Melodic Phrasing in Bebop

[mike walker]

"And that's ok. I love it. But, as you say, many improvisers don't fall back on licks, the whole point for these cats is to improvise. And when i hear someone searching with melodies,instantly composing, i get chills up the spine. "


I feel this way most of all then I listen to Keith Jarret on the Standards albums. Undeniable. I feel like every note is meant and felt and each "outburst" is really a development of the last all the way through the solo. It's almost like a different kind of improvisation. You feel like singing along with him or almost that it's coming out of YOU or something.

Man, i nearly fell off my chair when i first heard his intro to Stella from the standards album. His impro from these albums is sublime.

Mike

[fep]

Thanks Mike and all, this improvisation discussion is fascinating and is something I have given a lot of thought to over the years.

Mike, I completely believe people with incredible ears (or as my guitar teacher used to say "Ears like Dumbo") can improvise at this very highest level as you describe. I have a piano teacher. My piano teacher's ears are so good ... it's so beyond my reality that it seems like magic to me. She can play most tunes first time thru with no practice, no sheet music, seemingly better than the orginal. She has perfect pitch, when she listens with focus to music she is constantly transcribing in her mind, and transcribing multiple parts! She says she can't turn this transcribing thing off and has been doing it since she was a child.

In contrast there is me. I think I have much more average ears. As a point of reference I just pulled up a list of beatles songs and picked a tune which i can hum the melody but have never played on my instrument. Now I'm playing the melody to the first couple verses of 'And I Love Her'. I stumble through it on my first pass, second pass I've got it. Not horrible but not that good.

Now my point...

I could try to improve as you describe and may come up with some interesting stuff, I might even fool myself into thinking I was truly improvising as you describe. But it wouldn't be honest. How can someone who can't instantly and perfectly perform any melody they can hum improvise as you describe?

Seems to me that one needs to get the rudiments down cold before they'll be able to truly improvise.

No one is going to be able to pole vault before they learn to run. And, many will never run fast enough or be strong enough to pole vault at all.

[Paul J Edwards]

How can someone who can't instantly and perfectly perform any melody they can hum improvise as you describe?

Seems to me that one needs to get the rudiments down cold before they'll be able to truly improvise.

No one is going to be able to pole vault before they learn to run. And, many will never run fast enough or be strong enough to pole vault at all.

There are some people who just have a gift. There is no getting around that.
Then there are mear mortals who need to sweat and practice each and every concept and phrase.
The winner is the person who perseveres and is tenacious to a fault.

You may not be the best but you can be damn good.

[METOPERARETIRED]

I find it unacceptable to give in and say "I can't improvise", but help is on the way..
First, read just below and realize that in order to go forward, you must first go backwards!
If you can sing along in tune with this song, than you can start 'again' to learn improvistion ~~click link

Now you would have sung Doe a Deer a Female Deer from Sound of Music, and if you sang the intervals Do Re Mee etc. in tune, than you will improvise if you remember the three paragraphs below and follow them to the hilt..


Practice in small bites. Jazz is more cerebral than rock, and there is more theory to absorb. Yes, it can be a physical challenge on the fingers, but you shouldn't let the fingers get ahead of the brain and start running through scales.

Play clear melodic ideas, and your lines will have power..
Listen Listen LISTEN! No jazz guitarist was made alone on an island. Jazz is a musical vernacular, and you need to talk the talk to create your own sentences and stories. Absorb ideas from the greats - Hall, Pass, Christian, Montgomery, and non-guitarists as well - Coltrane, Bird, Davis, Monk, and on and on...

Always practice responsibly - be aware of tension, strain and pain - if this occurs, stop and recuperate. Don't force anything or you could wind up with tendonitis or carpel tunnel syndrome, and be a very sad jazzer!
Record your voice singing (without the help of any instrument at all) and then 'listen' to the playback.. Remember to not be shy when you make this recording,as you can NOT be shy and be a good Musician..


Next step slowly ~~~ Listen to Ella Fitzgerald scat.. Scat is improv.as you know, so without an instrument, scat sing along when you turn down the volume.. The Guitar or any Ax is just a tool to sing scat with.. That'a allit is.. Mind you, you have to practice scales, chords, BUT as the old joke says ~ " Two Bulls at the top of the Hill see all the young cows at the bottom of the hill..One Bull says ' let's run down the hill and screw a couple of the cows ~~ The other Bull says ~~"Let's walk down the hill and get them all ! " The Ella link is below.. Enjoy and remember Miles said less is better than more.. It's the Musical line that is important, not the quantity of arbitrary noodling..

