Thinking while playing

[mr. beaumont]

I wanted to push this further but not completely derail the Benson thread.

I think of the jazz improviser's development as kind of a circle...you start out, you tell your fingers where you want them to go...over time, it becomes intuitive...your fingers go there "on their own." but eventually you reach a point where you can control that...you're back to telling your fingers where to go...but they listen

So I guess, the thinking while playing thing...it's the same. You start out, you got to think...you practice, practice, and you get yourself to a point where you don't have to think, much or at all...but that's not really the end goal, is it? That step beyond, where you can think and react and play music you're seeing for the first time at a high level--that's the full circle...

What say you?

[vintagelove]

Imo this is why singing what you play is very important. It keeps you from letting your fingers create the music, and ensures it comes from your mind.

I also try to divide my practice time between tunes and new vocabulary so fresh ideas work their way in..... Eventually.

The above coupled with learning lots of tunes helps with playing well on music your seeing for the first time. That being said, if someone hands you something giant steps'esqe..... Well, good luck.

[pamosmusic]

Imo this is why singing what you play is very important. It keeps you from letting your fingers create the music, and ensures it comes from your mind.

I also try to divide my practice time between tunes and new vocabulary so fresh ideas work their way in..... Eventually.

The above coupled with learning lots of tunes helps with playing well on music your seeing for the first time. That being said, if someone hands you something giant steps'esqe..... Well, good luck.

Can you elaborate on that a bit? I noticed you said "ideas work THEIR way in" as opposed to you working the ideas into your playing ... perhaps just your wording but it implies something different to me. I would describe my practice that way. I work ideas in a lot of contexts and they sort of find their way in through osmosis some time down the road. Other guys I know drill ideas into their playing one at a time. Never been successful for me. How do you work on ideas?

[mr. beaumont]

Good thoughts all...

I want to also add...there's a difference between thinking and planning too...too much planning can really leave you dead in the water if something goes wrong...

[vintagelove]

Can you elaborate on that a bit? I noticed you said "ideas work THEIR way in" as opposed to you working the ideas into your playing ... perhaps just your wording but it implies something different to me. I would describe my practice that way. I work ideas in a lot of contexts and they sort of find their way in through osmosis some time down the road. Other guys I know drill ideas into their playing one at a time. Never been successful for me. How do you work on ideas?

Ok say for instance on vocabulary day I am working on a concept, let say over a dom7, playing melodic minor vocabulary up a half step. That gives you your altered sounds. If you practice that enough, eventually when your playing over tunes, those sounds will work their way into your improvisation. I think the Methany line is something like if he practices something it will take about six months to truly work its way into his playing...... Seems about right, but it varies for the difficulty of the concept. Something like a little quote is gonna pop up quicker than using a completely new sound/scale, etc.

I try to limit it to a few concepts I am shedding at a time. Right now it's, mm vocabulary, rhythm changes subs, dominant subs. I also am working the pat martino lines, the bird thesis fundamental lines, and a few other things, but those are less critical to hit every day, and part of a bigger plan. Knowing how much you can digest, and the ability to plan/structure your practice time is critical to improving.


If i if I keep on seeing cool stuff on this site, it makes following the plan a bit tougher!!!


Hope that helps.

[grahambop]

When I'm playing at a reasonable tempo I just have to 'go with the flow' and hope for the best. I don't feel able to think and play, that's when train wrecks happen. At slow tempos though, I can think ahead to some extent.

[paulkogut]

In my opinion, everyone is ‘thinking’ while playing, it’s just that improvising music in real time only has room for one ‘layer’ of thought.


For example, I could be on the bandstand playing a tune and think ‘surprise’ or ‘brighten it up’ and get a certain result. But to get that result, I had to have had the following thoughts in the woodshed.


“Thats a surprising line that Chick just played, it really brightened the tune up”
“Oh, he’s using D7sus over Ab7 in the key of Eb, and playing some angular pentatonic lines.
"If it's D7sus over Ab7 in the key of Eb, how does that transpose to the key of G?"
“How do I finger angular pentatonic lines?”
“What is a pentatonic scale?”
“How can I train my ears to steal licks off of records?”
"Who are the jazz musicians I should be listening to?"
etc, etc,

If I need to have any of those secondary thoughts on the bandstand, I'm not really making music in the moment.


It’s always a challenge on the is fourm, I don’t want to discourage anyone from engaging with this music at any level, nor do I want to sell the high standards of the art form short. The people we all listen to and admire have put a ton of work into the basics, so the thought process on a gig can be ‘what to I want to play?” with no need for “what should I play and how do I play it?”


PK
Welcome to PaulKogut.com
http://www.youtube.com/paulkogutmusic

[Pat Clare]

This is an important topic for sure. When we speak in a conversationthat’s very fluid we don’t have to think about it.
I studied improvisation with Karl Berger , he said that ifyou try to think about it, the music will pass you by, also he encouraged
singing along withyour solos as a way of preventing your mind from thinking, using space to frameyour lines. These were presented as ways of developing an original voice , not tryingto cover a particular style. The idea being more you know the less you have to think aboutit.

