I see jazz thinking behind it)))

    Baroque player would never treat arpeggio as a line...
    for them it was four-voiced harmony and f-g# (key a-moll) are not treated (and not played) as cosequent sounds in line .. they are different voices moving parallel...

    Even in fast cadential passages or toccatas they are to be treated as chords, harmony - not lines...

    that is there's still only one melody note in this arpeggio
    I see. That makes sense. So you would not play an outright dim7 arpeggio in the sense of having lines in counterpoint with each other. I can't recall if I noticed any exceptions in the Bach and Handel I've sung, but that would seem about right. While Bach is happy to write some tough to sing intervals in his parts, I doubt I've ever sung an outright dim7 in his music. Will check.

    The piece I was thinking of was a Prelude, which is chordal anyway.

    So what you are saying is that Arpeggio here = broken chord, not a constituent part of the melody. (Obviously two consecutive leaps of a 3rd or a 3rd and a 4th etc, would give you a triad, but that's not necessarily the thinking that's gone on with it.)

    I'm thinking of learning to improvise species counterpoint, I think that would be a great thing to be able to do. I'd need to listen back and transcribe what I'd played to spot the mistakes though haha!

    EDIT Weirdly (or not so weirdly) this reminds me of the separation of the harmonic and melodic aspects of the Barry Harris theory. For example, we don't really use arpeggios for improvisation in this style, just scales in various ways, with careful attention to where the harmonic notes are in relation to the strong beats, while we can break up the harmonies built on his eight note scale into 'lines' but these are a different thing to the melodic approach. It's not exactly the same thing, but it does remind me. BH is big on Bach.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-10-2015 at 08:19 AM.

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  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by woland
    Hey man - no worries - well founded snobbery is quite healthy. Plus I actually had good chuckle out of clueless comedians trying to squeeze a laughter or two from Macbeth (just imagine Mel Brooks doing Macbeth - not that he is clueless or anything - but he could pull it off). So basically I forgot to put a smiley after "BRUTAL".
    I'd pay money to see that.

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    sorry
    I did not get what you meant...
    Just a few chords from Prelude #1 from Well Tempered Piano - since you mentions maj7 not fitting with B-rok boys.

  5. #79

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    Pretty sure one of the Bach lute suites has a brief maj7 chord in the Prelude at one point. I can hear it in my head but I would have to look through the music to identify which one it is. I know because I always thought it was a really cool sound whenever I played it.

  6. #80

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    Just a few chords from Prelude #1 from Well Tempered Piano - since you mentions maj7 not fitting with B-rok boys.
    maj7 does not actually fit)

    It could be treated as suspension or even passing note in moving voices...

    this prelude is built on chordal voicings - voices are flowing each in its own way corresponding vertically too... and I think in certain moments he just followed linear logics...

    it's kind of both...

    But it's not major 7th for sure

  7. #81

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    By the way Christian.. regarding arpeggios

    maybe you know this prelude (C-dur I vol of WTK) was used by Gounaud - he composed melody for it.. how hearing changed - for him it was an accompaniment without melody...

  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    By the way Christian.. regarding arpeggios

    maybe you know this prelude (C-dur I vol of WTK) was used by Gounaud - he composed melody for it.. how hearing changed - for him it was an accompaniment without melody...
    Of course. If I understand what you are saying, the original melody (Bach's) was given by the top voice of the chords.

  9. #83

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    In figured bass you get 7 5 3 chords, but these are subject to specific preparations and resolutions. Not like jazz where you can just bung 'em in.

  10. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by woland
    Is there some set of quick rules one can follow to get Baroque vibe?
    For the sake of argument let's pick Summertime as a tune.
    I don't think anyone has mentioned the use of ornaments: the trill, mordent, appoggiatura, turn etc. Maybe try adding some ornamentation to the melody of Summertime as a first step to vibe it up.

  11. #85

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    Of course. If I understand what you are saying, the original melody (Bach's) was given by the top voice of the chords.
    In this case every voice of the chord is melodic

    By the way great 2 vol. research on continuo with historical quotes and samples is

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Art-Accomp.../dp/0486431886

    I have it but ... It's reading for a long time, relly

  12. #86

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    In figured bass you get 7 5 3 chords
    it must be dom7th - no?

  13. #87

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    I checked other cases which I could remember with maj7 in the period music... and they are all connected voicing - suspension or passing tones... Fmaj7 in Bach's Prelude is more complex but it is also suspension which I would rather call 'postponement' - it has very loose tension and very remote release...

    But anyway they are result of dual nature of music of teh period.. on one hand the heart of it is already functional harmony, it rules the form the development everything... on the other - they thought of texture as of polyphony even when they had straight chords and melody on top.. that makes voicing issues very important an they often intervene in harmonic way...

    With Bach it has esceptional quality... he somehow saw it all at a time.. not only the sun that makes the central tension but also smaller planets, meteors - each of them has its own power and at the same time works in concordance with the others. No-one could do it before or after - even Mozart or Schubert


    PS
    I believe that in some extravagant samples like Boccherini or Scarlatti we could probably find maj7 as clouristic effect (but I cannot really remember one)
    In early French baroque (before Lully) it also happens but I believe often connected with old linear thinking in voicing

  14. #88

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    dom7 also was secodary.. it was triad in 4 voices with one of the voices altered to create stronger tension...
    Later it recieved its own function due to its exceptional role in cadence...