" We all learn when we are young, but we understand when we get older!"

Here's Ella scatting.. Let me know how you do and remember to WALK slowly, very slowly.. Okay?..

Sent with respect and understanding, but with the knowledge to let NO ONE steal you Dreams, especially yourself...

With much humility and 50 + years as a Pro. I am,

YouTube - Ella Fitzgerald scat singing

[mike walker]

fep.
You can totally do it. It takes time. Yes. It takes hard work. Yes. But one of the mos important aspects is, allowing yourself to do it. Allowing youself to hear a note, just one note, and going for that note.
Allow yourself to hear a phrase. Ya might get the notes wrong. But i bet you'll get the rhythm right.
You have to be honest if you give yourself boundaries to work in, Just 5 frets, just 2 unrelated chords, just quarters etc etc. Licks are gone when you introduce boundaries.
Learn as much as you can. Transcribe solos if ya like, you'll learn much from it. But always spend some time on hearing you're own thing, you're own melody.
Could be ya like playing licks. Great! You're happy.
But this lovely debate came out of an old suggestion that Everyone can only improvise 30% of the time. And i don't believe that to be the case.

Sit down, play a chord, and listen in the air for one note. Just one, in your mind, as tho someone was singing it to ya. Now sing it. Now play it.
Get it wrong? Keep trying. When it's right, hear 2 notes, then 3.....

Allow it, without panic, or fear of mistakes.

Mike

[franco6719]

It always seems to come back to the ancient nature vs nurture or talent vs hard work questions. Who knows. My head goes with fep and Paul J Edwards. I don't think that I, or the vast majority of human beings for that matter, will ever be able to improvise in the way that the true monsters of jazz can. And that is also alright.

On the other hand, my heart goes with the very inspirational and fascinating observations made by Herb. At the very least, I will take your advice Herb and actually record myself singing (what an ungodly thing to inflict on myself and others!!), try to scat with Ella or other stuff like that. Heck, there is nothing to lose anyway.

BTW, I have recently bought and really love the album Oscar and Ella.

[Joe Dalton]

If I'm playing on 4 on 6, on the other hand, I hit the series of two-fives and go into a sort of exercise mode. That lick from....no the other one here, there, etc.. This could be a question of experience and time. But, in any case, for tunes like that, it's either licks and patterns to make it through the changes, albeit mechanical and repetitive, or complete BS.

No sorry but that may the case for some, but it's not a fact for everyone.
It's a matter of time probably, but the real concept to improvisation is thinking of those melodic ideas on the fly.
Example: I was playing Black Orpheus and the guy comping decides, "Hey, I feel like putting in some umph." And umph was put in so I react and start playing fast lines and throw out some melodic ideas to match over the changes, some simple some more complex. Now I had never played that tune in such a manner but it was tight, not just to me but to the people listening as well.
I had nothing in stock for what he did but if it was going to sound good I would have to react. That to me is improv.

[mike walker]

No sorry but that may the case for some, but it's not a fact for everyone.
It's a matter of time probably, but the real concept to improvisation is thinking of those melodic ideas on the fly.
Example: I was playing Black Orpheus and the guy comping decides, "Hey, I feel like putting in some umph." And umph was put in so I react and start playing fast lines and throw out some melodic ideas to match over the changes, some simple some more complex. Now I had never played that tune in such a manner but it was tight, not just to me but to the people listening as well.
I had nothing in stock for what he did but if it was going to sound good I would have to react. That to me is improv.

Love this. It's almost the same when you first begin jamming with friends. You don't know what's coming, but when it comes, ya dive in anyway.
Somewhere along the line, that gets lost for quite a few. Licks are safer.
But they just don't have that same buzz, that abandoned beauty, of those first jams we had with friends.

I played with a guy many moons ago, who played what he played no matter what went on around him. No reaction, no organic connection. But i enjoyed it. He swung, played with good feel, and his lines were obvious and easy to comp within that language.
When i play with interaction, it's more exciting for me. When i'm not sure where it's going, it's a thrill ride. But that's just my personal thing.