[henryrobinett]

For myself I distinguish between THINKING and LOOKING. I can look at the chord changes going by. I can LOOK at my fretboard and LOOK at the possibilities outlined on my fretboard. I can SEE the stream of arpeggios and rhythmic groupings running by, coming up. But once I get caught up in CONSIDERING whether this is good or not, CONSIDERING how to spell or finger a certain chord or try and REMEMBER how I played that lick, I've sunk down into the depths of thinking and I get mired. I can't really play effectively when I do that. I've learned, for the most part, to just sit back and LOOK -- which HEARING is the same process. Fretboard work has been done years before. And still when I practice. But for me I've learned to just not think while I play. I try and react and that means just being there with a guitar in my hand and allowing myself to play music. Maybe sing.

[mr. beaumont]

In my opinion, everyone is ‘thinking’ while playing, it’s just that improvising music in real time only has room for one ‘layer’ of thought.


For example, I could be on the bandstand playing a tune and think ‘surprise’ or ‘brighten it up’ and get a certain result. But to get that result, I had to have had the following thoughts in the woodshed.


“Thats a surprising line that Chick just played, it really brightened the tune up”
“Oh, he’s using D7sus over Ab7 in the key of Eb, and playing some angular pentatonic lines.
"If it's D7sus over Ab7 in the key of Eb, how does that transpose to the key of G?"
“How do I finger angular pentatonic lines?”
“What is a pentatonic scale?”
“How can I train my ears to steal licks off of records?”
"Who are the jazz musicians I should be listening to?"
etc, etc,

If I need to have any of those secondary thoughts on the bandstand, I'm not really making music in the moment.


It’s always a challenge on the is fourm, I don’t want to discourage anyone from engaging with this music at any level, nor do I want to sell the high standards of the art form short. The people we all listen to and admire have put a ton of work into the basics, so the thought process on a gig can be ‘what to I want to play?” with no need for “what should I play and how do I play it?”


PK
Welcome to PaulKogut.com
http://www.youtube.com/paulkogutmusic

I think that's a really nice way of putting it.

I also think that if anyone thinks being told "it's hard work and it takes time" is discouraging...maybe they should take up a new hobby.

[wolflen]

the process is different to each of us...for me it was "learn it in ALL keys" and in the beginning that is a lot of work .. and even if you are told/shown the benefits of knowing all 12 keys inside and out..getting it under your fingers and into you "musical mind" takes time ..

in a nutshell..knowing how to play in all keys-in the large overview-is just playing ONE big key - using crossover points at any point between keys to extend an idea or melodic line .. I thank myself for the intense study of diminished and augmented scale theory..(still doing it !) as it allows me to "think" in several keys at once..and explore other options without feeling lost

I do try to map out a tune before I play it..wrong turn-yikes..back to the map..

[Tag101]

When I think of thinking while playing, I always think it means thinking of what to play. (Yes, that sounds very strange!) If you are thinking about how to get a line or idea out that you are hearing in your head, that is just a lack of practice, and it will come. If you are thinking about an idea to play next, that is a worse situation. That is why having a large vocabulary of digested lines, licks and melodies is so important. They pop into your head while you are playing, and they never really come out the same way.

[nick1994]

If you have to think of the changes while playing you don't the tune well enough

[sgcim]

Stan Getz used to talk about getting into the Alpha State when he was improvising really well, where he wouldn't have to think about anything, and the horn played itself.

[mr. beaumont]

If you have to think of the changes while playing you don't the tune well enough

well...that's some of that common knowledge that gets repeated...but is it true?

I'd argue the step beyond forgetting the changes is being able to actively think and visualize them bars ahead of time as you craft your line.

[henryrobinett]

well...that's some of that common knowledge that gets repeated...but is it true?

I'd argue the step beyond forgetting the changes is being able to actively think and visualize them bars ahead of time as you craft your line.

Well sure, but as I've said, it depends on how you've defined thinking. No one seems to grok what I'm saying. Maybe. What is THINKING?? Thinking is not KNOWING or Looking. I can look at the changes in my mind's eye. And it's not FORGETTING the changes. It's KNOWING the changes.

[nick1994]

well...that's some of that common knowledge that gets repeated...but is it true?

I'd argue the step beyond forgetting the changes is being able to actively think and visualize them bars ahead of time as you craft your line.

how do you craft your lines, though? If you're thinking bars ahead, do you think about the chord quality and think about how you want to approach it?

[Jazzism]

That step beyond, where you can think and react and play music you're seeing for the first time at a high level--that's the full circle...

What say you?

Yeah, im interested to explore this a bit more myself. I mean its one thing if you have shedded a tune and your only responsibility is to be creative with it, but if its music your seeing for the first time, you have to read it down, which adds another level of complexity, and then, you have to try and make a meaningful contribution to the music, while listening and reacting to whats going on around you. Lots of high level multitasking!

[pkirk]

The people we all listen to and admire have put a ton of work into the basics, so the thought process on a gig can be ‘what to I want to play?” with no need for “what should I play and how do I play it?”