  15. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    it must be dom7th - no?
    Well not necessarily. Depends on position within the scale. Intervals are diatonic unless otherwise indicated.

  16. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    In this case every voice of the chord is melodic

    By the way great 2 vol. research on continuo with historical quotes and samples is

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Art-Accomp.../dp/0486431886

    I have it but ... It's reading for a long time, relly
    I think I'll stick with learning the basics for now, and see how invested I get...

  17. #91

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    Hi guys,

    Our discussion about maj7th chords moved me to Bach’s score and to conversation with my friend (the one who played Allemande I posted above) in general we agreed that these chords are mostly the results of susupension or passing tones. In music of this kind it happens all the time… and in Bach’s music it is also quite common that when a resolution sot suspension comes he changes harmony so that resolved tone becomes a suspension itself

    but in a few days my friend came back with an interesting concept about maj7 chords in Bach.. in general it does not contradict what I mentioned above but makes an interesting insight into relations between the chords and functions…

    He suggested that we could set such a hierarchy of 7th chords
    1) V 7th chord (dom 7th)
    2) II 7th chord (min7th)
    3) IV 7th chord (maj7th)


    Dom7th is the only 7th chord that already was functional.
    One of its important qualities it can be resolved in two directions., it’s 3rd is the lead tone resolving up to tonic root, it’s 7th is resolving down to the 3rd of the root (absolutely the same in v-I in jazz but in jazz it is much localized).

    (Maj 7th could be resolved in two directions in some special cases only)

    Another important quality and distinction of dom7th is that there’s no need to prepare its 7th. (could be prepared but not obligatory/ In this Prelude by Bach the 7th in the dom7th chords is in most cases anticipated in previous chord but it’s connected with the character of the piece… the only case when it’s not prepared at all here is C7 in the 20th bar. Also G7 in bars 27 and 30 but in this case suspended C in the other voice makes this unprepared 7th smoother… and here we can see how expressive these modest means could be in such a harmonic texture)

    On the contrary in II 7th chord (Dm7 in C) - 7th should b always prepared (or anticipated)… like in this Bach’s Prelude: C in bass in Dm7 inversion is ainticipated with C in the same voice (bass) as root in C chord in previous bar.
    Or in 9th bar G in Am7 is anticipated in 8th bar with G in the same voice of Cmaj7 inversion. (here Am7 is II in the key of G).
    This chord in time became a part of cadence and this made its functional role more solid thought it did not reach functional independence of Dom7th – in other words II min7 function is to prepare dom 7 chord
    (which in jazz also became known as ii-v-i … and in this case very close to classical idea).

    IV 7th chord (maj chord) – here Fmaj7 makes suspension where 7th E resolving to 6th D which makes it immediately II chord inversion where C is expected to be resolved to D… that makes IV maj7th a suspension to suspension

    IIm7 inversion could be also treated as ‘Sixte ajoutee’ ( Rameau) - 6th added to IV triad.. (typical jazz 6th chord) in this case Fmaj7 can seem suspension to such a chord…

    So the idea is that maj7 is used on IV and makes a preparation to min7 used on II and makes a preparation to dom7 … so functional role of 7th chords gradually increase from maj7 that is slightly functional through its lead to IImin7th but still more resultative of passing notes – then through II min7 that has more solid position as cadential chord leading to dom 7th but again its 7th is still dependant on sus and passing tones – and finally to dom 7th that has stron functional role

  18. #92

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    Of course. If I understand what you are saying, the original melody (Bach's) was given by the top voice of the chords.


    In this case every voice of the chord is melodic


    Christian,

    regarding this issue of plyphonic texture of C-dur Prelude in WTK I... I came across a manuscript of this prelude in Wielhelm Friedemann Bach Notebooks.. and bgininnig from bar 7 it is notated as chords in half notes- like a choral... (I am not sure why - most probably lack of space?)...

    but that shows quite clearly how they understood this kind of texture...

  19. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Christian,

    regarding this issue of plyphonic texture of C-dur Prelude in WTK I... I came across a manuscript of this prelude in Wielhelm Friedemann Bach Notebooks.. and bgininnig from bar 7 it is notated as chords in half notes- like a choral... (I am not sure why - most probably lack of space?)...

    but that shows quite clearly how they understood this kind of texture...
    Well it would save writing it out, no? But yes, this makes sense.

    Interesting stuff about seventh chords in Baroque harmony, BTw. Thanks for taking the time.

  20. #94

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    Wow, what a great old thread! I'll resurrect it as there are always some jazz guitarists interested in improvising in Baroque style ( thanks Ted!!).

    I am far from expert but you can get a good vibe by focusing on the 3rd and 6th.

    For example in D major play D on A string and F# on B string, now descend to E and D followed by E again

    Then jump up to B on high E string. Play C#, B and A.

    This A sets you up perfectly to play the G over the Em chord. You can repeat the same sequence, for just the Em or continue up the chord scale, or you could go in any of the thousand other ways.

    Have fun!