Sing in the car, or the bath, or out walking, with sinatra and Joni and anyone who moves ya.

Mike

[Joe Dalton]

Love this. It's almost the same when you first begin jamming with friends. You don't know what's coming, but when it comes, ya dive in anyway.
Somewhere along the line, that gets lost for quite a few. Licks are safer.
But they just don't have that same buzz, that abandoned beauty, of those first jams we had with friends.

Mike

For me it's the way I learned to play. My teacher believed my skills and knowledge should always be far beyond whatever I need to play so I could knock it out under any circumstance. A lot of lessons were just him picking a new chord progression and switching between comping and soloing over it.
So I was forced everytime to create something unique over something (usually very complicated) I'd never heard before. Great lessons and a lot of fun.

[mike walker]

I'm self taught. But i used to jam a few times a week with a guy that was learning chords. He used to throw real intricate progressions at me and use his ear to develop them. It was like following a snake in the dark. It sharpened my ears without a doubt, so i understand, completely, where ya coming from.

Mike

[Breezy]

My Opinion:
When improv is done badly, it can range from two old married couples having sex; "ok, now I do this when you do that, now this, now that. ...to a complete indulgent musical masterbation.

When done right, it can be like seeing into the soloist mind, his memories, his genuine opinion of what's just been said. He can give language to things with no words, creating new ways of describing. He comes away having had a catharsis.......and so do you.
Breezy

P.S. I think I accidentally put this on the wrong thread. I mean for it to refer to the thread "Beef with BeBop." I should not be allowed in traffic

[Shmals]

Am I wrong when I say that alot of hard bop and fusion playing kinda lost the art of melodic phrasing? At times, it can seem like a bebop guitar solo (like Martino) sounds more like one big, puzzling math equation, rather than a melodic line. I mean it's lick after lick after lick

I haven't been playing for very long, so I am not a great reference on this account. I do, however, hope that my experience with this same "equation" might shed some light. I felt this very same lack of melodic sense for a long time while listening to bebop. However, after practicing for a while and improvising over the changes I started to be able to hear what the boppers were saying. They are in fact making highly valid statements melodically. Often they are not vocal-like lines, as bebop is a more instrumental idea. I've come to believe it was a reaction to the commercialized jazz (often featuring vocalists) that had come before. It is in many ways a purist jazz for instrumental musicians. A musicians music. Best advice I might give is to just give it time and don't try to understand the lines, but rather let them teach you. Just listen. It's natural.- jmc (good choice of word with "equation")

[franco6719]

I haven't been playing for very long, so I am not a great reference on this account. I do, however, hope that my experience with this same "equation" might shed some light. I felt this very same lack of melodic sense for a long time while listening to bebop. However, after practicing for a while and improvising over the changes I started to be able to hear what the boppers were saying. They are in fact making highly valid statements melodically. Often they are not vocal-like lines, as bebop is a more instrumental idea. I've come to believe it was a reaction to the commercialized jazz (often featuring vocalists) that had come before. It is in many ways a purist jazz for instrumental musicians. A musicians music. Best advice I might give is to just give it time and don't try to understand the lines, but rather let them teach you. Just listen. It's natural.- jmc (good choice of word with "equation")

Yes!! That is exactly what I was thinking about this morning. It has to be faced: jazz is NOT a popular music and probably never will be again. It is a music that appeals almost exclusively to other musicians. It can be extroardinarily frustrating, but the vast majority of ordinary people I come across cannot tell Charlie Parker from Ornette Coleman and think that Oscar Peterson is just playing "too much of nothing", as one non-musician I know concisely put it.

I am currently surrounded by "ordinary people" who think that jazz is Guns n Roses. When I expose to a little bit Miles Davis or something, they just kind of grimace and say "well, everyone has different tastes." Even my brother, who took some guitar lessons as a kid, will say things like "Yeah, that's cool when Django plays fast like that. I like that fast playing. Who's this guy Pass? Kind of boring. Eric Clapton is the best though."

Non-musicians have not the least idea what is involved in jazz music. They don't know that someone is or is not "playing over the changes", "playing creative lines", "outside the changes", "melodic development".. It all sounds like so much nonsense to them because they don't know what "changes" are and can't tell if someone is playing a bunch of arbitrary scales or complex Scofield-like lines. "Yech, what is that? Is he out of tune or something? Why does he play all those wrong notes?"