How to play Baroque sounding lines?

**woland** · 07-08-2015, 09:52 PM

Christian and Jonah than you very much for the remarks and for the 5/3, 6/3 notation explanation.
Now the opening part of the basso continuo handout http://www.continuo.ca/files/Intro%2...%20Harmony.pdf makes perfect sense.
So if I understand the definition correctly "Rule of Octave" refers to a way to harmonize a scale via - major/minor 5/3 chord and 6/3 chords - is that a fair statement?

I am still not quite sure what are the implications of some specific way of harmonize major or minor scale - the handout says "Around 1600 when more composers began to think of vertical harmony constructed above the lowest sounding voice" and Jonah remarked "Bach did not play 'lines' - he played harmony"....

You both are quite right that it is toe dipping exercise although I did play some Baroque music all my life (started on classical guitar) although without any deep understanding. I just have strong attraction to that (for lack of better word) "vibe" and would love to be able to evoke it - even if playing over "Blue Bossa".

**Jonah** · 07-09-2015, 01:48 AM

Intellectually, I have a counter argument but it is really irrelevant.

sounds paradoxally a bit))

I am not a very good improvisor in baroque style so my thoughts are probably neither here nor there. It sounds like you have spent some time learning to do this, though?

I did... but I never considered myself to be a good baroque improvizor. As well as I cannot sing operatic arias but I think I can see good singers)))

I will try to find a sample of what I consider good baroque improvization or we could also take any baroque piece with obviously improvized character - like toccatas and some preludes - and analyze it... hope woland won't mind because it fits the topic

**Jonah** · 07-09-2015, 01:55 AM

These are samples of cinematic 'baroque' - why not imagine it over Blue Bossa

More academical instrumetation but tipical baroque/modern theme

**Jonah** · 07-09-2015, 02:11 AM

So if I understand the definition correctly "Rule of Octave" refers to a way to harmonize a scale via - major/minor 5/3 chord and 6/3 chords - is that a fair statement?

yes.. but it is more technical trick than rule that shows the essence of it

I am still not quite sure what are the implications of some specific way of harmonize major or minor scale - the handout says "Around 1600 when more composers began to think of vertical harmony constructed above the lowest sounding voice" and Jonah remarked "Bach did not play 'lines' - he played harmony"....

it's quite simple..

1) first try to think basically about functions T-S-D-T.. and main chords I - IV - V -I (C - F - G- C)

2) you have 4 - voices: three chord tones and is doubled chord tone. Voices are called bass - alto - tenor - soprano

3) you have 3 positions: close (when the tones of the triad go one by one - practically within one octave like c-e-g), open (when you omit the next tone - like c - g - e1), mixed. Bass is not involved in it - meaning you can take bass in any octave. First work only in close posistion

4) you have 3 soprano position - depending on which chord tone is in melody

5) you have three inversions - depending on what chord tone in the bass

So try to connect T-S-D-T, T-S-T-D, T-D-T... following thses rules

1) common chord tones stays on the same plays
2) non-common tones go to the nearest tones of the next chord
3) bass preferably contrary motion to the other tones...

Play this basic excercise for a while and you'll hear how it works... it's fun actually...

But use keyboard not guitar

**christianm77** · 07-09-2015, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by Jonah

sounds paradoxally a bit))

I did... but I never considered myself to be a good baroque improvizor. As well as I cannot sing operatic arias but I think I can see good singers)))

I will try to find a sample of what I consider good baroque improvization or we could also take any baroque piece with obviously improvized character - like toccatas and some preludes - and analyze it... hope woland won't mind because it fits the topic

We really need someone who *is * a good Baroque improvisor to comment on the forum then.

My intellectual response not back up in any actual music making is that continuo is a rough and ready system that could allow you to develop some baroque style improvisations on a basic level (I think I got the idea form CPE Bach's treatise, who admittedly was not really a baroque composer, but may have learned a thing or two off his dad.)

But unless one actually uses the process to improvise any analysis you or I can offer is basically irrelevant. My gut feeling is that full on modern classical music theory might be too much to work on. It's a very complex body of knowledge. What you need is to get familiar by working directly with some basic material, just as we would in jazz.

That's why I think that the rule of the octave, for example might be a good start.

If you follow the route of learning all of the theory first, you will never get around to actually improvising.

This link looks interesting:
Video: My personal exercises for developing baroque improvisation | Piano Forum

**christianm77** · 07-09-2015, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by woland

Christian and Jonah than you very much for the remarks and for the 5/3, 6/3 notation explanation.
Now the opening part of the basso continuo handout http://www.continuo.ca/files/Intro%2...%20Harmony.pdf makes perfect sense.
So if I understand the definition correctly "Rule of Octave" refers to a way to harmonize a scale via - major/minor 5/3 chord and 6/3 chords - is that a fair statement?

