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Do you think its worth learning an entire solo like the ones in the Wolf marshall book. Seems like their great sols, but will take alot of time to memorize them. I really like the the Wes version of Misty.
Any thoughts?
Thx
ken
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10-21-2007 08:03 PM
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I don't find it very useful to study an entire solo. Find the elements you like or surprise you and figure out the thinking behind it. Then try playing similar phrases and make it your own.
- Dirk
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agreed.
transcribing is a different story, as it trains your ear as well, but if a whole solo is already out there for ya, all it is is a workout for the fingers...your time would be better spent learning to improvise.
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Yes, that's true, transcribing solos is a different matter, very good ear training. What do you think about memorizing licks, 007?
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My ear is'nt good enough to transcriobe liks that go million miles an hour, nor do i have the time..I like to learn some cool licks, then make them my own
Ken
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I think it's good to learn the entire solo, just so you you can get the feel of how other guitarists build their solos.
"transcribing is a different story, as it trains your ear as well, but if a whole solo is already out there for ya, all it is is a workout for the fingers...your time would be better spent learning to improvise."
Learning solos gives you a lot "learning to improvise"wise. In my opinion it's one of the most important elements in soloing.
Avi
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I can't think of a reason not to learn the whole solo unless you don't really like it or it's beyond you.
I've learned solos where they take off in a direction I don't really care for so I don't spend time working on that section but to not learn them just because it takes too long? You never know, there might be some gold left in that mine.
There is no right way. If you get one great lick out of the part you have worked on, it's worth it. If you get more...all the better.
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i must respectfully disagree.
Originally Posted by avioravioavi
learning a solo is just learning a solo. analysis is the important thing, and analysis can be done without learning the solo note for note.
i teach my students to look for the "a ha!" parts, the ones that really grab you. transcribe those, learn them note for note if you wish, but look at what's going on in there. that way if you want that sound again, you can get it. it's the whole "give a man a fish/teach a man to fish" cliche.
there's nothing wrong with learning a whole solo note for note, but often i find students who do that and never look at the "why." wes montgomery played some really cool licks over altered dominants, for example, but it's only after analyzing them that you realize what he's really doing (often a blues scale, for example...simple, yet effective)
now as far as building a solo, i can definitely agree, and the key here is to listen to those who were good at building a solo. miles comes to mind. again, though, a lot can be accomplished by listening and taking notes as opposed to learning the whole thing...using wes again, seeing how he starts off with single notes, builds a motif, goes to octaves for the second chorus, and finishes with block chords...
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Hmmm im kinda half and half on this one. I would say if you really like the solo, go ahead and learn it. However, i dont think its worth the time to learn one of those 8 minute solos that seem to go on forever. I am currently learning West Coast Blues single-line part because i really enjoy the solo and like most of the licks in it. But yea i could see both point of views
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I am reading two different subjects here, transcribing a solo, and learning someone else's solo note for note. Personally I have found great value in the small amount of transcribing I have done. It has done wonders for my ears.
As far as learning solos verbatum, I am not interested. If it is a pop/rock tune, I will learn the signature licks, and figure out what scales the player used, and will play in that area, but they are my ideas at that point.
As far as jazz goes, I like learning heads, but not solos. I would much rather mine melodies than many solos. Frankly I think much of what passes as solos are filler. Just doesn't move me. There is this gravitational pull to put out a constant stream of 8th notes, and after a while, it just seems uninspired.
Even great players like Wes or Pat Martino seem at times to be filling space. However, I greatly enjoy learning some of the great's favorite licks.
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I think Derek has a good thought here. There are actually thousands of great melodies to be learned and the value here is much like transcribing. It all comes out in your own music, ie, most of us "quote" melodies or partial melodies routinely in our improvisation. Very often, the melodies we internalize are great melodies written by people who were gifted with the ability write melodies that are unforgettable. These melodies are recognized and often appreciated by our audiences when we put them into our improvisations.
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You know what? I think maybe you have a point there, but you should still listen a lot even if you don't learn it note for note. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
thanks,
Avi
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I don't know, I think Mr. Beaumont has the idea here. It's all about what you do with the material you learn. I have spent hours learning complicated heads and fingerstyle arrangements note for note, and I feel now that those efforts were mostly a waste. Not that it wasn't fun at the time, but those arrangements were specific to one song and one song alone, and had very little application for my music. On the other hand, copying someone's lick and incorporating it into my own "ouvre" with some understanding about the lick helps my improvisational repertoire (and as others have said, helps my ear quite a bit).
It's all about how one goes about it. If I just copy a Jim Hall solo lick for lick without understanding it, it's useless; but if I copy his turnaround to 'Round Midnight and work it into my own turnaround, with some understanding of how it fits, it becomes something I can pull out in other situations as well.
