Improvising over Turnarounds

[henryrobinett]

I like to follow the changes. To play in one key center while a bunch of dominants move chromatically sounds cheesy to me. But yes, arpeggiating everything also can sound cheesy. You're missing some steps or concepts between scales and arpeggios. I think if you spend more time working through some melodic patterns, ii-V and the like it can help.

[md54]

Plot a graph of deteriorating jazz sales and jazz venues against the academic 'progress' of jazz. We all know the shape of that graph!

There is nothing 'superior' about playing to empty rooms..... but then you could become a jazz academic instead!


Roll on PUNK JAZZ.

[md54]

Everything is a harmonic concept. Even playing the tune is a harmonic concept.
It doesn't matter what way you approach it, if it doesn't sound good, its not worth much. This applies to anything - whether its playing complex ideas over changes or playing simple melodies based on the tune. Both can sound good or bad. There's nothing superior about 'playing the tune' - nor is there anything superior about 'playing the changes'. Every thing we do every sound we make are just equal parts of the puzzle.

If you stop playing the tune....... you're no longer playing the tune. You are playing something else. No wonder Joe Public don't get it. However your complex concepts might impress a jazz student or your Mum perhaps.

[vhollund]

Thanks everyone for taking the time to provide some guidance, I am working through all that has been recommended.

What I am trying to unlock is the concept that the turnaround is not played as a straight ii v. I guess I am thinking a turnaround needs to go away from the key to come back to it.

Lets say a turn around to ii (Dm) like a Cmaj7, Bb7, B7, A7.

To follow the chords is gonna sound cheesey and for me very difficult to play a melody that is not gonna sound like a pile of arpeggios. To stay in C over the whole thing and just highlight the C# of A7 a bit stock. Is this not the section of a song where after you play some nice melodies I should be trying to play something that goes outside to then resolve to create one of those "oh yeah that was cool" moments?

Yes understand transcribe and examine the masters, absolutely I am doing that. I am trying to understand the theoretical approach.

Theoretically and musically
You can break a turnaround down to :

in, out, in, out =
l Vl7 ii V7

Then what is happening in a turnaround, is that you go to the 2m by means of a (secondairy) dominant chord (6) in the second half of the 1st mesure, landing on 2 (subdominant) in the second mesure (down beat) you then play the 5 as tension leading you back to 1

That's a basic turnaround
l = in / release
Vl = out / tension
ii = in / release
V = out / tension

If you consider that there are only 7 diatonic chords in major
you can narrow that number down, as 4 and 2m are parallel major/minor
So you can go to 2m or 4, same functionality
and back to 1 wich can be sub'ed by 3m

So, In a major turnaround,
l = iii and Vl = ii ,

And is treatet as only 2 functional consonant sounds
Then that leaves you V Vl and VII that you can treat and hear, as dissonant/dominant sounds, leading to the konsonant sounds

V7 is obviusly the dominant of ĺ and so is the Vii m7b5
(9 chord with M3 as lowest note)
VI7 leads to ii

And that covers the 'diatonic' chords of a major tonality, cooking it down to
2 consonant sounds/functionalities, and
2 contrasting dissonant/dominant sounds/functionalities

The minor/major subs gives you more options of how to play the main consonant sounds,

Tonic :
l (iii), vi
Subdominant :
ii, IV

And you then treat dissonance using all the all the dominant sounds and subs leading to one of these functions/sounds

You can apply the same concept to a minor turnaround

The concept, though it probably sounds a bit complicated at first glance, is actually a simplification giving you more options for variation

....
To your specific Dm solo example, you can chose only to treat Bb7 and A7 and

And then treat A7 as Eb7
"Oh yeah that was cool" effect guaranteed

Theoretically, you can think of B7 Bb7 A7 as :

F7 Bb7 Eb7 Dm (sequence of 5ths)
So when on B7 you can play F7 stuff (vsub)
Or Cminor blues, if you will

Cmaj7 downbeat
F7(sub) upbeat wierd
Bb7 downbeat
Eb7 (sub) upbeat wierd
Dm downbeat

the 2 downbeat chords of the turnaround are
Bb7 and Dm

If you go back to the concept I described before and play Bbmaj7 over Bb7 (yes it works)
Then Bb is the subdominant sound, (being the major parallel of Gm)
and Dm is temporarily "tonic"