This is how I see it. If you've played a long time and worked on many things, then you know what you *can* do, in terms of the mechanics/calculation aspects of improvising.

Sure, I'm always woodshedding something or other and I try to place some of that stuff in on the bandstand, but most of what I'm doing is playing stuff I already hear well, I know what it will sound like, and I put no more thought into it than I do to the rules of grammar when speaking. I think the problem of what/whether to think while you're playing diminishes in relevance as your experience/skills progress, and is replaced by things that don't require calculation, such as
maintaining the groove, listening to your bandmates, using dynamics, shaping your solo, comping sympathetically, making the music sound good, and other aspects that ultimately are where I think creativity resides.

[eddy b.]

For me where I'm at with this part of the process of playing jazz is super focused yet completely relaxed listening. Really listening to everything that is happening in a detatched yet present state of being. I' ve been listening for what's next during the pauses in my lines and really focusing on what drums and bass are doing. So in a way it is full circle where in the beginning I knew very little but knew enough to listen and play somthing that sounded right(at least to me....I'm sure I sounded bad in a bad way).... and now twenty plus years into this I am finally free of the thinking/ analysing/stressing out stuff and back to listening with all I have and playing something that sounds right..at least to me.

[princeplanet]

Let's face it, some "think" more than others. Listen, and look at Monk for example - the way his fingers hover over the keys like he hasn't decided which notes to hit until the final microsecond. Sometimes he's a little late because he's always second guessing, he can't make up his mind in time! That's showing you thought in action. You can hear it. I think I hear that conscious "wringing out the notes" in Miles also. Maybe Jimmy Raney is one of the few guitarists that, to me, sounds like he "considers" many of his lines.

Of course all the free blowers will have you believe they're considering everything.....

[Tag101]

well...that's some of that common knowledge that gets repeated...but is it true?

I'd argue the step beyond forgetting the changes is being able to actively think and visualize them bars ahead of time as you craft your line.

But thats still thinking. There is a place that you can get to, and I am sure you are aware of it, where there really is NO thinking. You are clearly hearing music in your head, and you are just flowing. Its a very rare place to be, but I think everyone has experienced it at one point or another, regardless of your musical level. You dont have to think where you are going next, you hear it in your head real time, and it just keeps coming. What you are playing over is kind of in the back of your head, and you just hear things that feel good to you inside. Its rare, but thats where I think guys like Benson, Wes and Pat Martino get to most of the time. (As well as most of the greats) Out of everything I have ever recoreded, I have ONE clip where I am in that zone. I came home, plugged in ice cold, hit the video recorder, and played. There is a bit of sloppiness here and there because I was not even warmed up at all, but that makes no difference. I was hearing it all before it happened, totally clear in my head. Just a simple more rock like blues, but it felt SO fantastic. When it was over, I was like "what just happened"?? I think most of us get that a little bit here and there, but the greats can bring it on much of the time. Lots and lots of practice, and a little bit of luck mixed in.

[destinytot]

I think there are parallels with learning to speak a foreign language, and with learning to drive. Ultimately, although I'm a long from achieving it, the craft of the actor is my ideal.

What I see in common is a shift in the focus of attention as one advances. A beginner, elementary, or intermediate student of a foreign language or driving practises in order to develop conscious control of syntax in the former and the use of pedals, levers and wheels in the latter. In practising either, the goal is unconscious competence; this frees the mind to think beyond the 'how to' in favour of the 'where to' - adapting and adjusting to circumstances with flexibilty (and moving beyond pragmatics to style). I can't remember where I got it, but this model speaks for itself:

Regarding the actor's craft, I find value in David Mamet's advice (summarised below by a filmmaker) to become outward-directed. The person learning to speak a foreign language must eventually listen and respond to an interlocutor, and the learner driver must move off into traffic; the intermediate student in both fields requires sympathetic circumstances, i.e. a patient interlocutor and roads that aren't too busy (and an instructor ready to take control of the vehicle). The actor's interaction, however, elevates communication with audiences to an art. Here's Mamet (who has no time for method acting or formal training):

"Become outward-directed. “Nothing in life is as interesting as a man trying to get a knot out of his shoelace.” – Brecht

The more a person’s concentration is outward, the more naturally interesting that person becomes. This is what makes a person with an objective come alive: they have to take their attention off themselves and put it on the person they want something from.

This is the misjudgment of the Method: the notion that one can determine the effect one wants to have on an audience, and then study and supply said effect. This is not only selfish and joyless, but a waste of time. Our effect is not for us to know. Only our intention is under our control.

The audience is looking for spontaneity, for individuality, for strength. They aren’t going to get it from your tired old interpretive powers."
(From Invent Nothing, Deny Nothing: Gleaning the Essence from Mamet’s True and False)

[Jonah]

I'd rather ask: thinking about what...

to be interesting composer of improvizor should think about plenty of things but definitely not about chord changes...

[destinytot]

The bubble of attention needs to become huge, But first the bubble must be monitored to make sure it is sound/solid.