That's right.

There are more complex schemes that start bringing in more complex chords, but that's the basis of it.

This website really talks about the approach in some detail.
Monuments of Partimenti

Also this will be invaluable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figured_bass

I've just taken up the Lute so being able to diddle around with some stylistic continuo realisations and even full blown improv appeals, alongside reading the tab is an appealing idea. But the music of the 7 course lute is Rennaisance, quite a bit harmonically simpler than Baroque...

**woland** · 07-09-2015, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by Jonah

These are samples of cinematic 'baroque' - why not imagine it over Blue Bossa

Thanks Jonah - first example - especially first track from "Little Romance" was a good one - it had Baroque "vibe" but really non-Baroque sounding orchestration - you CAN imagine them doing Blue Bossa. Second track was Vivaldi - mandolin concerto. Third one was a bit MJQ sounding - they had that Blues on Bach album:

Second video with Swingle Singers was a bit too obvious ;-) - I quite liked their old stuff when I was a kid in early 60s - even more than Rolling Stones.

**woland** · 07-09-2015, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by Jonah

(...) try to connect T-S-D-T, T-S-T-D, T-D-T... following thses rules

1) common chord tones stays on the same plays
2) non-common tones go to the nearest tones of the next chord
3) bass preferably contrary motion to the other tones...

Sounds interesting - I own keyboard but I do not know how to play it - only use it to play (very badly) harmonic examples from jazz theory books. It will be interesting branching point.

**woland** · 07-09-2015, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

This link looks interesting:
Video: My personal exercises for developing baroque improvisation | Piano Forum

Excellent - I think he actually starts from Rule of Octave when he harmonizes the scale played in bass.
I need to mimic it on keyboard (which I can barely play) - but it is very convincing.
So I guess in a context of quartet if I want to use that approach I really need to sit with bass player and work out a specific partimenti in bass to play against.

**christianm77** · 07-09-2015, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by woland

Excellent - I think he actually starts from Rule of Octave when he harmonizes the scale played in bass.
I need to mimic it on keyboard (which I can barely play) - but it is very convincing.
So I guess in a context of quartet if I want to use that approach I really need to sit with bass player and work out a specific partimenti in bass to play against.

An obvious starting point would be jamming on a simple ground bass, something like Dido's Farewell.

My sole experience performing baroque music on the guitar is playing continuo in Dido and Aeneas. Great fun! TBH I found the vocal score much more help - has more figures too, as a non-professional in this area.

I would be interested to hear more from Rob MacKillop on the subject!

**Jonah** · 07-09-2015, 10:39 AM

We really need someone who *is * a good Baroque improvisor to comment on the forum then.

Good or bad... I never understood this... some people never call themseves good .. so what?
It's a conversation .. whatever is convinicing in words.. works.

If I had to ask John Ruskin - ok, you told great about architecture but now please build a great cathedral.. what would it be like?

I can iprovize in baroque style to a certain dergree which I myself find unsatosfactory....

My intellectual response not back up in any actual music making is that continuo is a rough and ready system that could allow you to develop some baroque style improvisations on a basic level (I think I got the idea form CPE Bach's treatise, who admittedly was not really a baroque composer, but may have learned a thing or two off his dad.)

I think Continuo could be also good introduction in harmony... but Continuo is first of all based on harmonization of Bass. It's important limitaion.

If you follow the route of learning all of the theory first, you will never get around to actually improvising.

My theoretical samples were strictly practical.

And Ok I can ask a few persons whome I consider to be good baroque improvizors... they will not join the forum... I can really ask... and they will answer.

But what should I ask?

**Jonah** · 07-09-2015, 10:43 AM

Second track was Vivaldi - mandolin concerto

I did not give that link... I think mandolin concerto was used in Kramer vs. Kramer..
and Butch and Sundence had original score

**Jonah** · 07-09-2015, 11:58 AM

only use it to play (very badly) harmonic examples from jazz theory books. It will be interesting branching point.

Could be misleading...

Classical harmony (including baroque) is 4-voices triad... in basic position it's c-e-g-c (in C) - it's a closed shell, you can harmonize melody and bass with the same chord. This simple unit makes the whole functional sysytem similar to molecular system

Jazz harmony operates with 4-voices 7th chord.. c-e-g-h it's absolutely different garmonic world - harmonizing h in melody with c major chord

**woland** · 07-09-2015, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Jonah

I did not give that link... I think mandolin concerto was used in Kramer vs. Kramer..
and Butch and Sundence had original score

You are right - Butch & Sundance score was by Bach(arach).
The first video has several tracks from Little Romance soundtrack - the first track illustrate "baroquism" fairly well.