Feel free to ask if something doesn't make sense to you

[md54]

Theoretically and musically
You can break a turnaround down to :

in, out, in, out =
l Vl7 ii V7

Then what is happening in a turnaround, is that you go to the 2m by means of a (secondairy) dominant chord (6) in the second half of the 1st mesure, landing on 2 (subdominant) in the second mesure (down beat) you then play the 5 as tension leading you back to 1

That's a basic turnaround
l = in / release
Vl = out / tension
ii = in / release
V = out / tension

If you consider that there are only 7 diatonic chords in major
you can narrow that number down as 4 and 2m are parallel major/minor
So you can go to 2m or 4, same functionality
and back to 1 wich can be subbed by 3m

So, In a major turnaround,
l = iii and Vl = ii ,
And is treatet as only 2 functional consonant sounds
Then that leaves you V Vl and VII that you can treat and hear, as dissonant/dominant sounds, leading to the konsonant sounds

V7 is obviusly the dominant of ĺ and so is the Vii m7b5
(9 chord with M3 as lowest note)
VI7 leads to ii

And that covers the 'diatonic' chords of a major tonality, cooking it down to
2 consonant sounds/functionalities, and
2 contrasting dissonant/dominant sounds/functionalities

The minor/major subs gives you more options of how to play the main consonant sounds,

Tonic :
l (iii), vi
Subdominant :
ii, IV

And the all the dominant sounds and subs leading to one of these functions/sounds

You can apply the same concept to a minor turn around

The concept, though it probably sounds a bit complicated at first glance, is actually a simplification

....
To your specific Dm solo example, you can chose only to treat Bb7 and A7 and (play on on B7)

And then treat A7 as Eb7
"Oh yeah that was cool" effect guaranteed

Theoretically, you can think of B7 Bb7 A7 as
F7 Bb7 A7 Dm
So when on B7 you can play F7 stuff (vsub)
Or Cminor blues, if you will

Cmaj7 downbeat
F7(sub) upbeat wierd
Bb7 downbeat
Eb7 (sub) upbeat wierd
Dm downbeat

I rest my case.

[vhollund]

Different people different approaches

[pushkar000]

Plot a graph of deteriorating jazz sales and jazz venues against the academic 'progress' of jazz. We all know the shape of that graph!

There is nothing 'superior' about playing to empty rooms..... but then you could become a jazz academic instead!


Roll on PUNK JAZZ.

If you stop playing the tune....... you're no longer playing the tune. You are playing something else. No wonder Joe Public don't get it. However your complex concepts might impress a jazz student or your Mum perhaps.

Not playing the tune can also be a good direction to go in your solo. And you can be both playing the tune as well as using complex concepts. They are not mutually exclusive.
Ultimately everything is a possibility. Everything is a concept. It's our job to decide which one of the possibilities is appropriate at any given time. Its upto you whether you want to have more options or less. Goes without saying - it would be to your benefit to have more options.

[vhollund]

What I just explained is not really a complex concept, but just the application of basic harmony, with parallel minor/major chords and subs
But I respect and understand that some people have a "simpler" approach, and probably does it very well that way
...just please (!) stop being an ass about it for craps sake, folks !

I like Dizzy Gillespie, you prefer Armstrong, others Coltrane = different approaches to harmony, and that's perfectly fine

[bako]

Lets say a turn around to ii (Dm) like a Cmaj7, Bb7, B7, A7.

I'm guessing that you mean Cma7 B7 Bb7 A7

The root motion is down. Counter motion is an option.

Create ascending skeletal lines that address the chords,
one note per chord, chromatic, scale steps
or some combination of both. Use these skeletal chord lines
to organize melodies.

Just one more possibility.

[vhollund]

^^ Good advice
Easier done with subs
Like : Cmaj F7 Bb7 BbmMaj13 Dm

Or you can also chose to play Em7b5 Eb7 over the whole thing if it's fast enough
Or just Eb7