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I have practiced scales and improvising for years with minimal progress. I think it is great to learn entire solos. I have found that lick books out of context get me nowhere. The really great licks are in the really great solos. Just get one of Wolf's books and a looper llike transkiber and take it one lick at time.
this is what you need to practice if you want to learn the jazz language.
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Learning a lick or phrase= great way to build improvisational language IF you internalized it by analysis and how to apply it.
Learning an entire written solo= great technique building, learning how the player think, time consuming.
Transcribing a solo= great ear trainning, takes persistence and patience, but well worth it in the end.
I agree with taking the "best" bits, the parts that really speak to you, and nail those parts until you can do it on a subconscious level. I think that's the best way to go, and most pragmatic.
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I recently attended Wolf DVD release party (he is my teacher) and I found it profound that there were a lot of people there that had all of his books and could not play a single phrase from any of them.
The secret to my success with this has been the use of transcription software that allows one to loop sections, remmebers those loops from session to session, and allows slowed down playback at concert pitch.
I think it is important to learn phrases of the jazz language in time.
The thing people tend to focus on is lefthand fingerings. What they neglect when they do this is the rhythm. Rhythm is as important as pitch when learning the jazz language. In some cases a good rhythm will work no matter what the pitches.
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I absolutely agree. Of the three components of music, melody, harmony and time, you can jack up the melody, and recover no problem. You can play a "wrong' chord occassionally and easily be forgiven. However, if you screw up the time, you won't get called back, and will get a rep of being a player with lousy time.
I can tolerate (mostly) the various clams in my playing, but when I hear playbacks of rehearsals, bad timing just grates my nerves, intollerable. This is why I practice so much with Band in a Box. I get away with playing rubato on my solo gig, but I make sure I play regularly with others and BIAB to keep on top of time.
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It is my theory that people that aren't successful at learning trabscribed solos do not have a way of learning the solos in time, whether it be at tempo or slowed down.
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Playing in TIME, with good meter is EVERYTHING
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Yup! Tung is absolutely right on! Playing with good time is essential for jazz. You can get away with a lot of other stuff if your time is good.
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Haven't posted in a while but have been learning Wes' solo from "Unit 7" note-for-note... probably since the last time I posted (so a few months, off and on). What I find, as I go over several bars at a time, is I go off in different directions and sometimes don't return to the transcription at all for a few days. So it's not really a "religious" thing but just a way of acquiring licks and inspiration.
As for "ah ha" moments - Wes throws them in all over the place, leading me to take issue a bit with Derek's comment about filling space. It just sounds like Wes is killing time because he is extremely smooth and throws in unexpected variations in the midst of what sound like traditional blues riffs. Well worth spending some time looking / listening really, really carefully. I never heard them until I "saw" them on the page.
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I actually have a bit of trouble sitting down and learning someone else's solo. It seems like I'm strictly copying them and not getting enough of me in it. However, I had never thought about melody vs. timing, and it has made me realize that I should probably work on excellent timing more than note choice for now.
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I have exactly the opposite problem - breaking out of my own repetitive soloing practices and injecting new ideas into the mix. The discipline involved in learning note-for-note solos acts as something of a deterrent or counterbalance against launching into my standard, pentatonic blues riffing.
One reason I really love learning Wes' solos is that they are bluesy but are so outside the box in terms of his use of pentatonics and his incorporation of all sorts of cool things.
But that's just me...
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I have been transcribing 'Blues for Alican' by Joe Pass, and that has been an interesting learning experience, but I also have 'Have you Met Miss Jones' that I found pre-transcribed that I have been playing around with.
While transcribing Alican has been useful, I have actually gotten much more from more or less learning parts of Miss Jones. No, I haven't bothered to learn it note-for-note, but rather many of the things that interest me I have committed to memory. I do think that this song is done very nicely, and if I had the time and inclination I probably would learn it note-for-note -- there's really nothing wrong with that if one enjoys any particular arrangement.
After all it is good practice to start with structure, which gives a person a solid foundation to build upon. Improvise upon that, and if you get stuck you can always 'fall-back' to things you have learned.
I do think it's a waste of time to memorize a complete song, unless it interests you from beginning to end.
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Gravy,
I agree, learning someone's version of a tune completely can be a waste of time, or it can be a step in the development of a player.
Someone transcribes then learns a Joe Pass tune or Martin Taylor or Wes tune. There are things to be learned there, but those guys never played the same tune the same way twice.
Playing arrangements is not jazz. It can be a step in the process, but jazz is about improvisation, not mimicry, or rote memorization. You can play a tune in a jazz style or with jazz chords, but it is still playing an arrangement of something that a player played that way just once.
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