**woland** · 07-09-2015, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Jonah

Could be misleading...

Classical harmony (including baroque) is 4-voices triad... in basic position it's c-e-g-c (in C) - it's a closed shell, you can harmonize melody and bass with the same chord. This simple unit makes the whole functional sysytem similar to molecular system

Jazz harmony operates with 4-voices 7th chord.. c-e-g-h it's absolutely different garmonic world - harmonizing h in melody with c major chord

Hmm... - I would not sell JSB short - I vividly remember:
Dm7, G6, C7, Fmaj7, F#dim7, Dm7b5/G#, G7, G7sus4 etc etc

**christianm77** · 07-09-2015, 01:16 PM

OK, here is my naive attempt at baroque improvisation using the techniques mentioned above. Really what I am doing is basing my soloing on chord tones and various types of embellishments. This works on a pre-composed chord progression:

Note: on listening back to this, I would avoid playing any octaves or fifths in 2-part improvising just for safety's sake. You can start to phase them in once you are used to 6ths and 3rds, and just make sure you don't do two in a row!

**Jonah** · 07-09-2015, 01:47 PM

Hmm... - I would not sell JSB short - I vividly remember:
Dm7, G6, C7, Fmaj7, F#dim7, Dm7b5/G#, G7, G7sus4 etc etc

sorry
I did not get what you meant...

**Jonah** · 07-09-2015, 02:10 PM

OK, here is my naive attempt at baroque improvisation using the techniques mentioned above. Really what I am doing is basing my soloing on chord tones and various types of embellishments. This works on a pre-composed chord progression:

Christian,
that's exactly what I'd call a 'baroque vibe'....

**Jonah** · 07-09-2015, 02:18 PM

Here's my friend.. he tried to improvize Sarabande in the style of Louis Couperin.. I like it becasue it sounds very authentic -both historically correct and at the same time I can hear it's modern player

**christianm77** · 07-09-2015, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Jonah

Christian,
that's exactly what I'd call a 'baroque vibe'....

Sure, certainly not authentic baroque in anyway, but a useful and attractive exercise to develop control over chord tone/passing tone improvisation, in the spirit of good fun.

I can see ways to develop this simple approach though.

**christianm77** · 07-09-2015, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Jonah

Here's my friend.. he tried to improvize Sarabande in the style of Louis Couperin.. I like it becasue it sounds very authentic -both historically correct and at the same time I can hear it's modern player

Yes that's very beautiful... You would need to study a lot of this music to get that keen attention to style.

I wonder if there's anyone who improvises in this way on lute (or guitar) or if it's purely a keyboard thing?

**Jonah** · 07-09-2015, 02:39 PM

this friend is really special..

As for lute...
Sure both teachers I took lute lessons with can do it quite smoothely... but I think the musical quality could be different.

As an example... I am almost sure that this Prelude by Weiss was originally improvized.. harmony, texture and technical nuances - all say that it was improvization written down

**Jonah** · 07-09-2015, 02:44 PM

Sure, certainly not authentic baroque in anyway, but a useful and attractive exercise to develop control over chord tone/passing tone improvisation, in the spirit of good fun.

I can see ways to develop this simple approach though.

I am not against it... I think I was not really clear form the biginning and it brought misunderstanding...

I meant that the real baroque piece has always tonal plan in general... fro example T-D/S-T keys... and the way they use it this is what makes it baroque essentially - not embelishments or phrasings...

though maybe you're right.. I am just trying to come fron the integral

**christianm77** · 07-09-2015, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Jonah

this friend is really special..

As for lute...
Sure both teachers I took lute lessons with can do it quite smoothely... but I think the musical quality could be different.

As an example... I am almost sure that this Prelude by Weiss was originally improvized.. harmony, texture and technical nuances - all say that it was improvization written down

Perhaps his Passacaglia too?

Preludes are more chord based, no? The melody here sounds like the result of the chords, not the other way around.

**christianm77** · 07-09-2015, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Jonah

I am not against it... I think I was not really clear form the biginning and it brought misunderstanding...

I meant that the real baroque piece has always tonal plan in general... fro example T-D/S-T keys... and the way they use it this is what makes it baroque essentially - not embelishments or phrasings...

though maybe you're right.. I am just trying to come fron the integral

I interpreted the original question as asking, how can I play lines that sound baroque over a jazz standard?

I think you are going into it rather more deeply/authentically, but that's not to say it's not interesting for its own sake. I am considering whether to go into a bit more deeply... Would need to be one step at a time.