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Well, jazz blues is not always about a Dom chord for the I chord... (often it's I6), but even when it is a Dom, just see it as the V of it's imaginary parent key. So for F7, treat is as the V in the key of Bb. Obviously all the 2-5's are seen as just V, and for any alt Doms throw in your Dim, alt or whole tone material.
Originally Posted by M2AX
Many ways to approach every chord, but for bar 9 (Gm7 in the key of F), instead of thinking V (C7), I prefer to think of a Tonic sound by seeing the iim7 as vi m7 (so Bb Tonic). This is because the iim7 in bar 9 seems to be to be very much a cadence that has landed in a temporary minor key (natural minor, not Harm or MM)- as opposed to merely assisting the following V - I cadence. My fave players always do something beautiful in bar 9 and I also try to give it the respect it deserves!
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10-24-2018 08:38 AM
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Thanks. I will try this approach. If you have any other useful approaches to soloing with this method I would be very grateful if you could share them. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Well, jazz blues is not always about a Dom chord for the I chord... (often it's I6), but even when it is a Dom, just see it as the V of it's imaginary parent key. So for F7, treat is as the V in the key of Bb. Obviously all the 2-5's are seen as just V, and for any alt Doms throw in your Dim, alt or whole tone material.
Many ways to approach every chord, but for bar 9 (Gm7 in the key of F), instead of thinking V (C7), I prefer to think of a Tonic sound by seeing the iim7 as vi m7 (so Bb Tonic). This is because the iim7 in bar 9 seems to be to be very much a cadence that has landed in a temporary minor key (natural minor, not Harm or MM)- as opposed to merely assisting the following V - I cadence. My fave players always do something beautiful in bar 9 and I also try to give it the respect it deserves!
-Max
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Yeah for bop etc you can use the dom7 and maj7 (and my favourite the minor6) pretty interchangeably as a I chord in any tune, including blues. Tis something that came very naturally to Benson's generation.
These days, people get hung up on the chord colours a bit more.
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I understand this, but where would one resolve this to on a blues progression? Originally Posted by christianm77
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Do what? Originally Posted by M2AX
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Benson's approach is all about tension and release (dominant to tonic) so my question would be what "tonic" would I resolve to; would I resolve it to the next chord or something else.
Thanks,
-Max
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OK the I chord in the blues is the I. Doesn't matter what colour it is. Originally Posted by M2AX
The IV can be a temporary I, then goes back to I
The V can be a temporary I perhaps as well, if you like.
You can play into any chord you like, resolve to it, highlight it... That's kind of what changes playing is IMO
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ok, thanks.
-Max
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Read some of the thread and the OP article. I 'm pretty familiar with Richie Harts system, since i too studied with him for a few years, and what a great player and teacher he is! When he talks about seeing chords as tonic or dominant, he doesn't necessarily refer to the quality of the chords involved. He just sees chord progressions as either creating tension (thus calling them "a dominant area"), or resolving tension (thus being "a tonic area"). But the actual chords or movement someone chooses to use might be anything, even stuff outside of the key, or chords and scales directly clashing with the original harmony. After a while, this approach can lead to pretty liberal substitutions, and i too recognize it as being a very important part of the bebop idiom and language.
He also didn't focus his improv around scales, but more around chords, chord substitution and movement (although he does know his scales very thoroughly). Whether a simple II-V-I or just one chord, or even parts of a tune, he would play choruses after choruses always playing different harmonies over the original changes. He saw a jazz soloist like a in-real-time arranger who has the ability to reharmonize and interpret harmony in many ways, and do it on the spot..
But in retrospect, i think what makes someone like Ritchie Hart such an amazing player isn't the technique (and boy does he have technique, he plays like Benson with the pick, and does Wes better than Wes with the thumb), nor the theoretical knowledge of literally everything that has to do with bebop. But it is the knowledge of the music, the "i have heard everything and transcribed everything there is" thing that Ritchie had. Vast knowledge, he is a living encyclopedia of the music. Not unlike Peter Bernstein or other great players, he has done the work, knows all tunes (thousands of them) and what all serious players have done for the music!
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Does that make any sense? It's kind of easier to demonstrate than describe. Originally Posted by M2AX
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Yes eventually you get past contrapuntal movements as being what make music move and begin to see that harmony is why melodic lines work.
Then you begin to be able to see and hear other possible organizations for how music can work.... which somewhat begins with understanding Function as just a term for labeling how harmony works with.... a Reference. Which leads to Tonic and Dominant becoming very relative terms.... meaning any chord can be a tonic or Dominant .... don't forget about sub dominant. Very relative with composition... and jazz.
Obviously melodic concepts and melodies are still going on... it's just eventually your able to hear harmony and possible harmonies with any note or melody.... they become one.
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Can you provide an example of where consideration of the Subdominant is necessary where T/D may not be enough? Originally Posted by Reg
For me, something like a IVmaj chord (not in a blues context) presents the only achilles heel to a T/D approach. For example, when you come across the IV chord in ATTYA and using T/D, do you hear it as T or D? Or SD?
Might all 3 approaches be fine? If so, then SD is perhaps not as necessary for improv as for, say, composition?
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
ya,
R1 = 4 = 5
5 - 1 = 4
4 + 5 - 9
then you have if 6 were 9 which is code for Jimi H.
flattened and sharpen all of the above, you get the Japanese attack on Perl Harbor,
the birth of bebop.
I may be a bit out on the dates here.
Love and Peace
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Hmmmmmmmmmm.... I'd like to see that too. Originally Posted by princeplanet
(Peter Bernstein said - it's all V/I... except for IV, maybe... I think that sums up my view as well.... Not well defined but certainly ... a thing?)
Lot of the time, the IV is a passing chord or an over-run chord. The IV in Autumn Leaves is really just a passing chord to me...
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Cool, but what do you play over the IV in ATTYA? Or, what sounds best to you, even if you think all 3 options (T/S and D) can work? Originally Posted by christianm77
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Dunno tbh, it’s a bit of a nonentity chord to me. Originally Posted by princeplanet
More Ab major. Probably already thinking about the pickup into C major.
Ab major on Db major is good. Probably better than Ab major on Ab major
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